Who pays whom for event coverage?

[Snowgirl]

I've seen this topic discussed from various angles, but I still have questions. Some photographers pay the event organizers a fee or percentage for the privilege of being the 'official' shooter. Some events hire and pay their 'official' photographer a fee or some other compensation in kind (e.g. free display booth space; announcer advertising; program advertising etc.).

Having done events for four years now I'm getting to the point of wanting to run away. To do a horse show, for example, usually means being on site at LEAST 12 - 16 hours a day for 2 or more days. You're on your feet and running most of the time and there's a diminishing return in terms of print sales - particularly among the consistent winners (how many shots of you and old Dobbin with red ribbon does one diva need?).

This year I've decided that I must make at least SOME money on any shoot. So, when a show approached me recently I told them I had a flat day rate plus they had to provide the booth space and announcer ads in exchange for which I would take all of their presentation photos (for their sponsors) and provide the 8 x 10s plus the same photos in low-res for their association website. In turn, I would be the exclusive photographer and have the right to sell to the competitors etc. Haven't heard back from them. It was a low day rate ($100). Any comments?

[ChatKat]

Each type of event has it's own set of rules.

For the dog shows, they don't charge a day rate but they are official and the owners pay at the show to get their champion's photos taken. No choice there.

For the community events I have been shooting, I have been given advertising space from several publications and editorial articles. From each organization, I get program ad space, I am considered a sponsors of the event. From there I have negotiated various things like cards at each place setting, cards given out by the valet (swanky event), Tent cards at the tables and front page placement of my photographs with advertising inside.

I did one event where I contracted that I would set up a mini studio inside a venue and then before taking any photographs, the subjects would pay met to shoot them and then they received a package - like school photography only not a school. I also did some candid events and made them available to purchase.

There are various options in different situations. You have to find what fits.

All of that said I have also done my homework and know what I need to make daily from spec events. If I don't think that I will make that goal, then I have to look at the networking components of what I am shooting to see if it will be worthwhile in terms of other work.

[Snowgirl]

Originally Posted by ChatKat

Each type of event has it's own set of rules.

For the dog shows, they don't charge a day rate but they are official and the owners pay at the show to get their champion's photos taken. No choice there.

For the community events I have been shooting, I have been given advertising space from several publications and editorial articles. From each organization, I get program ad space, I am considered a sponsors of the event. From there I have negotiated various things like cards at each place setting, cards given out by the valet (swanky event), Tent cards at the tables and front page placement of my photographs with advertising inside.

I did one event where I contracted that I would set up a mini studio inside a venue and then before taking any photographs, the subjects would pay met to shoot them and then they received a package - like school photography only not a school. I also did some candid events and made them available to purchase.

There are various options in different situations. You have to find what fits.

All of that said I have also done my homework and know what I need to make daily from spec events. If I don't think that I will make that goal, then I have to look at the networking components of what I am shooting to see if it will be worthwhile in terms of other work.

Good points. I also try to evaluate individual events based on what I truly need to make (to at least make it worthwhile to be there) and/or what other benefits might accrue.

In two weeks I'm doing a horsey trade show. In that case I have traded my PR skills (that was my first career) for a free booth. I'll be promoting my equine portraits. The event is donating its profits to the Childrens' Wish Foundation so, as a part of that theme, I'm going to raffle off an on-farm portrait session - and give the money to the Foundation. Again, good PR and potential new clients in the database :)

[johng]

I would say it really depends on how much you make on sales to competitors. You mentioned 12 hour days. You said your day rate would be $100. So far you'd be working for $8.33 an hour. Here's the reality of sports shooting - sometimes the revenue simply is NOT worth the time.

For example I just turned down the opportunity to be the event photographer for a local HS wrestling tournament. It just won't generate enough revenue to be worth the hassle. Of course awrestling tournament is a totally different thing than the event you're talking about. But, my point is - while I enjoy shooting wrestling, I recognized the situation as a waste of time for the amount of money I was going to make. 12 hours a day for 2 days is a lot of time. Coming out of that with $400-500 might be worth it to some but for me, my weekends are more valuable than that.

[PupWeb]

1.)Offer something different than a what people can get in their own snapshot. Sure you are a pro and know all about exposure, tonal range, composition etc. etc.. But most people will be happy with their free snapshots.

You do this by adding custom borders, mag covers etc. Like the shots theme parks sale after the coaster.

2.)Print at the event in close to real time. Stick to one print size 4x6 and accept only cash (it's quicker and use the print as a receipt). Get several affordable 4x6 photo printers. Canon Selpie, Epson Charm.

3.)Take orders for larger prints and other products

4.)Print at the event in close to real time. Product in hand beats 3 on the web.

5.)Print at the event in close to real time. Word gets out as people show their friends. Hey that is so neat, I want one of my.......Once they see there ...... they will buy atleast 3 prints.


Tried giving cards with a url to my online galleries = low sales.

Printing at the same type of event = Big Surprise
For example This Friday we set up at a very small awards event my sons where going to be at anyway, only 28 people getting awards. My wife and I set up 30 min before.
Made $130 cash at the 1 hour event and have about another $130 or so in orders. Big seller was the mag style cover with the recipient name and date of event.

Biggest problem....not enough printers to get the product out. People didn't want to wait in line. It was disheartening when I saw all those people brake from the line and watch my money walk out the door. Luckily most have emailed me with orders. But still missed opportunity.

There is more involved though. The devil is in the details. Getting photos ready for print real time is challenging. Also I only print once I have a sale so their is little waste but there is a process to this.

I will write more about my workflow as I get better at it and work out some of the kinks.

-David

[Snowgirl]

Originally Posted by PupWeb

1.)Offer something different than a what people can get in their own snapshot. Sure you are a pro and know all about exposure, tonal range, composition etc. etc.. But most people will be happy with their free snapshots.

You do this by adding custom borders, mag covers etc. Like the shots theme parks sale after the coaster.

2.)Print at the event in close to real time. Stick to one print size 4x6 and accept only cash (it's quicker and use the print as a receipt). Get several affordable 4x6 photo printers. Canon Selpie, Epson Charm.

3.)Take orders for larger prints and other products

4.)Print at the event in close to real time. Product in hand beats 3 on the web.

5.)Print at the event in close to real time. Word gets out as people show their friends. Hey that is so neat, I want one of my.......Once they see there ...... they will buy atleast 3 prints.


Tried giving cards with a url to my online galleries = low sales.

Printing at the same type of event = Big Surprise
For example This Friday we set up at a very small awards event my sons where going to be at anyway, only 28 people getting awards. My wife and I set up 30 min before.
Made $130 cash at the 1 hour event and have about another $130 or so in orders. Big seller was the mag style cover with the recipient name and date of event.

Biggest problem....not enough printers to get the product out. People didn't want to wait in line. It was disheartening when I saw all those people brake from the line and watch my money walk out the door. Luckily most have emailed me with orders. But still missed opportunity.

There is more involved though the devil is in the details. Getting photos ready for print real time is challenging. Also I only print once I have a sale so their is little waste.

I will write more about my workflow as aI get better at it and work out some of the kinks.

-David

I so agree that printing on site in close-to-real-time is ideal Unfortunately, I'm a one-woman show at the moment so that's a bit tricky. I did have "office help" at one event last year and that helped with sales - although still not high enough to justify the time spent and the wage paid to the helper.

The $100 a day basically just covers my travel expenses and meals to be on-site. The only 'profit' per se is actual photo sales.

I'm still interested to see how the workflow goes for your idea, David, and also am looking at options for myself as well. Thanks a lot for your comments.

[Rocketman766]

While I enjoy reading other's ideas and info on how to increase sales, what to do different, how to get it done, workflow, etc., etc...... did this thread stray from the original question? Maybe I just simply misread the question.

In my very very short time in event coverage, I have been the one paying the organization each time. Some require a flat fee and the others request a percentage of sales.

I will continue to watch this and all other threads (and on other forums) dealing with onsite event coverage as I am trying to learn as much as possible.
Lance.

[Snowgirl]

Originally Posted by Glort

For you Snowgirl I would suggest that you will be shooting yourself in the foot to try and do on site printing. Stick to on-site ordering until you at least have another helper and then think about it again pretty hard.
You make money selling not printing.
There is no way you are going to be able to shoot, download, Cull and run the software to show the images, sell and then print and deliver in any way near a timely manner on your own so don't even try.

I made the mistake early in my event photography endeavors of marketing the delivery, not the photograph and excitement, emotion, memory etc people were really buying them for.
I have 4 other people with me when I do events so I do print on site but I now focus on the Picture, not how I deliver it.

I would never even contemplate doing an event unless going into it I was confident I would make some decent money.
I learned many years ago that I can earn nothing sitting on my butt at home in a comfy chair in front of the TV, I do not have to go out and work hard for 12 hours to make nothing.

If you don't think you are going to make money doing an event, Don't do it. Not unless you give up the idea of it doing as a business and are happy to do it for fun alone.

Good points. Thank you. Even at the one event where I had (paid) help, her job was to download, show images and take orders - and that did help ramp up sales - but still not to the point where it was worthwhile on an hourly basis for sure. I think one thing that happens (and these are horse shows, by the way) is that after a while, Suzy Sunshine has lots of pictures of herself and her horse so they no longer mean anything - unless it's a very unique shot (tricky in a dressage environment in a poorly lit indoor arena).

Thanks so much for the thoughtful comments.

[Snowgirl]

Originally Posted by Rocketman766

While I enjoy reading other's ideas and info on how to increase sales, what to do different, how to get it done, workflow, etc., etc...... did this thread stray from the original question? Maybe I just simply misread the question.

In my very very short time in event coverage, I have been the one paying the organization each time. Some require a flat fee and the others request a percentage of sales.

I will continue to watch this and all other threads (and on other forums) dealing with onsite event coverage as I am trying to learn as much as possible.
Lance.

True - we did digress from my original question.

In my area there is a trend toward either bartering between organizers and photographers (e.g. the free booth space etc.) or some token payment to the photographer to at least help offset some expenses - in return for which the organizers receive a certain number of images - either prints and/or on CD - usually presentation shots for their sponsors' thank you notes.

Until recently the photographers took all the risk and I even had some show organizers who would whip out with their P&S cameras to grab presentation shots rather than buy from me - how rude is THAT? That's why I've gone to the - you pay me a fixed fee to be here and I'll give you X shots - more available for purchase at additional cost to the show. If they don't want to go for it, I will no longer be shooting their events. Like Glort - I may as well stay home and sip a cool beer in the shade or take more portraits of my dog (an Aussie, by the way).

[fredjclaus]

What about the types of events that accept a photographer be it paid or you pay them? I have seen many events such as golf tournaments for non-profits, Chamber of Commerce Award ceremonies, and even an upcoming benefit for two children who lost their mother. Do non-profit benefit fundraisers generally pay for an event photographer, or do they look for you to donate your services?

[Snowgirl]

Brilliant and detailed response Glort. Thanks - and I concur 100%.

After losing money for ages, this is my year to make a profit - or at least not lose. Therefore, I will no longer shoot at events where there's a snowball's chance in hell of making any money.

I'm off to an equine expo on the 23rd. Since a part of my business is PR and Media Relations (going back to 25 years in the industry), I've traded those services to the organizers for a free booth, free logo on the website etc. The attendees at the expo will be both show organizers and competitors. In addition to showcasing my work, I'll be offering a new "special". A pre-book package for competitors. i.e. You pay me $X up front to ensure that I attend (show name) and shoot your ride. I haven't work the details out yet, but I know that with what I have in mind I will need a minimum of 10 pre-bookings to make it worthwhile to show up.

For the competitors, the benefit is that they KNOW I'll have shots of their ride for them. Normally, if you're shooting the whole show, it's hit or miss to get shots of everyone - particularly good or usable shots.

I'll let you know how it flies (or not).

No - I will not pay for the privilege of losing money and spending time. It has to be expense-free to me (i.e. the small day rate to cover travel and meals) AND have some other 'perks' (free booth, advertising etc.) or I will go out and shoot some lovely landscapes on my own time. Or spend time with my animals, husband (no no - he's not an 'animal') and friends!

[PupWeb]

I don't think this topic Strayed, it's about making money. If Snowgirl was making money she wouldn't worry about changing her current business plan.

Glort: The size of the pint has nothing to do with quality. The trend has been moving away from larger print sizes to smaller prints that can scrapbook and also digital delivery is going to be the future so get ready(those digital frames are getting bigger and cheaper). Adding the border is done in less than 5 seconds and can be done conmpletely automated. Adding personal info of the event to the border takes longer about 15 seconds but is not done until a sale.

Things to emphasize again:
You have to offer something they can't get with their P&S. I am not familiar with horse events but try to put yourself in Jane Does shoes, probobly the one stealing your shots.
What would make them buy my print?

Also I price to encourage multiple sales like $7.00 for one 4 x 6 and $4.00 for duplicates. People have told me they would pay up to $15 for a 4X6, depends on your market. If you get the first part right people will buy.

Your biggest problem will be handling the orders. That is a big kink I am working on currently.

I do bring my own lighting b/c that is half the battle to a great shot. These are strobes with unbrellas (what ever you need for the subject matter)alienbees radios to trigger. No one steals my shots...this way. Also prearrange this with the event coordinator. When people see your mobile studio they are curious about getting their photo and seeing how they look.

I have people all the time tell me at first they are not interested b/c I took my own or I have it on video and end up buying prints.

Just think about how to offer something the P&S'r can't do. Jane Doe has a nice Powershot and is pretty good at using Google Picasa, what can't she do that I can?

[PupWeb]

Originally Posted by Glort

I'm in a totally different ballpark to most here because Event photography in oz, particularly onsite printing particularly for sports is still a .......
YOURSELF that the event will be a success rather than take the organizers word for it. If you have any doubts, put them to the test by at least sharing the risk such as them making up a shortfall in sales to your minimum rate and if they won't come at that, I walk away.

Awesome advice Glort!

[Snowgirl]

You guys are awesome! Glort - such detailed and thoughtful replies. Ditto PupWeb - good comments and suggestions.

Lighting at a horse show is a problem - there's no static set-up; it's moving targets, normally in a poorly lit arena (poorly lit for photography purposes, I mean). And there may be an issue using any kind of flash set-up, even remote. If a flash caused a horse to spook, someone could get seriously hurt - and the photographer banned quickly :(

I'm going to a trade show next week-end (equine) and many show organizers AND competitors will be there. i've printed off 20 x 30 posters of some of my best shots for display and will be running a digital slide show on a 40" monitor as well. One of the things I'm going to try is "personal paparazzi" - i.e. pre-book me (and pay a virtually non-refundable 50% deposit up front) and I'll shoot YOUR rides. This should work well for both dressage and reining, and would also work for show jumping. Could be done in pleasure and halter classes but BORING.

I'm offering 3 packages - different combinations of prints in each and different numbers of 'rides' per day - and of course they can always buy other prints / sizes / finishes if they wish. I'll see what kind of response I get from the idea.

[Snowgirl]

Originally Posted by Glort

I think The pre-pay model is an excellent one!
It allows you to cover more rings and shoot the people that want pics instead of wasting your time busily shooting the ones that don't.

My problem is with it that I can't get my head around an efficient way of getting the people to sign up at the events I do which are always bit of a bun fight at the start. I'll have to work on it but because I think I could improve my sales using this method.

Trade shows are Gold mines if you work them right.


Would you care to tell us your packages so we can tear them apart?

YOU are a gold mine of help. Thank you so much.
Sure, I'll fess up to my packages (so far - they're a work in progress before show season actually starts in May - launched at another trade show the first week-end).

My theme is 'hire your personal Paparazzi' and, at the moment I'm offering 3 packages - aimed at either Reiners or Dressage Riders - other packages to be developed.

"Walk" includes shooting 2 rides on one day, rider to receive 2 5x7 prints and 10 4x6 prints for $80.

"Trot" includes 2 rides per day on 2 days, 1 8x10, 4 5x7 and 10 4x6 prints for $140

"Canter" includes 4 rides per day over 2 days, 2 8x10, 4 5x7 and 10 4x6 prints for $180

Obviously other sizes are available at additional cost :) Suggestions? Critiques? I also like the idea of pre-book and get a credit toward a big print. May try to incorporate that somehow as well.

[Snowgirl]

Originally Posted by Glort

I think I have illustrated my bias with Smaller print Sizes but that aside, I find it a bit hard to come to grips with multiple print sizes in this market having never done it.


I have considered making it one or two large prints, but a lot of people use them for Gramma gifts or scrapbooking.

I like the Theme of your promotion, I think it will strike a good chord with the riders.

Thanks. I think it will work in that respect - once I get the packages fine tuned.


I'm not sure if I have this right but your selling your services to no particular show and hoping you get 10 bookings per show to make it worthwhile?
If that is the case, Have you thought how you are going to get that number if you don't get them through the show?
I don't know how many riders you get at the shows you do but that would be an ask for the ones I do in that I'm likely to bookings for 10 different shows and to get 10 for each one would be a feat I think. Might be different for the numbers you get.

Also, in your multiple day shoots, are these one show or can they use them over multiple shows? I'd certainly be making them 1 only and also limiting the area you cover although that could limit the bookings you get when they could be worthwhile for major shows. Perhaps drawing up a list of the shows you are going to cover could be worth while.

My flyer actually specifies the shows I'll be covering. Most of the shows are 2- or 3-day events and the flyer specifies (in the case of 2-day shoots) that it's 2 days at one of the specified shows. Now, for an EXORBIANT price I'd be HAPPY to be someone's exclusive Paparazzi for a full day

I think your package pricing is good, it's elevated to my averages ( if they have any relevance at all) but they represent good return for your efforts and that's where you want to be.

The only suggestion I would make given my bias to print size's is to consider dropping at very least the 6x4's and maybe put the images on CD. Cheaper and easier for you and there are benefits you can sell to the clients.

Another package that may be worth considering if you have any demand for them is an all up coverage where you put all the shots taken on the day on disk. CD's are half my sales so may have some appeal to your clients as well.

Also an excellent suggestion. Thanks.

[Snowgirl]

Originally Posted by Glort

Glad to hear you have the shows Specified. I think that is the right way to go and could save a lot of hassel.

Oh YEAH!

On the subject of Day shoots, I would make that known as well. It's not going to confuse any of your other packages and you might just get a Booking on it. If you get one this year, I'm sure You'll be plenty happy.

I learned some time back that if you want to be seen as the best, You have to Offer the premium service for PR value even if no on takes you up on it for a while.

Something a bunch of my clients were talking to me about last year was a set up group shoot. One lady in the club has a very nice arena set up on her property and was asking me about coming out there to shoot her and her daughter where I could set the Jumps up and stand precisely where I wanted to get the perfect pics.

A friend Chimed in that she would love to come out and do the same to make it more worth my while and about 5 minutes later there was excited talk with a group of about 6 parents all coming out and after I shot them Jumping, I could do some Mini glamor shoots in the old barn on the property of the mothers. That could easy be a day worth $2k for my efforts so I'm going to keep pushing that idea in the right direction.

You could mention a similar deal where they hire you for you day rate and split the cost between them and you'll give them all the pics on CD or whatever prints you think appropriate.
As a non Show day, A couple of these this year would also bump things along nicely.

If you can get some cheap basic B/w flyers printed, it may be worth considering offering this as a separate coverage in addition to the shows?

Yet another good idea. Thank you! I made a decision that this WOULD be the year I finally make some money at this...

Last year I took a course in equine photography which was a huge help (skill-wise) and my practice shoots for that involved two of my riding students and their horses. They live on a gorgeous farm with views to die for so it was obviously a huge sacrifice to go there for a day and shoot with them

They ended up buying several prints for themselves and as Christmas gifts for grandparents etc. The grandmother went to Germany to visit family and took some of her prints with her - for other family members to drool over - and that resulted in a few more orders. Yay! So, there's hope...

[Mox]

Great discussion!

I have a question about the idea of being someone's personal paparazzi for the day at a show. I've done this for a friend (for free) at a 3 day event without issue, but I got chased off a fence by the show photographer at a hunter show.

Is there an issue with covering someone for pay at a show with a contracted "official photographer?" It's a service I'd love to offer and that I think there's a market for, but I don't want to step on toes.

[johng]

Originally Posted by Mox

I have a question about the idea of being someone's personal paparazzi for the day. I've done this for a friend (for free) at a 3 day event without issue, but I got chased off a fence by the show photographer at a hunter show.

Is there an issue with covering someone for pay at a show with a contracted "official photographer?" It's a service I'd love to offer and that I think there's a market for, but I don't want to step on toes.

You absolutely can run into issues. Any event held on private land or where tickets are purchased can enter into a contract with a photographer to ensure they are the only photographer allowed to do commercial photography. They can even go so far as to enforce camera restrictions. The rules change when there is controlled entry (i.e. even when someone is using say community fairgrounds for a show with paid admission). The "your on public property" argument doesn't quite hold up. The law isn't that simple. I can't speak to whether there is a market for what you want to do, and unless a photographer has explicit language in their contract that prevents you from doing what you're doing you'd be on solid ground. But they absolutely COULD have that type of language. So, my recommendation is if you wanted to do that type of thing you need to contact the venue/organization putting on the event and finding out what their contract situation is with an event photographer.

[mercphoto]

Originally Posted by Mox

Is there an issue with covering someone for pay at a show with a contracted "official photographer?" It's a service I'd love to offer and that I think there's a market for, but I don't want to step on toes.

If someone is contracted as the official photographer for an event then you won't be able to shoot there.