Originally Posted by Andy

HAHA! I opened myself up for that one.

Actually if you read the responses on line and in the video you will see they sound the same as any problems they have had in the past.. Especially if you go back and read their responses to the Price List Changes and having to use %of Profit. I have heard it all before especially after 5 years on here. I am not going anywhere for the next year but, I am not nearly in like as much as I used to be. Looking for some great improvements, they are seeing it die down and will move on business as normal..

Sign up now and you are locked into the old price until your renewal next year. Simple.

Originally Posted by RookyStudios Ack! I am half way thru my free trial and Finally getting things figured out specific to SM, then tonight I stumbled upon this price increase! I could have sworn that when I signed up just last week, I saw the ability to sell prints, downloads and merchandise for the $150/yr fee....Now I AM just totally loosing my mind, but did I also see that correctly last week? My photography has gotten to a point where I can not keep up with all aspects of customer needs, I need someplace to set my prices after uploading and not worry about anything else. Excuse me while I think outloud.....ZF did come highly recommended from a photog friend....I only have a few days invested here....well, maybe my brain won't explode from learning a Whole New site.....This is just all very unfortunate news at this time. Did I see the plan prices correctly last week?

Originally Posted by jmphotocraft Everyone should keep in mind that next to SmugMug, Zenfolio is relatively new. They are at a place where SmugMug was several years ago. They can afford to be a little freewheeling and to buy business with cut rates. They will experience growing pains like this too, and then watch their prices rise right in line with SmugMug's.

I downgraded smugmug in February and went with Zenfolio. I have found the layout at Zen much more intuitive in regards to having control over my layout. I also got tired of the smug attitude at smugmug. If Zenfolio has a price increase I will pay it. However, Zen also has an upper tier service so hopefully they saw this issue before SM did.

Just stopping in to say Thank you to MomaZunk, rainforest1155, and Pedro Alicea for your replies. After giving it some serious considerations, I have decided to set up shop elsewhere, they have the services that are critical to my business, so it really just makes the most business sense for me at this time. I am one of those that needs a middle ground plan, and while smugmug was starting to really grow on me, I just can't justify that cost even if it is delayed for one year.
Best of luck to all of you photogs and smugmuggers!

Originally Posted by Dreadnote The problem, Neil, is that SmugMug doesn't really believe you. They figure in a couple of weeks this will all blow over and things will go back to business as usual. If you want to get real action you and I and others of like mind will actually have to downgrade or switch providers. Until the dollars start making a mass exodus out of the SmugMug accounts, nothing will change. The sad thing is that by the time that happens SmugMug might be permanently damaged. Oh well, like they say, "you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette".

You're right of course - the SM people aren't dumb enough to NOT expect the reaction they have had... They've just gone to ground and are weathering the storm.

They can afford to lose a LOT of customers by doubling their pro prices... Remember, only Pros are impacted so if they lose less than about 40% of pros, they will retain the same revenue and drop their ongoing storage and support costs significantly.

They're proved by their actions that they don't care about the hobbyist photographer that likes to play with selling images for profit. I don't care what they say anymore - judging by their actions and inaction, that market segment can go jump. Charging $90 for the watermarking feature is great evidence of this - and the deafening silence about the gap between the $60 power and $150 portfolio accounts should be embarrassing.

But what's going to happen is they are going to lose less than 40% of pros - heaps less, maybe 5% will leave and perhaps another 5% will drop to portfolio or power. Smugmug win, $$$wise.

However, I'm telling everyone I know that the great company I host with just alienated me and lost my trust - and I would recommend that they NOT consider Smugmug for their photo hosting or (especially) sales. I'll do this passionately, logically, clearly and honestly. I'll relate how the feature development is glacial, how the US centric nature of the site is crippling for many international pros and how the unmatched customisation is the ONLY reason I am reluctantly continuing to host with them myself.

It's going to take an AMAZINGLY honest and frank response from SM to change my mind - I really really really hope they do make some concessions, but earning back the trust they built up over 7 years and lost in 14 days is nearly inconceivable.

Did you hear that Baldy? OneThumb? Heroes? You burnt 7 years of trust in 14 days.

Regards
Neil G

I am a hobbyist photographer who opted for the Power account originally and then won a one year pro account when I (somehow) won a dgrin challenge. I renewed the pro account, thinking I might try selling some of my photos soon because I have had some specific requests for them. But life keeps intervening - most recently with some family trauma and remodeling the kitchen in the offing - and I wanted to order some prints myself to check the processing before moving forward. Not sure whether I'll manage to explore this whole setting of prices thing before I have to choose whether to renew at the Power, Portfolio, or Business level come April 2013.

It really doesn't make sense for me to opt for the business level unless I get busy and experiment with selling.... Based on my current use of my account, the Smug Mug family is assuming that I might wish to renew at the Portfolio level. Since existing customers will renew at one level and new customers at another, does that mean that if I choose to set prices I need to hurry and change my account setting from portfolio to business before Oct 2012? Hmmm....

One of the reasons I chose SmugMug originally was the ability to password protect some galleries and keep some unlisted and/or unseen by search engines. I have some galleries showing schools, orphanages, churches, etc. in Africa and other parts of the world for a non-profit. It's been great to have some public galleries, others that are hidden and can be made available to a specific audience, and an easy way to safe-guard treasured family photos and the best of my portfolio should my external hard drives fail. I'm not going to leave SmugMug but I do wish we had more lead time on this change.

I hope the folks at SmugMug will consider offering an intermediate option that allows people like me to set prices for photos without paying for a full business level account - restricting volume of sales or some other features. This would help some of us test the waters with selling photos.

Gretchen

Originally Posted by Dreadnote The problem, Neil, is that SmugMug doesn't really believe you. They figure in a couple of weeks this will all blow over and things will go back to business as usual. If you want to get real action you and I and others of like mind will actually have to downgrade or switch providers. Until the dollars start making a mass exodus out of the SmugMug accounts, nothing will change. The sad thing is that by the time that happens SmugMug might be permanently damaged. Oh well, like they say, "you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette".

I think it is permanently damaged, but really in the scale of things it's just a tiny speck on the wall of life, and apart from those here who are miffed it's not big news in the photography world. I'm not holding my breath that anything will change or be added and won't be renewing my account. I have no trust in the company ever delivering on any of it's promises about the new design in the foreseeable future and have serious doubts about it's future viability.

The departure of Andy as COO coincided with the release of the price increase info - he would surely have been aware of SM's plans for this, and likewise stepping down as 'head honcho' here on Dgrin, surely more than just coincidence?

Caroline

Originally Posted by sapphire73 does that mean that if I choose to set prices I need to hurry and change my account setting from portfolio to business before Oct 2012? Hmmm.... One of the reasons I chose SmugMug originally was the ability to password protect some galleries and keep some unlisted and/or unseen by search engines. Gretchen

Hi Gretchen

Nothing will change for you in October - the change in pricing is effective on your next renewal date. The time that change comes into effect is Oct. 15. So, if your renewal were Oct. 16 a Business account would cost $250 whereas if your renewal were Oct. 1 it would be $150 for the Business account.

So you have the time from now to your renewal to decide which account level you will renew at.

All of our accounts offer the ability to password protect galleries and to keep galleries unlisted, and also to keep them from search engines with the Hello World settings.

The new portfolio level account not only provides the same image protection settings as the previous 'pro' account but it allows you to place print orders from any of our labs, as opposed to the Consumer accounts that are limited to ordering from EZPrints. This gives you access to many more products and color correction services by lab technicians.

I hope that helps,

ann

Originally Posted by Ann McRae Hi Gretchen Nothing will change for you in October - the change in pricing is effective on your next renewal date. The time that change comes into effect is Oct. 15. So, if your renewal were Oct. 16 a Business account would cost $250 whereas if your renewal were Oct. 1 it would be $150 for the Business account. So you have the time from now to your renewal to decide which account level you will renew at. All of our accounts offer the ability to password protect galleries and to keep galleries unlisted, and also to keep them from search engines with the Hello World settings. The new portfolio level account not only provides the same image protection settings as the previous 'pro' account but it allows you to place print orders from any of our labs, as opposed to the Consumer accounts that are limited to ordering from EZPrints. This gives you access to many more products and color correction services by lab technicians. I hope that helps, ann

Thank you, Ann. I am glad that I'll have some time to figure this all out.

Originally Posted by TalkieT You're right of course - the SM people aren't dumb enough to NOT expect the reaction they have had... They've just gone to ground and are weathering the storm. They can afford to lose a LOT of customers by doubling their pro prices... Remember, only Pros are impacted so if they lose less than about 40% of pros, they will retain the same revenue and drop their ongoing storage and support costs significantly. They're proved by their actions that they don't care about the hobbyist photographer that likes to play with selling images for profit. I don't care what they say anymore - judging by their actions and inaction, that market segment can go jump. Charging $90 for the watermarking feature is great evidence of this - and the deafening silence about the gap between the $60 power and $150 portfolio accounts should be embarrassing. But what's going to happen is they are going to lose less than 40% of pros - heaps less, maybe 5% will leave and perhaps another 5% will drop to portfolio or power. Smugmug win, $$$wise. However, I'm telling everyone I know that the great company I host with just alienated me and lost my trust - and I would recommend that they NOT consider Smugmug for their photo hosting or (especially) sales. I'll do this passionately, logically, clearly and honestly. I'll relate how the feature development is glacial, how the US centric nature of the site is crippling for many international pros and how the unmatched customisation is the ONLY reason I am reluctantly continuing to host with them myself. It's going to take an AMAZINGLY honest and frank response from SM to change my mind - I really really really hope they do make some concessions, but earning back the trust they built up over 7 years and lost in 14 days is nearly inconceivable. Did you hear that Baldy? OneThumb? Heroes? You burnt 7 years of trust in 14 days. Regards Neil G

Well thought out and written.

Hey Neil,

Thanks for the candid response and sticking with us for awhile longer. Of course it kills us to read these, especially the thought of burning the trust in 14 days that we tried to hard to win over 7 years.

I studied Neflix's price change deeply before we made ours and it's probably one of the things that caused us to wait longer than we should have done, and then make a bigger raise than we wanted to make. I didn't envy their situation at all, because Hollywood got sick of seeing unlimited streaming for pennies per click of The Wizard of Oz, so they upped what they were charging Netflix for content. It seemed to me that Netflix had an awful choice: either raise prices and make many of their customers mad (800,000 abandoned them), or lose so much content that all of their customers get mad. In their case, they are doing well now, but everyone will forever remember the raise in price.

The choices for us seemed similar. When cloud storage failed to drop in cost like consumer storage did, we could have gone to a lower grade of storage like almost all our competitors, cut back on our heroes, abandoned online chat, etc., but we felt those things would make all our customers unhappy.

Also, we could have chosen to rush out some of the things we're working on and make them less great, but we thought that this time we wanted to make them better than we could if we rushed them out. If you're wondering why Don and I are posting less now, it's because we feel that the best thing we can do now is immerse ourselves in the improvements we've said we're working on.

I hope this helps.

All the best,
Baldy

Originally Posted by Baldy Hey Neil, Thanks for the candid response and sticking with us for awhile longer. Of course it kills us to read these, especially the thought of burning the trust in 14 days that we tried to hard to win over 7 years. I studied Neflix's price change deeply before we made ours and it's probably one of the things that caused us to wait longer than we should have done, and then make a bigger raise than we wanted to make. I didn't envy their situation at all, because Hollywood got sick of seeing unlimited streaming for pennies per click of The Wizard of Oz, so they upped what they were charging Netflix for content. It seemed to me that Netflix had an awful choice: either raise prices and make many of their customers mad (800,000 abandoned them), or lose so much content that all of their customers get mad. In their case, they are doing well now, but everyone will forever remember the raise in price. The choices for us seemed similar. When cloud storage failed to drop in cost like consumer storage did, we could have gone to a lower grade of storage like almost all our competitors, cut back on our heroes, abandoned online chat, etc., but we felt those things would make all our customers unhappy. Also, we could have chosen to rush out some of the things we're working on and make them less great, but we thought that this time we wanted to make them better than we could if we rushed them out. If you're wondering why Don and I are posting less now, it's because we feel that the best thing we can do now is immerse ourselves in the improvements we've said we're working on. I hope this helps. All the best, Baldy

Thank you for coming back on to reply. I haven't watched your podcast, because I pretty much never "single-task". I sure wish you'd supply the written version as well. I've asked the Support Heroes, but apparently they didn't have time to listen to it and write down the key points either.

There's one difference between Netflix and you: Netflix didn't have an alternative like the Power plan to which buyers who were priced out of the top tier could flee.

The basic math is that you don't gain a thing from this price increase if half of your current Pro customers elect to stay with you but downgrade to Power. You lose $90 on them, gain $100 on those who remain in Business, or hold on those who select Portfolio. Meanwhile, total storage used is unchanged.

I have two accounts currently classified as Business under your new rules. Both are moving to Power at renewal because they don't generate enough sales revenue to justify the higher price. I hope I am the exception rather than the rule, because if 50% or more of the Pros don't pay the increase but also don't leave, the model breaks.

Originally Posted by Baldy Hey Neil, Thanks for the candid response and sticking with us for awhile longer. [snip] If you're wondering why Don and I are posting less now, it's because we feel that the best thing we can do now is immerse ourselves in the improvements we've said we're working on. I hope this helps. All the best, Baldy

Chris - Your 'response' is a heartbreaking example of what the problem is...

I wrote about how questions on the $90 chasm between power and portfolio had been ignored and you ignored it again.

I wrote about how you are (in my eyes) telling the hobbyist pro community to go jump and you neglect to mention it or even challenge this in any way.

Most damning, I wrote "It's going to take an AMAZINGLY honest and frank response from SM to change my mind" and I got a disingenuous piece of bubblegum rubbish in response...

Don't get me wrong. I am NOT saying don't raise your prices... I'm not even saying $300 is too much for the pro level package.

I am saying your company doesn't have a clue how to manage this process and your continued policy of ignoring the hard questions paints you in an increasingly bad light.

You didn't answer anything I raised, you just took a turn typing.

Regards
Neil Gardner

It is time to let it go guys. It was a calculated decision on the part of SmugMug. They knew a lot of us would be unhappy and some would leave, but they decided that it was worth it.

Originally Posted by Baldy Hey Neil, It seemed to me that Netflix had an awful choice: either raise prices and make many of their customers mad (800,000 abandoned them), or lose so much content that all of their customers get mad. In their case, they are doing well now, but everyone will forever remember the raise in price. The choices for us seemed similar. When cloud storage failed to drop in cost like consumer storage did, we could have gone to a lower grade of storage like almost all our competitors, cut back on our heroes, abandoned online chat, etc., but we felt those things would make all our customers unhappy.

They figure after the smoke clears they will still be doing well, just like Netflix. They are NOT going to do ANYTHING to win you back. This is the new reality. It is time to move on and let it go. Maybe that means leaving, or maybe it means downgrading, but it is a waste of time trying to offer solutions to people who have already made up their minds. Your just going to be (remain) frustrated.

Sorry to say it, but we all should just start to solidify our plans and explore viable options and then get back to our photography, the thing we all love.

I shoot sports for the local high school as much as a community service as anything else. I set prices just enough to try and pay for the website and help offset some of the costs like software renewals. The new price increase hits me hard. I'll either have to go more commercial or look for another alternative.

Originally Posted by TalkieT Chris - Your 'response' is a heartbreaking example of what the problem is... I wrote about how questions on the $90 chasm between power and portfolio had been ignored and you ignored it again. I wrote about how you are (in my eyes) telling the hobbyist pro community to go jump and you neglect to mention it or even challenge this in any way. Most damning, I wrote "It's going to take an AMAZINGLY honest and frank response from SM to change my mind" and I got a disingenuous piece of bubblegum rubbish in response... Don't get me wrong. I am NOT saying don't raise your prices... I'm not even saying $300 is too much for the pro level package. I am saying your company doesn't have a clue how to manage this process and your continued policy of ignoring the hard questions paints you in an increasingly bad light. You didn't answer anything I raised, you just took a turn typing. Regards Neil Gardner

This boils down why I downgraded and will eventually leave when renewal is up. When the pricelists were changed, I and other asked a pointed a question several times about would we be able to actually set a price without having to plug in a formula. All we got were how wonderful this would be and how thrilled we should feel because this will allow for new services.

Then, those of us that were complaining were told the loudest complainers were the ones that didn't make as much as the pros who did like the new pricelist. This brought up the question does smugmug look at our revenue and base the importance of our complaints on how much money we make? This of course was denied but they had to be looking to even know the fact.

The recent price increase without a middle ground service for hobbyists and casual pros is another indicator the middle ground is something SM is not interested in.

Originally Posted by jonh68 TWhen the pricelists were changed, I and other asked a pointed a question several times about would we be able to actually set a price without having to plug in a formula.

Which is feedback we listened to and in result extended the pricelist feature to allow you to directly enter a retail price for products.

Originally Posted by Spilot77 I shoot sports for the local high school as much as a community service as anything else. I set prices just enough to try and pay for the website and help offset some of the costs like software renewals. The new price increase hits me hard. I'll either have to go more commercial or look for another alternative.

We have a similar situation in which profits from the sale of prints to parents cover the costs of our nonprofit website, and I was thinking about how we could adjust to the new reality here.

Our plan is to add a couple bucks to the fee for each event and include free access to the digital images. They can order from SmugMug at their regular prices, or download and get prints from any of the many suppliers out there. It's actually a win-win, since we only get orders from about 25-30% of parents, and this way we'd have guaranteed revenue from 100%, and more parents could get access to their pictures.

Maybe your school's parents' organization (or booster club) can spot you a few hundred in return for access to all the pictures.

Originally Posted by Dreadnote It is time to let it go guys. It was a calculated decision on the part of SmugMug. They knew a lot of us would be unhappy and some would leave, but they decided that it was worth it. They figure after the smoke clears they will still be doing well, just like Netflix. They are NOT going to do ANYTHING to win you back. This is the new reality. It is time to move on and let it go. Maybe that means leaving, or maybe it means downgrading, but it is a waste of time trying to offer solutions to people who have already made up their minds. Your just going to be (remain) frustrated. Sorry to say it, but we all should just start to solidify our plans and explore viable options and then get back to our photography, the thing we all love.

Probably true, but the fact remains that they have opened a large gap in their service levels where semi-pros live, and they have not even suggested what they might do about that. I started this thread in hopes they would, but apparently they aren't reading it. **EDIT - somehow I missed Baldy's post above, my sincere apologies. I appreciate the post, but still no plan to close the gap.

I hope for their sake they have done the math and concluded that they have enough high volume pros who will not leave AND not drop to the Power level.