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dbveto · Oct-11-2012, 07:41 AM #1

I was contacted by a Team rep asking if I knew anyone so I decided to post here.

Chicago Semi pro football team looking for a volunteer Photographer, team has been in existence over 20 years. If you don't have experience shooting sports come get some, if you have some experience add this to it. Season is June to October (shooting from the sidelines)with some other opportunity's such as tryouts or player head shots. Come join a team of great individuals in a great organization.
can contact Steve at 708-378-0840the or email at sliwka@att.net

johng · Oct-12-2012, 04:16 AM #2

Assuming "volunteer" means "unpaid" - So basically come be a slave? Give away work that a professional organization should have to pay for? It's one thing to do charity work. But, this isn't charity. If you're a web designer, are you going to come design their website for free? If you're a tax accountant are you going to volunteer to do their taxes for free? The guy serving peanuts gets paid, if you're a photographer you should get paid too.

If you're just starting out in sports photography, don't be misled into believing you progress faster by shooting a higher level of play. Nonsense. In fact, there are more restrictions. Shoot youth sports - you can get closer to the action. Again, would you sell concessions for the team for free? If they want free labor this is a bad, bad deal.

dbveto · Oct-12-2012, 05:38 AM #3

Quote:

Originally Posted by johng

Assuming "volunteer" means "unpaid" - So basically come be a slave? Give away work that a professional organization should have to pay for? It's one thing to do charity work. But, this isn't charity. If you're a web designer, are you going to come design their website for free? If you're a tax accountant are you going to volunteer to do their taxes for free? The guy serving peanuts gets paid, if you're a photographer you should get paid too.

If you're just starting out in sports photography, don't be misled into believing you progress faster by shooting a higher level of play. Nonsense. In fact, there are more restrictions. Shoot youth sports - you can get closer to the action. Again, would you sell concessions for the team for free? If they want free labor this is a bad, bad deal.

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You have helped me out a lot with the comments about my photo's that I have posted(the ones I think are good enough) and I agree with what you are saying but in this your wrong (I blame myself for not explaining better). I don't know how all of the teams are run but I do know these teams do not make any money and ALL of their staff are volunteers. I will go into a bit more detail about the team I shoot for, they are listed as a nonprofit organization and any money they do make goes into scholarships and the team (new uniforms or travel expenses). This is not a money making venture I make about 200.00 a season from the sale of photos I really do it because I love the game. I shoot from the sidelines at every game (I assume the liability) when the team travels I can ride the team bus or drive myself. At the games I shoot what I want and will occasionally be asked to take other photos like player head shots or any give always like the scholarships..

zSCOTTz · Oct-14-2012, 04:38 AM #4

I wouldnt do it either, not for free. The only time I do free is when I have nothing for that day and I see some youth football games across the street from me, I will go shoot that and I still end up making a quick 100 to 200 bucks in sales from parents after directing them to my website, along with gaining new clients for family or senior pics.

Photogbiker · Oct-14-2012, 07:27 AM #5

As an amateur myself I can see it would be fun to shoot a pro football game from the sidelines, but have to lean towards the "they need to pay" camp on this one. If you want to donate services go to an inner city school and shoot and give the kids a print or two. They probably haven't had a shot of themselves playing, ever.

As for non-profit, there is a big difference between a not for profit charity (501(c)3 per IRS) such as United Way, a church, or a homeless shelter and a commercial venture that just doesn't make much profit or even loses money. Donating photography services to a true charity is something we all should do occasionally. A business that is for profit, just not making much money or actually losing money is a different story. There hasn't been a commercial airline in this country (except Southwest) that has made money, yet I doubt a commercial photographer would shoot their advertising for free.

Do what feels right to you and if being "paid" in the perks of watching football is enough, then have a blast. Just wanted to weigh in on the difference between a non-profit and an unprofitable business.

Post some pics, since that is what this forum is really about.

dbveto · Oct-15-2012, 11:14 AM #6

Ok Fine you guys would not do it so why even bother posting to this?

I do volunteer for another team, I enjoy shooting the game and so far I have gotten 3 weddings(paid) 2 events (1 paid) 4 family shoots (3paid) and as far as volunteering elsewhere I am shooting for a Cancer benefit on Sunday.

I posted her because I enjoy shooting for the team I shoot and when The other team asked if I knew anyone that would shoot their games I figured I would share it here, which I now found was a mistake because instead of a thread about a team looking for a photography it has now become a thread on Why NOT to do it and maybe I am partially to blame because maybe I did not explain it well enough.

Oh and by the way if I read a thread that I am not interested in I don't post.

johng · Oct-15-2012, 11:33 AM #7

Dennis - it's great that you enjoy working with these organizations. However, for novices that are looking to build experience, they have to be careful - there is a tremendous push by organizations to take advantage of naive people and to give "sideline access" in trade for a service those organizations usually have to pay for. The point some of us are trying to make is those new to sports shooting should not completely devalue the service they are providing. It's one thing to provide a service to a charity you believe in. And, if novices here believe in the charity of this semi-pro football team then by all means they should consider providing services to this charity.

Some of us also want to make novices aware that if they want to be paid in the future, their portfolio is not judged by the level of play they cover. In other words, having photos of a "semi-pro" football team doesn't rate higher than images of a youth or HS football team.

Generally speaking, giving away photographic services can be bad for the business of photography. Now, some people don't care and that is their choice.

So, bottom line my opinion is this: if this is a charity a person considering the offer should consider it as just work for charity - the notion that it will build their resume as a sports photographer I disagree with. That's all.

Doesn't mean either one of us is right or wrong - just means we have different opinions. There is nothing wrong with that. Novices considering the offer can contemplate different opinions and form their own. That's why I posted (and am posting again). Just because you created the tread doesn't mean your opinion is the only relevant one for other people to consider.

T. Bombadil · Oct-15-2012, 01:23 PM #8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Photogbiker

As for non-profit, there is a big difference between a not for profit charity (501(c)3 per IRS) such as United Way, a church, or a homeless shelter and a commercial venture that just doesn't make much profit or even loses money. Donating photography services to a true charity is something we all should do occasionally. A business that is for profit, just not making much money or actually losing money is a different story. There hasn't been a commercial airline in this country (except Southwest) that has made money, yet I doubt a commercial photographer would shoot their advertising for free.

Your point about non-profit being different than unprofitable is a good one - except in this case, the OP said it is an all volunteer organization.

ASkip · Oct-15-2012, 01:28 PM #9

Hi,
Just thought I'd chime in from the non-pro side of things... this kind of football shooting sounds really fun to me. I don't live anywhere near Chicago though. (I'm in California). But I figure more practice is always good. Seems to me some parents might want to get in some extra practice so they can take better pictures of their own kids and thus posting here seems perfectly fair.

and here I'll throw in a football picture just to make it a picture-y post. ha.

Good luck finding some help.
Anna

jmphotocraft · Oct-15-2012, 01:29 PM #10

I tend to agree with John, and I am in a similar situation myself. I shoot my town's little league, and it makes me decent money as a side gig. Now, the little league board of directors is a group of people who put a lot of time and effort into the league all year long, probably more hours than I spend on the photo job. The board is all volunteers, they do not make any money off the league, and it takes time away from their families. A lot of them are my friends. I make a significant amount of money off the league. Is this wrong? I don't think so, because parents are not obligated to buy my photos, I do not charge the league anything, and I am performing a service. The company that mows the fields makes money off the league, so should I, right? Or does the fact that I am doing it in my own town and my kids are in the league change things? I don't think so. They hired an agency to do it before I came along. Shooting the league has also gotten me referrals for other gigs, just like you, so the volunteerism isn't a factor there.

We bother posting to this because we believe this is bad for the profession. I could see maybe a rank amateur with no experience, a Rebel and a 70-300 doing this for free as a first time thing. Or I could see an accomplished amateur or even pro who is directly involved with the team and invested in its success, like a player's parent. But if the league is not getting this already, and it wants quality shots, they should pay for them.

dbveto · Oct-15-2012, 01:49 PM #11

This was intended to get some help for a team/organization that I am a fan of not a thread about why someone should not do it? The thread is total moved away from it's intent.
I do know a couple of other photographers that have successful studios and one has even shot a few NFL games because he enjoys it.

jmphotocraft · Oct-15-2012, 06:40 PM #12

Edited - I suppose it's fair enough to come here looking for a noob or a student who wants to get their feet wet for free. Just don't expect greatness.

johng · Oct-16-2012, 06:25 AM #13

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbveto

This was intended to get some help for a team/organization that I am a fan of not a thread about why someone should not do it? The thread is total moved away from it's intent.
I do know a couple of other photographers that have successful studios and one has even shot a few NFL games because he enjoys it.

Yep - but in order for the team to get that help, it requires a photographer to shoot for free. So, it's completely on-point to discuss the pros/cons of working for free for this type of organization.

This is a discussion forum - not want ads. I think it's great that you posted this in the spirit of helping an organization you like and in the spirit of novices getting some experience. But, I also think it's completely on-topic to discuss the potential down-sides of this particular opportunity. Some things those novices might not be aware of. This forum exists for the benefit of sports photographers not the benefit of businesses or charities. I think it's unfortunate that you can't appreciate discussions on the merits of working for free for an organization like the one under discussion.

johng · Oct-16-2012, 06:37 AM #14

Forgot to mention something else - you can see from Dennis' post that he assumes liability. For novices considering this - you should make sure you are bonded or have liability insurance for this type of work. Even forgetting sue-happy people, medical treatment is expensive. Even if all an injured player wants is their medical bills covered, can you afford $10,000? Sure, the probability is low someone will get injured as a result of a collision with you. But, in the rare instance it does occur you don't want to lose your house just because you enjoy your hobby.

jmphotocraft · Oct-16-2012, 06:54 AM #15

Quote:

Originally Posted by johng

This is a discussion forum - not want ads.

Indeed, and it's an international forum, not craigslist.

dbveto · Oct-16-2012, 07:07 AM #16

Johng You are correct. I guess I was surprised at all of the comments against it, I may have just not started with a correct explanation. Most of the Teams I know of don't make any money and the ones that do put it back into the community. The liability may be the wrong way to say it, If I get hurt I am responsible for my own medical.
Like I said earlier this is not necessarily for Noobs/beginers as I have met at least two other photographers that have successful studios and one that has shot NFL (as a fill in).
The Team I shoot for will have between 800-1500 fans at each game most other teams are way less, I do it because I love the game and as a side benefit I have pick up some paid gigs from it.

Yes people have to be careful with this type of shooting 2 years ago I shot indoor for a different team and it was a nightmare with broken promises and having to wait 6 months for money promised to me.

I started this post because I know this teams management and a bunch of their players and they would appreciate any Photographer.

dbveto · Oct-16-2012, 07:09 AM #17

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmphotocraft

Indeed, and it's an international forum, not craigslist.

In my very first post I said I was not sure if this was the correct area to post this there are area where people post items for sale.

johng · Oct-16-2012, 07:17 AM #18

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbveto

Johng The liability may be the wrong way to say it, If I get hurt I am responsible for my own medical..

No, liability is the correct word. If a player gets hurt colliding with YOU, he can sue YOU. You are potentially liable for HIS injuries. Note I say potentially. That's why bonding or liability insurance is a very important consideration for any shooter. Most people think about the risk to themselves being injured. But they often don't think about what happens if someone else gets hurt. And in a collision anything can happen. Just something to be aware of any time you are a photographer shooting from somewhere other than the stands that the general public is located in.

jmphotocraft · Oct-16-2012, 08:39 AM #19

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbveto

In my very first post I said I was not sure if this was the correct area to post this there are area where people post items for sale.

Umm, no you didn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbveto

I was contacted by a Team rep asking if I knew anyone so I decided to post here.

Chicago Semi pro football team looking for a volunteer Photographer, team has been in existence over 20 years. If you don't have experience shooting sports come get some, if you have some experience add this to it. Season is June to October (shooting from the sidelines)with some other opportunity's such as tryouts or player head shots. Come join a team of great individuals in a great organization.
can contact Steve at 708-378-0840the or email at sliwka@att.net

But it's fine. If someone competent at shooting sports wants to shoot your league just for their own enjoyment and experience and as a favor, then more power to you both.

I think sometimes pros' feathers get ruffled when they sense an amateur "stealing" their business, or an organization trying to circumvent their services. But a pro whose work speaks for itself has nothing to worry about.

dbveto · Oct-16-2012, 01:27 PM #20

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmphotocraft

Umm, no you didn't.

Sorry I typed my original post offline then copied and pasted and I must have not had the first line selected.


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Oct-11-2012, 07:41 AM #1
dbveto ^OP Major grins Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 656	Chicago Semi pro football team looking for a volunteer Photographer I was contacted by a Team rep asking if I knew anyone so I decided to post here. Chicago Semi pro football team looking for a volunteer Photographer, team has been in existence over 20 years. If you don't have experience shooting sports come get some, if you have some experience add this to it. Season is June to October (shooting from the sidelines)with some other opportunity's such as tryouts or player head shots. Come join a team of great individuals in a great organization. can contact Steve at 708-378-0840the or email at sliwka@att.net __________________ Dennis http://www.realphotoman.com/ Work in progress http://www.realphotoman.net/ Zenfolio 10% off Referral Code: 1KH-5HX-5HU

Oct-12-2012, 04:16 AM #2
johng Sports Shooter Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,487	Assuming "volunteer" means "unpaid" - So basically come be a slave? Give away work that a professional organization should have to pay for? It's one thing to do charity work. But, this isn't charity. If you're a web designer, are you going to come design their website for free? If you're a tax accountant are you going to volunteer to do their taxes for free? The guy serving peanuts gets paid, if you're a photographer you should get paid too. If you're just starting out in sports photography, don't be misled into believing you progress faster by shooting a higher level of play. Nonsense. In fact, there are more restrictions. Shoot youth sports - you can get closer to the action. Again, would you sell concessions for the team for free? If they want free labor this is a bad, bad deal.

Oct-14-2012, 04:38 AM #4
zSCOTTz Major grins Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Jackson Michigan Posts: 169	I wouldnt do it either, not for free. The only time I do free is when I have nothing for that day and I see some youth football games across the street from me, I will go shoot that and I still end up making a quick 100 to 200 bucks in sales from parents after directing them to my website, along with gaining new clients for family or senior pics.

Oct-14-2012, 07:27 AM #5
Photogbiker Exploring the desert Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Cave Creek AZ Posts: 229	As an amateur myself I can see it would be fun to shoot a pro football game from the sidelines, but have to lean towards the "they need to pay" camp on this one. If you want to donate services go to an inner city school and shoot and give the kids a print or two. They probably haven't had a shot of themselves playing, ever. As for non-profit, there is a big difference between a not for profit charity (501(c)3 per IRS) such as United Way, a church, or a homeless shelter and a commercial venture that just doesn't make much profit or even loses money. Donating photography services to a true charity is something we all should do occasionally. A business that is for profit, just not making much money or actually losing money is a different story. There hasn't been a commercial airline in this country (except Southwest) that has made money, yet I doubt a commercial photographer would shoot their advertising for free. Do what feels right to you and if being "paid" in the perks of watching football is enough, then have a blast. Just wanted to weigh in on the difference between a non-profit and an unprofitable business. Post some pics, since that is what this forum is really about.

Oct-15-2012, 11:14 AM #6
dbveto ^OP Major grins Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 656	Ok Fine you guys would not do it so why even bother posting to this? I do volunteer for another team, I enjoy shooting the game and so far I have gotten 3 weddings(paid) 2 events (1 paid) 4 family shoots (3paid) and as far as volunteering elsewhere I am shooting for a Cancer benefit on Sunday. I posted her because I enjoy shooting for the team I shoot and when The other team asked if I knew anyone that would shoot their games I figured I would share it here, which I now found was a mistake because instead of a thread about a team looking for a photography it has now become a thread on Why NOT to do it and maybe I am partially to blame because maybe I did not explain it well enough. Oh and by the way if I read a thread that I am not interested in I don't post. __________________ Dennis http://www.realphotoman.com/ Work in progress http://www.realphotoman.net/ Zenfolio 10% off Referral Code: 1KH-5HX-5HU

Oct-15-2012, 11:33 AM #7
johng Sports Shooter Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,487	Dennis - it's great that you enjoy working with these organizations. However, for novices that are looking to build experience, they have to be careful - there is a tremendous push by organizations to take advantage of naive people and to give "sideline access" in trade for a service those organizations usually have to pay for. The point some of us are trying to make is those new to sports shooting should not completely devalue the service they are providing. It's one thing to provide a service to a charity you believe in. And, if novices here believe in the charity of this semi-pro football team then by all means they should consider providing services to this charity. Some of us also want to make novices aware that if they want to be paid in the future, their portfolio is not judged by the level of play they cover. In other words, having photos of a "semi-pro" football team doesn't rate higher than images of a youth or HS football team. Generally speaking, giving away photographic services can be bad for the business of photography. Now, some people don't care and that is their choice. So, bottom line my opinion is this: if this is a charity a person considering the offer should consider it as just work for charity - the notion that it will build their resume as a sports photographer I disagree with. That's all. Doesn't mean either one of us is right or wrong - just means we have different opinions. There is nothing wrong with that. Novices considering the offer can contemplate different opinions and form their own. That's why I posted (and am posting again). Just because you created the tread doesn't mean your opinion is the only relevant one for other people to consider.

Oct-15-2012, 01:28 PM #9
ASkip Major grins Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SoCal Posts: 222	Hi, Just thought I'd chime in from the non-pro side of things... this kind of football shooting sounds really fun to me. I don't live anywhere near Chicago though. (I'm in California). But I figure more practice is always good. Seems to me some parents might want to get in some extra practice so they can take better pictures of their own kids and thus posting here seems perfectly fair. and here I'll throw in a football picture just to make it a picture-y post. ha. Good luck finding some help. Anna

Oct-15-2012, 01:29 PM #10
jmphotocraft GWC for hire Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Portland.ME.USA Posts: 1,590	I tend to agree with John, and I am in a similar situation myself. I shoot my town's little league, and it makes me decent money as a side gig. Now, the little league board of directors is a group of people who put a lot of time and effort into the league all year long, probably more hours than I spend on the photo job. The board is all volunteers, they do not make any money off the league, and it takes time away from their families. A lot of them are my friends. I make a significant amount of money off the league. Is this wrong? I don't think so, because parents are not obligated to buy my photos, I do not charge the league anything, and I am performing a service. The company that mows the fields makes money off the league, so should I, right? Or does the fact that I am doing it in my own town and my kids are in the league change things? I don't think so. They hired an agency to do it before I came along. Shooting the league has also gotten me referrals for other gigs, just like you, so the volunteerism isn't a factor there. We bother posting to this because we believe this is bad for the profession. I could see maybe a rank amateur with no experience, a Rebel and a 70-300 doing this for free as a first time thing. Or I could see an accomplished amateur or even pro who is directly involved with the team and invested in its success, like a player's parent. But if the league is not getting this already, and it wants quality shots, they should pay for them. __________________ -Jack "I bought a new camera, it's very advanced. You don't even need it." - Steven Wright Last edited by jmphotocraft; Oct-16-2012 at 06:53 AM.

Oct-15-2012, 01:49 PM #11
dbveto ^OP Major grins Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 656	This was intended to get some help for a team/organization that I am a fan of not a thread about why someone should not do it? The thread is total moved away from it's intent. I do know a couple of other photographers that have successful studios and one has even shot a few NFL games because he enjoys it. __________________ Dennis http://www.realphotoman.com/ Work in progress http://www.realphotoman.net/ Zenfolio 10% off Referral Code: 1KH-5HX-5HU

Oct-15-2012, 06:40 PM #12
jmphotocraft GWC for hire Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Portland.ME.USA Posts: 1,590	Edited - I suppose it's fair enough to come here looking for a noob or a student who wants to get their feet wet for free. Just don't expect greatness. __________________ -Jack "I bought a new camera, it's very advanced. You don't even need it." - Steven Wright Last edited by jmphotocraft; Oct-16-2012 at 04:26 AM.

Oct-16-2012, 06:37 AM #14
johng Sports Shooter Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,487	Forgot to mention something else - you can see from Dennis' post that he assumes liability. For novices considering this - you should make sure you are bonded or have liability insurance for this type of work. Even forgetting sue-happy people, medical treatment is expensive. Even if all an injured player wants is their medical bills covered, can you afford $10,000? Sure, the probability is low someone will get injured as a result of a collision with you. But, in the rare instance it does occur you don't want to lose your house just because you enjoy your hobby.

Oct-16-2012, 07:07 AM #16
dbveto ^OP Major grins Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 656	Johng You are correct. I guess I was surprised at all of the comments against it, I may have just not started with a correct explanation. Most of the Teams I know of don't make any money and the ones that do put it back into the community. The liability may be the wrong way to say it, If I get hurt I am responsible for my own medical. Like I said earlier this is not necessarily for Noobs/beginers as I have met at least two other photographers that have successful studios and one that has shot NFL (as a fill in). The Team I shoot for will have between 800-1500 fans at each game most other teams are way less, I do it because I love the game and as a side benefit I have pick up some paid gigs from it. Yes people have to be careful with this type of shooting 2 years ago I shot indoor for a different team and it was a nightmare with broken promises and having to wait 6 months for money promised to me. I started this post because I know this teams management and a bunch of their players and they would appreciate any Photographer. __________________ Dennis http://www.realphotoman.com/ Work in progress http://www.realphotoman.net/ Zenfolio 10% off Referral Code: 1KH-5HX-5HU