Time to move on

135678

Comments

  • bike21bike21 Registered Users Posts: 836 Major grins
    edited August 31, 2012
    onethumb wrote: »
    No, your renewal fee will go up $100 whenever your renewal comes due.

    Figured that was the case, thanks for clarifying. I'm sure you guys are going to get no shortage of feedback from this.

    I wanted to clarify, I still think Smugmug is a heck of a deal and a great service overall. I'm still recommending others to the service, though I'm advising them about my own hesitations. You guys still rock in many areas, but the value for the price paid isn't as clear cut anymore (especially after receiving the email tonight). One user commented on your blog that if business users can't suck up an additional $100 a year they might be doing something wrong. I agree to an extent, but as a business owner I need to see value in further investment no matter how big or small. Personally the unlimited storage isn't a big deal to me. I use Backblaze for online backups. Perhaps a tiered pricing structure would have made more sense for those more concerned with backups & storage.

    I'm more interested in things that help a photographer excel in today's marketplace. Dynamic portfolio options, front end tweaks, integrated blogs, better social media integration, etc. These aren't trends that will go away, these are reality.

    There is still a chance I'll be in this for the long haul with ya'll, but I need some good news from you guys. I know you have it in you, don't let us down!
  • RobertkRobertk Registered Users Posts: 165 Major grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    :-). I'm liking my Zenfolio trial right now!
  • David EvertsenDavid Evertsen Registered Users Posts: 524 Major grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    onethumb wrote: »
    I'm sorry you feel that way. Let me see if I can give you a little insight. I apologize in advance that I can't reveal everything - I *really* wish I could, but what we're working on is so huge, and such a moving target, I really can't make any promises just yet.

    What I will say is that we've built our business over nearly 10 years by listening, very closely, to our customers. To you. We ignore our "competitors", many of which have come and gone over the last decade, in favor of doing what's right for you. We ignore "hot" industry trends on a regular basis because our customers aren't telling us they want them. You are our compass.

    We released a preview many months ago of a new gallery style that we were very excited about, and then carefully listened to your feedback.

    We heard it loud and clear. Some of it was painful, but we listened very closely. You loved it, but wanted more. Especially when it came to customization, you wanted *a lot* more.

    The entire company galvanized around that feedback and we went back to the drawing board. We've now built something truly groundbreaking the likes of which the world has never seen before. Photo sharing will evolve. And it's all thanks to you and your feedback.

    But this sort of huge engineering project takes an awful lot of time & energy to get right. We're rebuilding many of SmugMug's systems from the ground up. We're still many months away from being done. Tiny little bits and pieces have been leaking out around the edges - the gallery preview, the new search interface, Pricelists, and the new Account Settings. They're all tiny little echoes of a much bigger product shift.

    Every single engineer & designer at SmugMug is furiously working away to implement what you asked us to build. I ask for your patience as we build, perfect, and polish it. It will radically improve every account level, from Basic to Pro, and your ability to preserve, share & sell your priceless photos. There will be a public preview phase where we will, once again, listen very closely. I hope that comes soon, but again, we can't make any promises. Some Dgrinners have already gotten personal previews, and we've sharpened our pencils and carefully written down every word. It's already helped make the product even better.

    I think our track record of diligently serving only our customers speaks for itself, unlike any other Internet company you can think of, but I completely understand if you just can't wait. We'll miss you, and hope to earn your business again once you see what we're pouring our hearts & souls into. I'm confident you'll love it every bit as much as I do.

    Thanks for being a part of the journey, and especially, of the SmugMug family. We love you.

    Take Smart Galleries not working several years ago, had to beg and beg and beg to get them fixed, two months worth. Pass my name around ask Andy, and some other folks. It wasn't a priority to fix an advertised product. Will that now become something that will change??
  • JimKarczewskiJimKarczewski Registered Users Posts: 969 Major grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    Robertk wrote: »
    :-). I'm liking my Zenfolio trial right now!

    Yeah.. especially since they offer a self-fulfillment, something I think will happen with SmugMug.. when Hell Freezes over. And with the $250 package, it's 0% for self-fulfillment.
  • RobertkRobertk Registered Users Posts: 165 Major grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    Yeah.. especially since they offer a self-fulfillment, something I think will happen with SmugMug.. when Hell Freezes over. And with the $250 package, it's 0% for self-fulfillment.

    Lower commission too on either package! Lower still for digital downloads. No stupid .49 fee either.

    They are working on more customization and for some reason I believe them (Zenfolio that is).
  • bpaulettebpaulette Registered Users Posts: 2 Beginner grinner
    edited September 1, 2012
    Wow guys... an extra $100/yr? Really? Was already on the fence on whether it would be worth it to renew, but ultimately I know myself and would have out of laziness if nothing else. $100 is a big enough jump to overrule laziness. The argument that if you're working enough professionally, you should be able to absorb a measley $100... that could work if you had zero competition. But look around - Smugmug isn't the only game in town, and functionally speaking, I'm not seeing any huge reasons to stick around and swallow such a huge price jump.
  • JimKarczewskiJimKarczewski Registered Users Posts: 969 Major grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    Robertk wrote: »
    :-). I'm liking my Zenfolio trial right now!
    bpaulette wrote: »
    Wow guys... an extra $100/yr? Really? Was already on the fence on whether it would be worth it to renew, but ultimately I know myself and would have out of laziness if nothing else. $100 is a big enough jump to overrule laziness. The argument that if you're working enough professionally, you should be able to absorb a measley $100... that could work if you had zero competition. But look around - Smugmug isn't the only game in town, and functionally speaking, I'm not seeing any huge reasons to stick around and swallow such a huge price jump.

    It's not the $100. It's the fact that I can get Self-fulfillment. Something that's been on "the list" forever but never implemented. Not only that, but those stupid price lists so they could make it easier to integrate with euro customers really annoyed the hell out of me. It's several things. The $100 just makes it that much easier to move to ZenFolio because it's the same price now and offers more features I want. Do I care about being able to customize every single little thing on my site, nope. SO that pretty much puts the nail in the coffin right there.
  • Light_prodLight_prod Registered Users Posts: 127 Major grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    Yeah.. especially since they offer a self-fulfillment, something I think will happen with SmugMug.. when Hell Freezes over. And with the $250 package, it's 0% for self-fulfillment.

    Give me self fulfilment & an Aussie lab and I'll stick around. I'm happy to pay for that. I've only stuck around for as long as I have based on the promise that these were on there way.

    What a joke.

    Looks like I'll be using something else for my client galleries and perhaps wordpress for my folio site, that way at least I'll be able to keep the design.

    :jose
  • GlenKGlenK Registered Users Posts: 14 Big grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    I'm new but will not stay with SM for another $100. To many options out there!!
  • TalkieTTalkieT Registered Users Posts: 491 Major grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    onethumb wrote: »
    We've completed *421* feature requests on UserVoice, including many that would easily have been on the current Top 10 list you cite, and are hard at work on dozens more. I'm extremely proud of our track record on listening to our customers and solving their problems - and the UserVoice data you're looking at supports that. Just this year we've shipped some of our biggest and most-requested features. More are on their way, including many on that Top 10 list.

    I'm truly sorry to have to say this, but I don't believe you.

    I believe you WANT to deliver what your customers want, but in the 7 years I've been a member the pace of feature rollouts could best be described as glacial - and the big features have ALL felt half-baked.

    Your customisation options are awesome - the best around, but that's all that's keeping me here. The infrastructure and underlying design are creaking. You have had more downtime in the last year than I can remember from any previous years.

    I want to believe Smugmug is about to launch a killer new version, but I just don't believe, based on 7 years of evidence, that you have the capability to execute.

    And this REALLY makes me sad because I have spent many hundreds (no exaggeration) of hours customising my site here and I know no other site offers anything like the same capability.

    The 100% price rise just announced really scares me. You MUST have known in advance how badly that was going to go down and I see only 2 logical reasons for it.

    - You're in deep deep trouble with the business model and need to focus on a MUCH greater ARPU - and know that doubling the price will get rid of a lot of low value users.
    - You simply want to get a higher ARPU, and have decided that the bad press is worth it to concentrate the userbase to a more professional group.

    In either case, you're taking a massive goodwill hit from a lot of your users. Even those who understand it won't like it - there's NO ADDITIONAL VALUE for this doubling of the fees.

    Good luck.

    I don't expect anything but an Andy-style answer ("Thanks for your opinion, I wish I had a better answer for you, I really do") but if you want us to swallow such a huge price increase, you need to tell us what you're building.

    Cheers - Neil Gardner
    --
    http://www.nzsnaps.com (talkiet.smugmug.com)
  • AlexWildAlexWild Registered Users Posts: 45 Big grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    I'm with Neil Gardner on this one.

    The correct order to roll these things out would have been:

    1. New release with killer features.
    2. Increase price, with explanation of how 1) leads to 2).

    Increasing the price with vague promises of future improvement suggests bad things are going on behind the scenes. I can afford an extra $100/year, but I can't afford to host at a company I don't trust.

    http://www.alexanderwild.com
  • RhuarcRhuarc Registered Users Posts: 1,464 Major grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    TalkieT wrote: »
    I'm truly sorry to have to say this, but I don't believe you.

    Cheers - Neil Gardner

    Agreed...

    I believe that you forgot about a large portion of your user base, the amateurs that like to pretend to be pro. People like me who enjoy this as a hobby, and love to have fun with our site and customize it and maybe make a buck or two here or there off of our pictures. I was willing to drop $150 a year on my hobby to do this. I am not willing to drop $300 a year.

    Either you forgot about us...or you just don't care. Either way, no apology fixes it. There were so many ways you could have done this. Why not say if you make less than $500 a year it is $150, after that amount it goes to $300? I may make $20 or $30 a year, someday I was hoping to make enough each year to pay for my smugmug account. I want to be able to keep making that, but there is no way I will hit the $300 range. And if I stay at the $150 level I am paying the same without any chance to make a few bucks to offset the cost.

    So you can see how you are actually driving me to downgrade my account instead of pay more.

    I truly am sad that I can't say more or do something to help. I *really* am....I wish that I could!! Oh wait...I could, I am choosing not to...big difference!! Remember that!!

    Rhuarc
  • DemianDemian Registered Users Posts: 211 Major grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    I'm gonna take a stab at this:

    Usually when a major executive leaves to "pursue other opportunities" and the company simultaneously does a major price hike... they're in pretty hot water. I don't think Smugmug would do such a drastic price change unless they needed the money right now. Unfortunately, the utter lack of transparency makes it look like a money-grubbing scheme, and the lost customers (pros migrating to zen and hobbyists downgrading) are going to be a bigger revenue bust than predicted. Oh Chris, have we learned nothing from Netflix?


    Soooo SmugMug, my advice would be to come up with a more detailed explanation than vague accusations of storage costs and let these people know their photos are gonna be safe. You're lucky to have such a loyal and satisfied customer base.... I wouldn't test them.
  • Matthew SavilleMatthew Saville Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 3,352 Major grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    I'm gonna laugh when Zenfolio's business model matures and they realize they need to crank up their prices in order to survive. (I'm not sure how many years younger ZF is as a whole, but I know their pro business endeavors are like HALF the age of SM's...)

    BTW, what was the price of gas in 2005?



    Okay but seriously folks. To Chris & Don....permission to speak freely?

    Social media is the next big bubble, in my opinion. Just like the dot com bust, and any other rise and fall of an economic sector, I think you guys need to be careful how you proceed with whatever it is you're trying to cook up...

    For example I don't claim to know for sure what is bringing Pictage down, but I think their investment in "PUGs" has probably not been as lucrative as they had hoped. Can you guys honestly say that your investment in SMUGs has paid off? I dunno, maybe the expense is minuscule and you're actually getting tons of ROI. But you know what my gut is telling me? Cut the "local community" crap before it dries out, and just offer the best damn online service for the best damn price. Even customer service is a little overrated. These days, people "just google it" or ask their techie friend to help them. Just give people tons of options / control, with minimal downtime / bugs, and live off a modest per-GB or per-sale fee. Either way my point is that in the long run, I believe that many social media related endeavors are going to run dry; bubbles will pop.

    I know this sounds like it's WAY out of left field, but I say all this because I'm betting that this "moving target" you're trying to hit involves some crazy new concept in online photo sharing that surpasses our wildest dreams. Many kudos to you. As you know I've been a happy SmugMug user since 2004, and I know that when you say you're trying to accomplish something truly great, it is going to be awesome.

    But my fear is that you turn out to be the Myspace of the photo hosting world, NOT the Facebook. The one thing that I've always loved about SmugMug is that you seem to be near the cutting edge of web design and feature offerings, albeit minus a few stubborn points that have either proven too costly to develop, or Apple-esque outright refusals.

    Yes, I've been watching the recent offerings from Zenfolio and other online hosts, and it seems as if you guys think you are the Apple product of the photo hosting world. This is not going to work. The alternatives are getting too good. (This Mac lover hasn't been able to afford an Apple product since 2008!)

    So yeah, I'll stick around. I can only imagine what is coming. I see the Android-based cameras. I see T-Mobile will soon offer truly unlimited 4G internet. iPads and FIOS and 36MP DSLR's, ...oh my! I bet that in 2-4 years, we'll all have 10-20 megapixel phone-cameras, 40+ megapixel pro cameras, and 50/10 megabit internet anywhere we go. I plan on retiring to a cabin in the woods and just shooting stock / commercial jobs, hopefully by the time I'm 50. But who knows what the digital world will be like then!

    Eternally optimistic,
    =Matt=
    My first thought is always of light.” – Galen Rowell
    My SmugMug PortfolioMy Astro-Landscape Photo BlogDgrin Weddings Forum
  • JovesJoves Registered Users Posts: 200 Major grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    onethumb wrote: »
    I'm sorry you feel that way. Let me see if I can give you a little insight. I apologize in advance that I can't reveal everything - I *really* wish I could, but what we're working on is so huge, and such a moving target, I really can't make any promises just yet.

    What I will say is that we've built our business over nearly 10 years by listening, very closely, to our customers. To you. We ignore our "competitors", many of which have come and gone over the last decade, in favor of doing what's right for you. We ignore "hot" industry trends on a regular basis because our customers aren't telling us they want them. You are our compass.

    We released a preview many months ago of a new gallery style that we were very excited about, and then carefully listened to your feedback.

    We heard it loud and clear. Some of it was painful, but we listened very closely. You loved it, but wanted more. Especially when it came to customization, you wanted *a lot* more.

    The entire company galvanized around that feedback and we went back to the drawing board. We've now built something truly groundbreaking the likes of which the world has never seen before. Photo sharing will evolve. And it's all thanks to you and your feedback.

    But this sort of huge engineering project takes an awful lot of time & energy to get right. We're rebuilding many of SmugMug's systems from the ground up. We're still many months away from being done. Tiny little bits and pieces have been leaking out around the edges - the gallery preview, the new search interface, Pricelists, and the new Account Settings. They're all tiny little echoes of a much bigger product shift.

    Every single engineer & designer at SmugMug is furiously working away to implement what you asked us to build. I ask for your patience as we build, perfect, and polish it. It will radically improve every account level, from Basic to Pro, and your ability to preserve, share & sell your priceless photos. There will be a public preview phase where we will, once again, listen very closely. I hope that comes soon, but again, we can't make any promises. Some Dgrinners have already gotten personal previews, and we've sharpened our pencils and carefully written down every word. It's already helped make the product even better.

    I think our track record of diligently serving only our customers speaks for itself, unlike any other Internet company you can think of, but I completely understand if you just can't wait. We'll miss you, and hope to earn your business again once you see what we're pouring our hearts & souls into. I'm confident you'll love it every bit as much as I do.

    Thanks for being a part of the journey, and especially, of the SmugMug family. We love you.

    Well I have been with you for about 10 years now this being my 9th. I read this thread earlier, and then went to the Pro section to see how this are going with the new gouge, and that is what it is. I was going to go Pro later this year, but see no reason to as this will most likely be my last year with you. Now I will address some of your reply comments.

    1) You cannot reveal anything because all it would be is another set of empty promises. Some of what you called new features angered me to no end. Like Pic Collecting, and allowing people to get prints of my photos without me knowing it. I purposely set my security high for a reason, but those two features pretty much circumvented that, because I had to opt out to restore my site as it was. The second you say you make nothing form allowing friends and family to print my photos, the problem is anyone can do that, and why is it SM thinks they should be able to print my photos with out my permission. These two features should have clearly been Opt In, not Opt Out. I do not come to my site everyday, and sometimes not even every week, so why should i have to worry that you are going around my settings?
    2)You may listen to your customers but listening does not mean keeping them happy. From the two features I complained about when they rolled out, I got the facetious answer that I could Opt Out, and when I pointed out that it should have been Opt In, they pretty much dismissed me as an idiot and that you were correct.
    Dont watch your competitors! Are you fricking kidding me! If ever a more stupid statement was ever made. If you are not watching your competitors then I am glad that I do not have money invested in this company. A business who believes they are so above their competitors that they do not watch them is doomed to go out of business, this is a fact. It smacks of arrogance, so perhaps it is time to leave since I will only be considered a whining customer that does not appreciate the great things you do.
    3) The only galvanization I have seen in the past two years is when customers complain about things is to circle the wagons, and give generic answers. This is especially true when this site has been down, which I might add has been more frequent than in the past.
    4) For almost a year we have been hearing the our engineers are working furiously to address problem and improving the site. And for about a year that is all we hear. Talk or in this case, type is cheap, especially true when you dump a major price increase on a segment of your customers that you make a good deal of money from. Here is a hint. First you do what you promise in improvements, and fixes, then you increase the price.
    5) While yes your track record was good in the past, this has not been the case in the past oh year or two. Down times more frequent is one major one. Circumventing customers security settings, and blaming the customer because they did not use the opt out features. Also the Control Panel getting to them was not as simple, was that by stupidity or design. Anything for site Security should be in Settings, Only the Pic Collecting was if I remember right, the Allow Printing should have been as well. Instead you make us go to galleries to set up security, stupid.
    I do not know what has happened to this site in the past couple of years, whether it is change of hands or what, but you people are pissing off your base. I have not had reason to complain till just the past couple, and I do not have that many on your board here, but those I do have were pretty much ignored or dismissed. But I guess that being a 9 year customer is nothing to you as I can easily be replaced, and reading the responses from Admins makes me think that is how you people look at it. So this most likely will be my last year. Unless of course there are some major changes.

    You really want to know how to make more money from this site without having to increase your rates let me know. Because in my opinion you are clueless or too short sighted to see any way but yours, and that is what eventually destroys a great business.
    I shoot therefore Iam.
    http://joves.smugmug.com/
  • onethumbonethumb Administrators Posts: 1,269 Major grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    Demian wrote: »
    I'm gonna take a stab at this:

    Usually when a major executive leaves to "pursue other opportunities" and the company simultaneously does a major price hike... they're in pretty hot water. I don't think Smugmug would do such a drastic price change unless they needed the money right now. Unfortunately, the utter lack of transparency makes it look like a money-grubbing scheme, and the lost customers (pros migrating to zen and hobbyists downgrading) are going to be a bigger revenue bust than predicted. Oh Chris, have we learned nothing from Netflix?


    Soooo SmugMug, my advice would be to come up with a more detailed explanation than vague accusations of storage costs and let these people know their photos are gonna be safe. You're lucky to have such a loyal and satisfied customer base.... I wouldn't test them.

    Good guess, but luckily for you and the rest of us, off base. We're not in hot water, we just blew it by not raising prices periodically over the last 7 years, and needed to get our prices back in line with the rest of the industry. Being a company with strong growth, thinning margins, and more expensive competitors isn't easy.

    Your photos are still safe. The company is doing well, and with the upcoming price increase, we will be able to provide even better service to our customers.
  • TalkieTTalkieT Registered Users Posts: 491 Major grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    onethumb wrote: »
    Good guess, but luckily for you and the rest of us, off base. We're not in hot water, we just blew it by not raising prices periodically over the last 7 years, and needed to get our prices back in line with the rest of the industry. Being a company with strong growth, thinning margins, and more expensive competitors isn't easy.

    Your photos are still safe. The company is doing well, and with the upcoming price increase, we will be able to provide even better service to our customers.

    I so want to believe you... I really do. Can you please answer this one question?

    Why is the rationale given for the price increase so obviously bogus? Sure, I buy that people are storing more now, but you aren't directly addressing that issue. You are charging people that sell a HUGE AMOUNT MORE, and still letting lower tier users store as much as they want.

    Personally, I am looking at dropping a tier or two down at renewal. It won't change the storage requirements but it will decrease your revenue from me.

    So what's the real reason? You've already burnt so much goodwill here you might as well take the chance to be really frank about it.

    If you want to purge hobbyist high maintenance users from your pro level and re-price that level based on a new, working professional only target market, then just say so.

    I'd have a lot more respect for you.

    Cheers - Neil G
    --
    http://www.nzsnaps.com (talkiet.smugmug.com)
  • JovesJoves Registered Users Posts: 200 Major grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    What no response to me Mr onethumb? Or is it that longtime customers mean zilch to you people?
    I shoot therefore Iam.
    http://joves.smugmug.com/
  • bandgeekndbbandgeekndb Registered Users Posts: 284 Major grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    TalkieT wrote: »
    I so want to believe you... I really do. Can you please answer this one question?

    Why is the rationale given for the price increase so obviously bogus? You are charging people that sell a HUGE AMOUNT MORE, and still letting lower tier users store as much as they want.

    So what's the real reason? You've already burnt so much goodwill here you might as well take the chance to be really frank about it.

    Cheers - Neil G

    Amen!!! I just stopped paying for Pro this year, so this won't affect me unless I decide to upgrade in the future.

    I completely agree that you can't blame "storage costs" and not bump prices across the board. Granted, I bet most Pros store more than Power or Basic users, but I bet a good number of Power users eat up a lot of disk space! And even more so now, as many like me decide Pro, or even Portfolio isn't worth the price and downgrade to something like Power!

    I also agree with others that it would be far better to roll out some or all of these new features that you're touting before the big price increase.

    When I tell people about Smugmug, I rave about your customer service and unlimited uploads. I can't rave about features that take forever to appear, or don't appear at all, and now price increases with only a somewhat shallow promise without a lot of evidence.

    I've always been taught that you have to earn trust, not demand it. Right now, I feel you've earned my trust with customer service. You're demanding my trust about features by making us commit to a huge price increase without any new features to allay our fears.

    I hope Baldy has the time to give us an answer, but I know he's probably just a bit busy right now. I just hope Smugmug as a whole rethinks this price increase and finds a better way to make us happy with the increase.

    Thanks!
    Nikon D7000, D90

    Sigma 18-50 f/2.8, 70-200 f/2.8
    Nikkor 55-200mm f/4-5.6, 50mm f/1.8
  • jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    TalkieT wrote: »
    You are charging people that sell a HUGE AMOUNT MORE, and still letting lower tier users store as much as they want.

    Personally, I am looking at dropping a tier or two down at renewal. It won't change the storage requirements but it will decrease your revenue from me.

    This one totally baffles me too. I'm actually one of the large storage users and I'm probably going to downgrade from pro to power because of the price increase. If storage is really the issue, then why not solve the real problem? Why allow power users to store whatever they want and only pay $60/yr? What about all the power or standard users backing up all their photos on Smugmug in unlisted galleries? Rather than fix the real problem, they've just forced a lot of folks who were willing to pay for a pro account, but don't sell a lot to downgrade (that's me). This seems to go against the typical business strategy of maximize what you can get each user to pay.

    It seems that it would have made more sense to:
    • Add features that the serious pros want and entice them to an upgrade to the higher priced pro account. This is the carrot model rather than the current stick model. I'm completely baffled why you raised prices before introducing new features. If you're really doing all this great stuff for pros, it would have made sense to make the price increase part of the new offering.
    • Don't drop features from the existing pro price point (so you don't get people downgrading). If you feel a modest price increase is needed, you could do that, but it's probably not needed if you also manage storage as below.
    • Implement some bounds/fees on storage for the lesser account levels. This aligns your costs directly with your revenue and gives folks who want to pay less a means to have access to the features they want at the price they're willing to pay by just managing their storage use (and consequently your costs).

    As it is now, you're trying to get your most profitable customers to subsidize your highest disk users that aren't paying for the highest level of service. This seems like a dumb idea. If the high storage users are causing problems, then you should address that directly with a scheme that directly connects usage with revenue rather than the indirect way you have it now. I think you'll be surprised how many pro accounts that use a lot of storage downgrade to power users and make your problem even worse in your new pricing scheme. It looks like both of my pro accounts may become power accounts.
    --John
    HomepagePopular
    JFriend's javascript customizationsSecrets for getting fast answers on Dgrin
    Always include a link to your site when posting a question
  • DemianDemian Registered Users Posts: 211 Major grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    Actually, I believe him. I was looking into storage costs.... bear with me.

    Smug uses Amazon S3, and I'm guessing they pay around $0.10 per GB per month. Some professional photographers are INCREDIBLY prolific; Let's say a full time photographer uploads 500 images a week (Easily possible if you're shooting two weddings a week during the season and doing other event work in your off time). If those images average 2 MB (about what I get with my 5D2) then they're uploading 1 GB a week. So their monthly cost goes up $0.10 every week.

    If they do this for four years straight, they've uploaded a total of 208 GB and their monthly cost is now $20.80/mo in storage fees... or $250 a year. That's the entire price of the new pro membership. And you need to remember that Smugmug has many costs above and beyond storage fees (Bandwidth, labor, legal, etc). So if I'm right, that leads me to two conclusions:

    1. The current system is one where the less prolific uploaders are needed to subsidize the more prolific ones.

    2. Unless storage costs drop at a more rapid pace, this system is ultimately unsustainable; The photographers with the most photos will continue to upload, and camera megapixel counts will continue to increase. This will lead to higher and higher prices until the lighter users (who are subsidizing the system) drop out, leaving only the high-cost professional photographers.



    Is that right? If I was Smugmug, I would drop the unlimited hosting and offer pay as you go hosting. Giving for free what costs you something is always a risky proposition... People will use it recklessly. If you provided a sizeable (but limited) storage space and charged beyond that, what would happen? The most costly pros would go to Zenfolio (reducing the drain on the system) and the rest would store their 4 year old wedding galleries to save money. Higher margins, and a more satisfied customer base, no?

    Then again, this is only conjecture. It's hard to say what kind of financial position you're in without looking at the fun stuff :(

    EDIT:

    I know it's a scary prospect to turn your back on what is essentially an industry standard, but nobody ever became a leader by following their competitors. Or ya know, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.
  • jfriendjfriend Registered Users Posts: 8,097 Major grins
    edited September 1, 2012
    Demian wrote: »
    Actually, I believe him. I was looking into storage costs.... bear with me.

    Smug uses Amazon S3, and I'm guessing they pay around $0.10 per GB per month. Some professional photographers are INCREDIBLY prolific; Let's say a full time photographer uploads 500 images a week (Easily possible if you're shooting two weddings a week during the season and doing other event work in your off time). If those images average 2 MB (about what I get with my 5D2) then they're uploading 1 GB a week. So their monthly cost goes up $0.10 every week.

    If they do this for four years straight, they've uploaded a total of 208 GB and their monthly cost is now $20.80/mo in storage fees... or $250 a year. That's the entire price of the new pro membership. And you need to remember that Smugmug has many costs above and beyond storage fees (Bandwidth, labor, legal, etc). So if I'm right, that leads me to two conclusions:

    1. The current system is one where the less prolific uploaders are needed to subsidize the more prolific ones.

    2. Unless storage costs drop at a more rapid pace, this system is ultimately unsustainable; The photographers with the most photos will continue to upload, and camera megapixel counts will continue to increase. This will lead to higher and higher prices until the lighter users (who are subsidizing the system) drop out, leaving only the high-cost professional photographers.



    Is that right? If I was Smugmug, I would drop the unlimited hosting and offer pay as you go hosting. Giving for free what costs you something is always a risky proposition... People will use it recklessly. If you provided a sizeable (but limited) storage space and charged beyond that, what would happen? The most costly pros would go to Zenfolio (reducing the drain on the system) and the rest would store their 4 year old wedding galleries to save money. Higher margins, and a more satisfied customer base, no?

    Then again, this is only conjecture. It's hard to say what kind of financial position you're in without looking at the fun stuff :(

    EDIT:

    I know it's a scary prospect to turn your back on what is essentially an industry standard, but nobody ever became a leader by following their competitors. Or ya know, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.
    Your logic makes sense to me. Cameras are only going to continue to increase in resolution and a higher percentage of dSLRs will be high res over time. And, with unlimited storage, existing customers will just continue to accumulate more and more storage over time. This cycle never ends. If storage costs don't decrease faster than customers increasing use, this model just continues to break. The only way to break the cycle is to find a way to keep customer's storage use from going up faster than costs. Since customers likely don't want to continue to pay more and more each year, you have to find a way to get customers to manage their own storage use. That means some sort of cost per GB above some threshold.
    --John
    HomepagePopular
    JFriend's javascript customizationsSecrets for getting fast answers on Dgrin
    Always include a link to your site when posting a question
  • Matthew SavilleMatthew Saville Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 3,352 Major grins
    edited September 2, 2012
    Demian wrote: »
    Actually, I believe him. I was looking into storage costs.... bear with me.

    Smug uses Amazon S3, and I'm guessing they pay around $0.10 per GB per month. Some professional photographers are INCREDIBLY prolific; Let's say a full time photographer uploads 500 images a week (Easily possible if you're shooting two weddings a week during the season and doing other event work in your off time). If those images average 2 MB (about what I get with my 5D2) then they're uploading 1 GB a week. So their monthly cost goes up $0.10 every week.

    If they do this for four years straight, they've uploaded a total of 208 GB and their monthly cost is now $20.80/mo in storage fees... or $250 a year. That's the entire price of the new pro membership. And you need to remember that Smugmug has many costs above and beyond storage fees (Bandwidth, labor, legal, etc). So if I'm right, that leads me to two conclusions:

    1. The current system is one where the less prolific uploaders are needed to subsidize the more prolific ones.

    2. Unless storage costs drop at a more rapid pace, this system is ultimately unsustainable; The photographers with the most photos will continue to upload, and camera megapixel counts will continue to increase. This will lead to higher and higher prices until the lighter users (who are subsidizing the system) drop out, leaving only the high-cost professional photographers.



    Is that right? If I was Smugmug, I would drop the unlimited hosting and offer pay as you go hosting. Giving for free what costs you something is always a risky proposition... People will use it recklessly. If you provided a sizeable (but limited) storage space and charged beyond that, what would happen? The most costly pros would go to Zenfolio (reducing the drain on the system) and the rest would store their 4 year old wedding galleries to save money. Higher margins, and a more satisfied customer base, no?

    Then again, this is only conjecture. It's hard to say what kind of financial position you're in without looking at the fun stuff :(

    EDIT:

    I know it's a scary prospect to turn your back on what is essentially an industry standard, but nobody ever became a leader by following their competitors. Or ya know, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.
    Hah. Our studio uploads 10-20 GB per week, during peak season.

    =Matt=
    My first thought is always of light.” – Galen Rowell
    My SmugMug PortfolioMy Astro-Landscape Photo BlogDgrin Weddings Forum
  • SiriusPhotogSiriusPhotog Registered Users Posts: 42 Big grins
    edited September 2, 2012
    One word: NetFlix

    Glad I have until Feb. when my renewal comes up. If I don't see some of these spectacular updates they are talking about by mid December I know what I'll be doing over the holidays.....moving my account to Zen.
    Sorry guys ~
  • Matthew SavilleMatthew Saville Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 3,352 Major grins
    edited September 2, 2012
    Honestly, the more I think about it the more I realize SmugMug is doing exactly the right thing.

    Thinning the herd of aspiring (wannabe?) pros who think they're on the brink of hitting it bigtime, because they can start turning a profit on their photography hobby without more than a few tiny expenses here and there.

    Honestly? To me the bottom line is that if you're not profiting enough for it to be worth an extra $100 per year, then maybe you're just not profiting enough. It's that simple. Downgrade, or go somewhere else.

    If another hosting company can make a better offer and still turn a profit, then they deserve to succeed. However, which of you can TRULY say that they know all the other companies' bottom lines and profit margins, or their long-term strategy for survival? I bet that similar price increases are in everybody's pipeline.

    As I posted in my earlier post, this whole new online hosting / sharing / social media thing is brand new, and there may be a bubble or two that must pop before the long-term survivors are crowned.


    =Matt=
    My first thought is always of light.” – Galen Rowell
    My SmugMug PortfolioMy Astro-Landscape Photo BlogDgrin Weddings Forum
  • DreadnoteDreadnote Registered Users Posts: 634 Major grins
    edited September 2, 2012
    Honestly, the more I think about it the more I realize SmugMug is doing exactly the right thing.

    Thinning the herd of aspiring (wannabe?) pros who think they're on the brink of hitting it bigtime, because they can start turning a profit on their photography hobby without more than a few tiny expenses here and there.

    Honestly? To me the bottom line is that if you're not profiting enough for it to be worth an extra $100 per year, then maybe you're just not profiting enough. It's that simple. Downgrade, or go somewhere else.

    If another hosting company can make a better offer and still turn a profit, then they deserve to succeed. However, which of you can TRULY say that they know all the other companies' bottom lines and profit margins, or their long-term strategy for survival? I bet that similar price increases are in everybody's pipeline.

    As I posted in my earlier post, this whole new online hosting / sharing / social media thing is brand new, and there may be a bubble or two that must pop before the long-term survivors are crowned.


    =Matt=

    Wow! Now that doesn't sound elitist at all. It seems to me that given that the overwhelming number of smugmug users are not full time professionals, and if the given reasons for the price increase are truly related to storage costs, then it is the users like yourself that are uploading 20 GB a week that are the ones "peeing in the pool". Perhaps if mega users like yourself, who I have to imagine are a very small percentage of smugmug customers, were the ones to leave smugmug then the company would be still be profitable at their lower price levels, could still offer "unlimited" storage, and the rest of us poor slobs who don't deserve to own cameras would be fine.

    Something to think about perhaps?
    Sports, Dance, Portraits, Events... www.jasonhowardking.com
  • kenskikenski Registered Users Posts: 34 Big grins
    edited September 2, 2012
    Dreadnote wrote: »
    Wow! Now that doesn't sound elitist at all. It seems to me that given that the overwhelming number of smugmug users are not full time professionals, and if the given reasons for the price increase are truly related to storage costs, then it is the users like yourself that are uploading 20 GB a week that are the ones "peeing in the pool". Perhaps if mega users like yourself, who I have to imagine are a very small percentage of smugmug customers, were the ones to leave smugmug then the company would be still be profitable at their lower price levels, could still offer "unlimited" storage, and the rest of us poor slobs who don't deserve to own cameras would be fine.

    Something to think about perhaps?


    hahaha, What I love is this guy is actually threatened!! I can call my photography a "HOBBY" right now because I do work a full time job right now. I will be retired in 5 years at the age of 39 and will be making photography my full time gig. I currently pay insurance, pay for my website, pay for my gear. What I do not get is WHY do photographers charge SOOOO much for their fees. I get alot of hate mail from local photographers because I "STEAL" their customers. Well, I do not feel you need to charge $5000 for a wedding. Explain to me WHY you need to charge so much to shoot a wedding. I understand you need to buy your equipment, overhead, blah blah blah, If you choose only to work a certain # of days a year and depend on that for your yearly salary, tough shit... I will be glad to undercut anyone else. This is how the United States was founded, competition. So, you can call me a hobbist all you want. I will just laugh and say "THANKS".
  • DreadnoteDreadnote Registered Users Posts: 634 Major grins
    edited September 2, 2012
    kenski wrote: »
    hahaha, What I love is this guy is actually threatened!! I can call my photography a "HOBBY" right now because I do work a full time job right now. I will be retired in 5 years at the age of 39 and will be making photography my full time gig. I currently pay insurance, pay for my website, pay for my gear. What I do not get is WHY do photographers charge SOOOO much for their fees. I get alot of hate mail from local photographers because I "STEAL" their customers. Well, I do not feel you need to charge $5000 for a wedding. Explain to me WHY you need to charge so much to shoot a wedding. I understand you need to buy your equipment, overhead, blah blah blah, If you choose only to work a certain # of days a year and depend on that for your yearly salary, tough shit... I will be glad to undercut anyone else. This is how the United States was founded, competition. So, you can call me a hobbist all you want. I will just laugh and say "THANKS".

    I'm assuming that this is a response to Matt's posting as he was the one calling you a hobbyist?
    Sports, Dance, Portraits, Events... www.jasonhowardking.com
  • kenskikenski Registered Users Posts: 34 Big grins
    edited September 2, 2012
    assume correct! :)
  • Matthew SavilleMatthew Saville Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 3,352 Major grins
    edited September 2, 2012
    Dreadnote wrote: »
    ...given that the overwhelming number of smugmug users are not full time professionals,
    Certainly true, which is why I'm assuming that everyone here making a stink is in the top-most pro category. The basic account users probably don't care about all this?

    Dreadnote wrote: »
    ...and if the given reasons for the price increase are truly related to storage costs, then it is the users like yourself that are uploading 20 GB a week that are the ones "peeing in the pool". Perhaps if mega users like yourself, who I have to imagine are a very small percentage of smugmug customers, were the ones to leave smugmug then the company would be still be profitable at their lower price levels, could still offer "unlimited" storage, and the rest of us poor slobs who don't deserve to own cameras would be fine.
    Something to think about perhaps?
    You're not understanding. What I'm saying is, I'm happy to pay an extra $100 per year for my storage habits, and those who don't see value in paying $250 per year for the ability to sell prints are welcome to downgrade to a "portfolio pro" account, and wait until their business is mature enough to pay the extra price. (which unfortunately would then be $300)

    I do totally agree on one point that some people have made- To be the most fair, they should just come up with a per-GB price. That'd be fair, and it would cause everyone to think twice about uploading so many photos.

    I think this whole "cloud storage" thing is a bubble that needs to be popped, in one way or another. I'm betting that many, many businesses out there are basing their business model on the hope that storage and bandwidth will get a lot cheaper, soon. Otherwise I doubt if all of this "unlimited cloud storage backup" madness can go on much longer. (Or, that is why companies like DropBox already charge such a high rate for such a mediocre amount of cloud storage...)


    =Matt=
    My first thought is always of light.” – Galen Rowell
    My SmugMug PortfolioMy Astro-Landscape Photo BlogDgrin Weddings Forum
Sign In or Register to comment.