Chime in on this discussion/question of which lens

Chimper · March 29, 2011

I have a Canon XTi rebel - and do primarily portrait shots of dogs and shoot in natural light outdoors. The dogs don't hold still and often must be photographed in low light. I currently use a canon 70-300 mm 4-5.6 but it's too slow for low light situations. I'm considering a 70-200 mm 2.8 or a 24-70 mm 2.8. For that kinda money, I'd really appreciate some recommendations. Chimper

ziggy53 wrote: »

Let's start with the usual questions.

What sort of portraiture do you wish to do? (Explain as completely as you can regarding formal/informal/environmental, etc. and head shot/full length etc.)

What space do you have available for the portraiture?

Since you have a 50mm prime, is that focal length limiting for your style of shooting?

For my own shooting style and a wedding/reception, and considering a crop 1.6x camera body, I prefer the following lenses:

Canon EF-S 17-55mm, f2.8 IS USM
Canon EF 70-200mm, f2.8L USM (non-IS)
Canon EF 50mm, f1.4 USM
Canon EF 135mm, f2L USM
Sigma 10-20mm, ff-f5.6 EX DC (non-HSM)

The 17-55mm is a very handy standard zoom and the constant aperture of f2.8 allows use in relative low light and the IS allows freehand during the ceremony as required. It's also an excellent lens for the reception. A Tamron AF 17-50mm, f2.8 XR Di-II LD SP ZL Aspherical (IF). These lenses will also serve for group portraits through head-and-shoulders singles, although for a tight head shot I would want something longer than 50mm.

The 70-200mm is very nice for larger venues and longer distances. I don't find the lack of IS too troubling but I probably will upgrade to an IS version some day. The 200mm will work for head shots if the background cooperates and you have the room (mostly outdoors). Sigma and Tamron also make nice 70-200mm, f2.8 zooms that are suitable for this use.

The primes are for those churches where the lighting doesn't allow for an f2.8 aperture and no flash during the ceremony. The 50mm and 135mm selections allow for some diversity and a choice between contextual versus intimate images. The EF 100mm, f2 USM is an affordable alternate for the 135L. (The EF 85mm, f1.8 USM not far behind.)

The super-wide-angle 10-20mm zoom is just for establish shots (exterior and interior) and "getting ready" shots in a very small space.

If I were to recommend something for crop cameras I think that an f2.8 standard zoom of 17-50mm-ish range is the first priority for wedding photography. This is my bread-and-butter lens and probably 70-80% of my wedding images come from this type of lens.

Next is the 70-200mm, f2.8, with or without IS. I have 3 lenses of this type for all my photography and this is an important lens as well for wedding photography. I suppose that I really could do a wedding with those 2 lenses alone and not feel too limited.

ziggy53 · March 29, 2011

Rather than hijack the previous thread I created a new thread just for your question. You have different needs and will probably get different recommendations.

ziggy53 · March 30, 2011

Chimper wrote: »

I have a Canon XTi rebel - and do primarily portrait shots of dogs and shoot in natural light outdoors. The dogs don't hold still and often must be photographed in low light. I currently use a canon 70-300 mm 4-5.6 but it's too slow for low light situations. I'm considering a 70-200 mm 2.8 or a 24-70 mm 2.8. For that kinda money, I'd really appreciate some recommendations. Chimper

You're on the right track. An active dog is much like sports/action photography and you require both rapid and accurate AF acquisition in order to produce sharp images. This requires both a camera "and" lens which are capable of measuring the speed and vector of the subject as well as predicting where focus will be at the time of exposure.

A sports/action lens is a very good place to start and the Canon EF 70-200mm, f2.8L USM are very competent performers. In low light you would also benefit from a flash with AF assist light, but there is no substitute for good lighting when possible. A flash is also a very good thing outdoors to provide fill light and some catch lights in all eyes. Be sure to have the flash off the camera in order to prevent dog "redeye", which is often worse than the human problem.

If the dog is too active it can make your job almost impossible and often it's both the result of an untrained dog and untrained "owner" that are to blame. An owner that has no control over their dog can be a real problem and a pretty good solution is to have the owner go out-of-sight from the dog and you provide a dog "handler/wrangler" yourself. In this case an assistant with some dog handling experience is invaluable. Multiple dogs will compound the problem.

If the owner must be in the image remember that dogs generally have a very short attention span. It's best to place the owner first and let the dogs roam on a leash until just before the exposure. If you can get the dogs' attention with a toy or a treat then use that prop near the camera just at the time of exposure. Constant reinforcement will help the situation.

My own subject for dog images is my daughter's Jack Russel Terrier. He is extremely active and requires the best techniques as described above.

Do remember that your subject is a dog, after all, and it can be important capturing some of their natural activities (as possible):

To summarize: Yes, an EF 70-200mm, f2.8L USM is a very good tool and would make a worthy addition and should improve your keeper rate. A flash is important indoors and outdoors, but make sure to get the light off the camera. A camera with faster AF is another important component (after the lens) and several above used a Canon 1D MKII, which has splendid AF speed and accuracy. They are also getting pretty affordable nowdays.

The lens alone should improve your keeper rate (focus accuracy) by maybe 20-25 percent. Lens plus flash will yield a bit more but the images will have better "pop" as well. That lens plus flash plus a 1D series body should get you into the 75-80 percent in focus rate.

Chimper · March 30, 2011

THANK YOU for the advice Ziggy
Great advice and I thank you so much. I'm going to read and re-read it all. I'm in awe of anyone who can get such terrific pictures of a Jack Russel -- undeniably one of the most hyper breeds on the planet

What gear did YOU use to get those shots?

Given the lens - how much difference will it be in results between the IS or non-IS lens? IS is obviously much more expensive but if my results would be substantially improved, I'd want to consider waiting and saving up.

As for flash, I understand the issue. What flash would be a good recommendation for me? I currently have a Canon Speedlite 420 EX but I don't think it can be remotely triggered so I haven't used it off camera. If I scrape up the money to buy another flash, which one would you recommend? Maybe a 580EX, or a 580EX II ?

As for remote triggers -- can you recommend any less expensive than the PWs?

And finally, in what order should I buy things? From your reply, I think it's: 1) lens, 2) flash, 3) remote triggers and finally 4) camera body? Or some other order?

Again, many thanks for the advice.

divamum · March 30, 2011

420ex can absolutely be triggered off camera - I use mine as a slave flash all the time! HOWEVER... it can't be used in manual mode, therefore you're limited to the Canon/Canon-compatible devices, ie 580ex/II flash, Sigma "Super" flash series, STE2 (or the new Chinese knock-off version of it). Be aware, however, that these are infra-red comms between devices and need line-of-sight, thus can be a little temperamental outdoors sometimes (particularly in bright sunlight).

Upgrade whichever element you feel is limiting you. When I first upgraded my XT body everybody said "buy glass first" - but I felt VERY strongly that it was the camera's older/slower AF and handling which was holding me back and thus went for the new body first, and I was very glad I did. Yes, bodies come and go while glass stays, glass will absolutely improve IQ more than body (for the most part) BUT if the camera won't let you get the shot it doesn't matter how great the glass taking it is! I will say that for a fast subject like a dog, improved AF will likely make things much easier. Even if you get a faster-focusing lens, if the camera can't "keep up" it won't make much difference.

If the budget is available, you might want to consider looking for a used or refurbished 40d, 50d or 7d as well as faster glass

ziggy53 · March 30, 2011

Chimper wrote: »

... What gear did YOU use to get those shots?

...

The first image was from a Canon XT/350D using a Sigma 18-50mm, f2.8 EX DC. Probably wide open. I was just testing a DIY flash modifier concept, which I eventually abandoned. He was being "very" good at the time.

The second image I believe was using a Canon 1D MKII with a Canon EF 28-80mm, f2.8-f4L USM.

The third image was a Canon 40D using an EF-S 17-55mm, f2.8 IS USM. Probably the IS was turned off.

The fourth image was also the Canon 40D and a Canon EF 70-200mm, f4L IS USM. While this lens works fine for outdoors and in very good light, it is not so fast to focus indoors, where I normally use an EF 70-200mm, f2.8L USM (non-IS). The 70-200f4LIS-USM is my travel lens and I was out of town for those shots. The dog park was just a side trip.

I believe that all flashes in these particular images were Sigma EF 5xx DG Super flashes (I have 4 of these flashes.) I also use a Canon 580EX (ver I) and sometimes that same flash with an external high-voltage power supply.

jeffreaux2 · March 30, 2011

divamum wrote: »

If the budget is available, you might want to consider looking for a used or refurbished 40d, 50d or 7d as well as faster glass

The XTi is a fairly capable body.

In fact, I am pretty sure it shares the 40D focus system, and even the 50D isn't much of an improvement. The 7D would be a quantam leap though.....in the focusing department.

That said, all three of the cameras mentioned would be much more...responsive...in the hand.

divamum · March 30, 2011

I'll say that going from an XT to an XSi (similar guts to the 40d) was a HUGE improvement in AF - not sure if the difference will be as significant from the XTi. But, as you say, the handling is so much faster because of the thumbwheel and other layout/access differences....

7d is indeed a huge step up from all of the above. It's hardly a "requirement", but if you have the $ and are interested in something with noticeably faster and more accurate AF, you won't be disappointed by it

Chimper · April 20, 2014

Flash off the camera?
Hello Ziggy - With reference to your suggestion of getting the flash off the camera, does that mean using a camera bracket? Or some other device? Since dog agility photos are often taken hand-held, how should I deal with the additional lighting problem?

I've gotten a Canon 5D and a 70-200 2.8 IS lens so my rig is quite improved from previously but do understand the need for additional light (which I have not improved yet over my 420 speedlite. Suggestions would be appreciated!

ziggy53 wrote: »

You're on the right track. An active dog is much like sports/action photography and you require both rapid and accurate AF acquisition in order to produce sharp images. This requires both a camera "and" lens which are capable of measuring the speed and vector of the subject as well as predicting where focus will be at the time of exposure.

A sports/action lens is a very good place to start and the Canon EF 70-200mm, f2.8L USM are very competent performers. In low light you would also benefit from a flash with AF assist light, but there is no substitute for good lighting when possible. A flash is also a very good thing outdoors to provide fill light and some catch lights in all eyes. Be sure to have the flash off the camera in order to prevent dog "redeye", which is often worse than the human problem.

If the dog is too active it can make your job almost impossible and often it's both the result of an untrained dog and untrained "owner" that are to blame. An owner that has no control over their dog can be a real problem and a pretty good solution is to have the owner go out-of-sight from the dog and you provide a dog "handler/wrangler" yourself. In this case an assistant with some dog handling experience is invaluable. Multiple dogs will compound the problem.

If the owner must be in the image remember that dogs generally have a very short attention span. It's best to place the owner first and let the dogs roam on a leash until just before the exposure. If you can get the dogs' attention with a toy or a treat then use that prop near the camera just at the time of exposure. Constant reinforcement will help the situation.

My own subject for dog images is my daughter's Jack Russel Terrier. He is extremely active and requires the best techniques as described above.

Do remember that your subject is a dog, after all, and it can be important capturing some of their natural activities (as possible):

To summarize: Yes, an EF 70-200mm, f2.8L USM is a very good tool and would make a worthy addition and should improve your keeper rate. A flash is important indoors and outdoors, but make sure to get the light off the camera. A camera with faster AF is another important component (after the lens) and several above used a Canon 1D MKII, which has splendid AF speed and accuracy. They are also getting pretty affordable nowdays.

The lens alone should improve your keeper rate (focus accuracy) by maybe 20-25 percent. Lens plus flash will yield a bit more but the images will have better "pop" as well. That lens plus flash plus a 1D series body should get you into the 75-80 percent in focus rate.

ziggy53 · April 20, 2014

Chimper wrote: »

Hello Ziggy - With reference to your suggestion of getting the flash off the camera, does that mean using a camera bracket? Or some other device? Since dog agility photos are often taken hand-held, how should I deal with the additional lighting problem?

I've gotten a Canon 5D and a 70-200 2.8 IS lens so my rig is quite improved from previously but do understand the need for additional light (which I have not improved yet over my 420 speedlite. Suggestions would be appreciated!

I use a couple of different flash brackets when I need the extra loft. Often I just use a "scoop" type flash modifier, which gives pretty good lift to the flash output, without needing to use a bracket.

Here is a link to a DIY scoop modifier that I use a lot:

http://www.fototime.com/inv/908195739C4C0D3

Matthew Saville · April 28, 2014

Honestly in daylight with a crop sensor camera? You will not find a better puppy-action lens than the Sigma 50-150 2.8, as far as bang for buck is concerned. It's so light and small it feels like you're cheating compared to the likes of the 70-200 2.8's, and yet it's super sharp and built rock solid. I still love mine, and still use it! The old, original version of the 50-150, without OS.

=Matt=

NikonsandVstroms · April 28, 2014

Matthew Saville wrote: »

Honestly in daylight with a crop sensor camera? You will not find a better puppy-action lens than the Sigma 50-150 2.8, as far as bang for buck is concerned. It's so light and small it feels like you're cheating compared to the likes of the 70-200 2.8's, and yet it's super sharp and built rock solid. I still love mine, and still use it! The old, original version of the 50-150, without OS.

=Matt=

+1, it does pretty well in low light as well.

Chime in on this discussion/question of which lens

Comments