I'm speechless when it comes to this kind of stupidity on the part of a photographer

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  • GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited June 12, 2012
    WillCAD wrote: »

    QUESTION FOR DGRINERS: Anyone know of a good online tutorial for couples who need help choosing a photographer? Something that *Mrs. Koval can include in her story?

    Dunno about an online tutorial but how about using some good old fashioned common sense?

    Wedding pics don't mean much to some people, they have them because it's the done thing. Others appreciate they are the preservation of all else on the day.

    Seriously, do brides these days when they are looking through their 6ft high stack of bridal magazines from 3 years back not see several " How to choose a photographer" article?
    Are they not exposed to enough shooters work and price lists to be able to tell the difference for themselves? Do they go into a dress shop and buy the cheapest dress that fits or do they try on a heap of them and ask a million questions?

    Sorry, but I'm afraid I have little sympathy for people that hire idiots with a camera and then bleat about the results or lack there of. If wedding Photography was so important, why don't they put the same effort into finding a good shooter as they do bleating about them afterwards?
    The real and only reason they get stuck with clowns with a camera is because they don't put in their due diligence in time and effort.

    Like I say, they make sure they put in overtime to picking the dress... and the flowers and probably the colour of the napkins at the reception which no one except them ever notices.
    If they don't have the good sense to put the effort into choosing a reputable shooter, are you really going to be able to educate them if they haven't educated themselves??

    As far as budget goes, I don't buy that much either. There are good decent shooters that cater to budget weddings.
    The best wedding sale I ever did was over 15 yrs ago now. I found out AFTER the wedding that the couple had cut back wherever possible so they had as much money left over to buy as much photography as possible.

    The album was about 3 times my average and the album company made a special cover that was extra re-enforced. it was the biggest they had ever done at that time as well.

    I don't know about in the states or Canada but every 2nd bigger wedding studio here has their own " Tutorial" on how to choose a photographer as does every wedding mag run a " Feature" at least once a year. There are 6 wedding mags here all quartley so that means there is a how to choose a shooter article all the time. There are also how to pick a florist, a cake decorator, suit hire, cars etc...

    I thing if B&G's don't see the articles or can't work out for themselves who the less trustworthy shooters are, then it's a mistake they will have to make and learn from themselves.
  • Art ScottArt Scott Registered Users Posts: 8,959 Major grins
    edited June 12, 2012
    sphynge wrote: »
    [snip]Your photographer has admitted to losing the photos. A year later, the hard drives and memory cards have probably be re-written over multiple times, which makes it near impossible think the photos are recoverable. Recovery can easily be thousands of dollars, IF/WHEN it's possible.[snip].

    Excellent memory card recovery software usually runs under $50 and that will allow you to recover any and all images of any and all formats on all cards, or you can choose the types and such...a lot of free ware only recovers the thumbs ....but it has been mentioned on here that some of us have recovered cards that have been filled and formatted several times over the course of a year or more and recovered the images that were first taken on the card.....it s not an impossible feet, but if this person is really un reputable they can just say they lost the cards when it comes down to it....that is why I still say have an attorney write the photog a letter asking for the cards or hard drive...yes hdd recover can run into the thousands of dollars easily ...
    "Genuine Fractals was, is and will always be the best solution for enlarging digital photos." ....Vincent Versace ... ... COPYRIGHT YOUR WORK ONLINE ... ... My Website

  • WillCADWillCAD Registered Users Posts: 722 Major grins
    edited June 13, 2012
    Glort wrote: »
    ...Sorry, but I'm afraid I have little sympathy for people that hire idiots with a camera and then bleat about the results or lack there of. If wedding Photography was so important, why don't they put the same effort into finding a good shooter as they do bleating about them afterwards?
    The real and only reason they get stuck with clowns with a camera is because they don't put in their due diligence in time and effort...

    My amount of sympathy varies according to the situation.

    If you interviewed a dozen photographers and looked at all of their portfolios, and chose one whose work looked good, whose interview style meshed with yours, and whose price was right - and that photographer then lost all of your pics, how were you to know they were an idiot in photographer's clothing?

    How are you supposed to know what kind of data security and digital workflow a photographer uses? Sure, you could ask - but how would you know to ask?!Do all of those articles in bridal magazines tell you to ask about what kind of backup devices the photographer uses, and how long they keep the original files, and how much backup equipment they carry during a shoot in case of failures, etc.? To be honest, I've never read one of those bridal magazines, so I don't know. If they all recommend such questions as part of the interview process, then it seems logical that a bride who's read the magazines should ask the questions.

    But even if the bride asks the questions, how do they know what's the right answer if they're not a technophile? Just because a photographer throws a lot of technical mubo-jumbo at a bride doesn't mean she's necessarily going to understand it enough to reasonably judge whether the photographer is a cautious, seasoned pro, or Uncle Bob who has a P&S as a backup cam and a couple of 1gb SD cards as backup storage. Oh, and Uncle Bob has one o' them there portable UBS hard drive thingies to backup his files, too, so the picies must be all safe and snug, right?

    So I try not to pass judgement too harshly till I know the background.

    OP said of her fauxtographer, "At the time, she appeared very "professional."" My guess is that, given the young ages of the couple, they simply didn't have enough real-world experience to accurately judge what "professional" actually entails, and were suckered in by an Uncle Bob with good interview skills.
    What I said when I saw the Grand Canyon for the first time: "The wide ain't wide enough and the zoom don't zoom enough!"
  • jheftijhefti Registered Users Posts: 734 Major grins
    edited June 13, 2012
    WillCAD wrote: »
    "At the time, she appeared very "professional.""[/I] My guess is that, given the young ages of the couple, they simply didn't have enough real-world experience to accurately judge what "professional" actually entails, and were suckered in by an Uncle Bob with good interview skills.

    I think most people don't have the background to evaluate a photographer. Sure, you can look at a collection of their best shots, but you don't know how many bad shots they had to take to get those few good one. How many people in the throes of preparing for a wedding would think (or even know) to ask how the photos are backed up. (Are you running RAID 5, RAID 10?, dual writes?) Even references can be misleading--most of us can find a group of people who will say nice things about us.

    In my work I hire people all the time, and I have gotten pretty good at separating the best from the rest. But I still get it wrong from time to time (and I have investigative agencies and head hunters working with me). I'll just express my condolences to this young couple, and leave it at that.

    But I will relate a horror story that happened to me on a recent sports shoot, where my laptop died with a few thousand photos trapped on it. When I started downloading to an external HD, it ended up dying as well. (I was beginning to take it personally!) So with ~8000 shots trapped on two devices, and a lot of people waiting, it was a long night of data recovery. I did manage to retrieve everything by morning, though.
  • NagoC50NagoC50 Registered Users Posts: 50 Big grins
    edited June 13, 2012
    Let me say --- this is not legal advice, I am not your lawyer and I am not even licensed to practice in Indiana BUT let me give you some friendly advice. If you are going to seek legal counsel and attempt to make a claim or seek some other remedy allowed under your state's laws, I would do so as soon as possible. There are pesky things called statutes of limitations that vary widely depending on the state and claim. If you wait too long, any rights you have may be time-barred.
  • AkovalAkoval Registered Users Posts: 3 Beginner grinner
    edited June 13, 2012
    Which memory card recovery software program would you recommend? I'm also calling an attorney in the morning. Big surprise, I tried texting her asking for the SD cards (again) and still no reply.


    Art Scott wrote: »
    Excellent memory card recovery software usually runs under $50 and that will allow you to recover any and all images of any and all formats on all cards, or you can choose the types and such...a lot of free ware only recovers the thumbs ....but it has been mentioned on here that some of us have recovered cards that have been filled and formatted several times over the course of a year or more and recovered the images that were first taken on the card.....it s not an impossible feet, but if this person is really un reputable they can just say they lost the cards when it comes down to it....that is why I still say have an attorney write the photog a letter asking for the cards or hard drive...yes hdd recover can run into the thousands of dollars easily ...
  • GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited June 13, 2012
    WillCAD wrote: »
    My amount of sympathy varies according to the situation.

    If you interviewed a dozen photographers and looked at all of their portfolios, and chose one whose work looked good, whose interview style meshed with yours, and whose price was right - and that photographer then lost all of your pics, how were you to know they were an idiot in photographer's clothing?

    We can only ever know one side of the story but going on plenty of have heard from people in similar situations, I'll be due dilligence was not followed.

    I don't think you need to know beans about photography to make a reasonable decision. For a start, from what a lot of people have told me of their tales of woe, they only sit down with one single shooter. Even with that, there still has to be clues.
    IF they have a nice studio that's been around a while then that would be a positive start. If they work from home, do they have an area set out or are you sitting in the middle of the lounge room and the "Photographer" just shifts a couple of baskets of washing to be folded to make way for you and yells at the kids to go to their rooms and turn off the TV.

    Does the person look professionally dressed or are they wearing daggy old jeans and a t-shirt about Y2K? Is their over all presentation professional or dodgy as all get out.? How do they compare to the service, presentation and look of the work compared to the studio down the road?
    Did you even look at a studio?

    You don't have to know about photography to make a judgement on things like this. On other things, if you are serious then you find out what to ask. That is what due diligence is about. And again, how much time went into research of the dress as against the shooter?
    I'll bet my arse that most girls educate themselves a whole load about wedding dresses and know more about them by the time they buy one than the time they started.

    To relate it to other things, how many stores do people look at before they buy a new TV and how much time the spend looking at them? How many stores did the bride look at before she bought her shoes?
    Cake decorators? How many lounge suits do people look at and do they learn to ask questions about them so they know what they are getting?

    And at the beginning of the day, If you are half serious about good pics, you get on the web and look up " How to choose a good wedding photographer " and by the time you are finished that coffee you made before you sat down and did that, you will be infinitely better off in knowing what to look for and what to ask.
    And as I say, You would only need to look it up if you were one of the 1 in 1000 brides that didn't have a stack of bridal magazines you'd need to pole Vault over with articles on that in them.

    Sorry, But there is no excuse for not putting in your due diligence and then bleating someone ripped you off or whatever. Far as I'm concerned that only gets you sympathy if you did YOUR homework first.
    No, it's not a guarantee that a perfectly reputable Shooter won't have a problem but then again if they do, Your not going to get fobbed off with some crap about "sent the disk and deleted the images" either.

    And as for young and lacking real world experience, If that's true, What the Fk are they doing getting married then? Creating another statistic for the divorce rate???
    If you can't pick a decent shooter, how the hell are you going to pick a suitable partner?? rolleyes1.gif

    It's all good and well to feel sorry for people with a sob story but as far as I'm concerned, sympathizing with those who really took the easy way out only perpetuates the behavior. I hope they are more careful when they decide to buy a house.

    I'll guarantee there aren't many people out there that got stung who went and saw 3 or more photographers and put similar or equal time into finding one as they spent looking at the wedding dress.
    In my experience, there are loads that booked the first shooter they saw and then complain about them.
  • WillCADWillCAD Registered Users Posts: 722 Major grins
    edited June 13, 2012
    Glort wrote: »
    We can only ever know one side of the story but going on plenty of have heard from people in similar situations, I'll be due dilligence was not followed.

    I don't think you need to know beans about photography to make a reasonable decision. For a start, from what a lot of people have told me of their tales of woe, they only sit down with one single shooter. Even with that, there still has to be clues.
    IF they have a nice studio that's been around a while then that would be a positive start. If they work from home, do they have an area set out or are you sitting in the middle of the lounge room and the "Photographer" just shifts a couple of baskets of washing to be folded to make way for you and yells at the kids to go to their rooms and turn off the TV.

    Does the person look professionally dressed or are they wearing daggy old jeans and a t-shirt about Y2K? Is their over all presentation professional or dodgy as all get out.? How do they compare to the service, presentation and look of the work compared to the studio down the road?
    Did you even look at a studio?

    You don't have to know about photography to make a judgement on things like this. On other things, if you are serious then you find out what to ask. That is what due diligence is about. And again, how much time went into research of the dress as against the shooter?
    I'll bet my arse that most girls educate themselves a whole load about wedding dresses and know more about them by the time they buy one than the time they started.

    To relate it to other things, how many stores do people look at before they buy a new TV and how much time the spend looking at them? How many stores did the bride look at before she bought her shoes?
    Cake decorators? How many lounge suits do people look at and do they learn to ask questions about them so they know what they are getting?

    And at the beginning of the day, If you are half serious about good pics, you get on the web and look up " How to choose a good wedding photographer " and by the time you are finished that coffee you made before you sat down and did that, you will be infinitely better off in knowing what to look for and what to ask.
    And as I say, You would only need to look it up if you were one of the 1 in 1000 brides that didn't have a stack of bridal magazines you'd need to pole Vault over with articles on that in them.

    Sorry, But there is no excuse for not putting in your due diligence and then bleating someone ripped you off or whatever. Far as I'm concerned that only gets you sympathy if you did YOUR homework first.
    No, it's not a guarantee that a perfectly reputable Shooter won't have a problem but then again if they do, Your not going to get fobbed off with some crap about "sent the disk and deleted the images" either.

    And as for young and lacking real world experience, If that's true, What the Fk are they doing getting married then? Creating another statistic for the divorce rate???
    If you can't pick a decent shooter, how the hell are you going to pick a suitable partner?? rolleyes1.gif

    It's all good and well to feel sorry for people with a sob story but as far as I'm concerned, sympathizing with those who really took the easy way out only perpetuates the behavior. I hope they are more careful when they decide to buy a house.

    I'll guarantee there aren't many people out there that got stung who went and saw 3 or more photographers and put similar or equal time into finding one as they spent looking at the wedding dress.
    In my experience, there are loads that booked the first shooter they saw and then complain about them.

    You're absolutely right about due diligence.

    But how is an 18-year old couple to know what due diligence entails? How would they know how to evaluate the outcome of that due diligence?

    Insufficient background can make a person woefully ignorant of what questions to ask, and even if they do somehow learn what questions to ask from a magazine article, they may be easily fooled by a fauxtographer feeding them a line of horse, er, puckey.

    You're holding their feet to the fire. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. Yup, they certainly made a big mistake hiring this idiot fauxtographer instead of a qualified professional. But I think it's an understandable mistake and I'm not going to castigate them for it, I'm going to offer them a little sympathy.
    What I said when I saw the Grand Canyon for the first time: "The wide ain't wide enough and the zoom don't zoom enough!"
  • GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited June 14, 2012
    Everyone will have a different POV. I'm sure you think i'm being too harsh, as I think you are being too sympathetic.

    An 18 yo can know exactly what questions to ask as I have said by spending a few minutes research on the net or in bridal mags. Like I said I bet due diligence came automatically when it came to choosing the dress and the shoes.
    I also think the age thing is a crock to be honest. If they are old enough to make the big decision of getting married, surely they are old enough to take responsibility for not doing their homework when they choose a shooter.

    I could be wrong, they may have done everything right and they deserve a lot of sympathy. I would like to know the truth though ( not that we ever probably will) as to how much effort and care was put into selecting the shooter. I'd not be surprised in the least if they booked the first person they actually saw and the decision was more price based than anything else.

    For sure the shooter is a dodge and shouldn't be in business, no question. Dodgy businesses have always been around right back and beyond the old snake oil salesmen and are in all area's of life. I have to think if nothing else these people hopefully have learnt a lesson that will give them a wake up call and hopefully making much bigger and costilier mistakes in the future that could really set them back and get them in trouble.

    I haven't seen any mention of wether the couples money was refunded. I'd be chasing the shooter for that at least ( even if it were only a few hundred bucks) as the product was not actually delivered. Don't have a clue what the laws are there but here unless the item gets to the clients hot little hand, excuses of failed post, couriers, or anything else short of unforseen acts of god makes the shooter in the wrong for not delivering the product.
    I'd be asking for a refund at least.

    Anyway, maybe they will be lucky and someone here will help them out with a reshoot and they can have something decent to look back on.
  • FoquesFoques Registered Users Posts: 1,951 Major grins
    edited June 14, 2012
    Art Scott wrote: »
    Excellent memory card recovery software usually runs under $50 and that will allow you to recover any and all images of any and all formats on all cards, or you can choose the types and such...a lot of free ware only recovers the thumbs ....but it has been mentioned on here that some of us have recovered cards that have been filled and formatted several times over the course of a year or more and recovered the images that were first taken on the card.....it s not an impossible feet, but if this person is really un reputable they can just say they lost the cards when it comes down to it....that is why I still say have an attorney write the photog a letter asking for the cards or hard drive...yes hdd recover can run into the thousands of dollars easily ...

    I would like to echo question above.

    My FT job is in service industry.. I do IT.

    While yes, a recovery software will run you 30-70$, and it will allow to recover data.. there is one big stipulation to this - data cannot be recovered if it was overwritten.

    If you want someone to start looking at layers of data, no matter whether it is a SSD, HDD, memory card, you will be looking at serious bill.

    That said, I would love to expand my knowledge to learn what software under 50$ will allow to recover data that was deleted from a memory card and overwritten multiple times.
    Arseny - the too honest guy.
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  • Art ScottArt Scott Registered Users Posts: 8,959 Major grins
    edited June 14, 2012
    Akoval wrote: »
    Which memory card recovery software program would you recommend? I'm also calling an attorney in the morning. Big surprise, I tried texting her asking for the SD cards (again) and still no reply.

    I have ussed with great success:
    1- Image Rescue by lexar...mine is the 1st version over 5 yrs old....it was free on my lexar CF cards...now V4 retails for 33.99

    2- Stellar Phoenix Photo Recovery ... .... ... http://tinyurl.com/2y3fmp they have 2 versions $39 and $59 ... ...

    Had great sucess with both...but Lexar Image Rescue is strictly for memory cards.....Stellar has been around since 1993 doing recovery...their Photo recovery software will work on memory cards, Cd's, dvd's, harddrives...etc etc...

    HTH

    Good Luck.
    "Genuine Fractals was, is and will always be the best solution for enlarging digital photos." ....Vincent Versace ... ... COPYRIGHT YOUR WORK ONLINE ... ... My Website

  • Art ScottArt Scott Registered Users Posts: 8,959 Major grins
    edited June 14, 2012
    Foques wrote: »
    I would like to echo question above.

    My FT job is in service industry.. I do IT.

    While yes, a recovery software will run you 30-70$, and it will allow to recover data.. there is one big stipulation to this - data cannot be recovered if it was overwritten.

    If you want someone to start looking at layers of data, no matter whether it is a SSD, HDD, memory card, you will be looking at serious bill.

    That said, I would love to expand my knowledge to learn what software under 50$ will allow to recover data that was deleted from a memory card and overwritten multiple times.

    I have used both Lexar Image Rescue and the Stellar Phoenix Photo recovery looking for images that were just taken on a corrupted card to find the recovery taking several hours and getting thousands of images off card, (that were shot and overwritten and formatted several times in the yr.) when I had taken less than 100 when it corrupted...was this a fluke...don't know...but Stellar Phoenix says it will work and it did for me.....


    As I said I know the cost of DATA BASE or whole drive recovery is horrendous, until one realizes that a lot of the companies will dismantle a HDD and rebuilt it in another case.... I had one estimated over 8 yrs ago for a crashed drive and it was at that time over $10 per mb and at that price it was around $5K and the company also said they did not charge for the amount of datra a person said was on the drive but the charge was based off the total capacity of the drives....I have no idea if this has changed since then.....y drive was a whopping 500mb drive full of images ... .... I did get it recovered by a computer science grad student that a friend of mine at Nasa put in contact with me... so it ony cost me a couple of hundred to recover all 400_mb of files...
    "Genuine Fractals was, is and will always be the best solution for enlarging digital photos." ....Vincent Versace ... ... COPYRIGHT YOUR WORK ONLINE ... ... My Website

  • AkovalAkoval Registered Users Posts: 3 Beginner grinner
    edited July 8, 2012
    Just checking back. The photographer just contacted me and told me that she FOUND OUR WEDDING PHOTOS!!!!! Thanks to all of you for replying back and for those of you who *cared*! I thought we'd never see our photos and had somewhat come to terms with it.
    I realize how completely over reactive and, okay, immature it was to rant and throw a temper tantrum over a dumb mistake. But I'd like for anyone ever reading this to understand that HMC photography spent SO SO SO much more time and lots of $$$$ to recover our photos, and truthfully-I'll probably appreciate those photos far more than I ever would have! She takes great photos, has real talent, and in her busy work schedule, found time for me, and I appreciate it so very much! Her facebook page is updated more often, where you can see her most recent work-and that she makes people happy. Thanks Heather!!!!!!!!
  • WillCADWillCAD Registered Users Posts: 722 Major grins
    edited July 12, 2012
    Akoval wrote: »
    Just checking back. The photographer just contacted me and told me that she FOUND OUR WEDDING PHOTOS!!!!! Thanks to all of you for replying back and for those of you who *cared*! I thought we'd never see our photos and had somewhat come to terms with it.
    I realize how completely over reactive and, okay, immature it was to rant and throw a temper tantrum over a dumb mistake. But I'd like for anyone ever reading this to understand that HMC photography spent SO SO SO much more time and lots of $$$$ to recover our photos, and truthfully-I'll probably appreciate those photos far more than I ever would have! She takes great photos, has real talent, and in her busy work schedule, found time for me, and I appreciate it so very much! Her facebook page is updated more often, where you can see her most recent work-and that she makes people happy. Thanks Heather!!!!!!!!

    Well, that's great news. I hope you'll post a few of the pics here for us to see.

    To be perfectly honest, however, the fact that the photographer was able - after all this time - to recover the photos, doesn't really ease my opinion of her. She still made irresponsible errors that smack of a rank amateur getting in way over her head. Maybe she's got talent as a photographer, and maybe she'll become a great wedding photographer one day, but for the moment, she's a dangerous poser who should not be trusted to shoot a wedding solo.
    What I said when I saw the Grand Canyon for the first time: "The wide ain't wide enough and the zoom don't zoom enough!"
  • GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited July 14, 2012
    Akoval wrote: »
    Just checking back. The photographer just contacted me and told me that she FOUND OUR WEDDING PHOTOS!!!!! Thanks to all of you for replying back and for those of you who *cared*! I thought we'd never see our photos and had somewhat come to terms with it.
    I realize how completely over reactive and, okay, immature it was to rant and throw a temper tantrum over a dumb mistake. But I'd like for anyone ever reading this to understand that HMC photography spent SO SO SO much more time and lots of $$$$ to recover our photos, and truthfully-I'll probably appreciate those photos far more than I ever would have! She takes great photos, has real talent, and in her busy work schedule, found time for me, and I appreciate it so very much! Her facebook page is updated more often, where you can see her most recent work-and that she makes people happy. Thanks Heather!!!!!!!!


    I think there is a lot in this for us pros as to the mentality of a lot of clients.
    Here some bad joke of an amateurish detriment to the profession totally stuffs up, undoubtedly lies, stresses the client about and then when they do manage to do something right, the client thinks the sun shines out of their fundamental orifice and in fact champions them to others.
    Amazing.

    A lot of real pros stress about perfect quality and exceeding customer expectations and delivering exceptional service ( which is as it should be) but then you can see from accounts like this just how low the bar really is and how Naieve a lot of clients are.

    I also think this really is an illustration of how much so many clients put on cost at the detriment of all else. Clearly there area category of clients that you could waffle on about quality and service till you are blue in the face but they really don't give a damn. So many clients these days are price focussed and a pro competing with a weekend warrior amateur really hasn't got a hope in hell.
    And the post in this thread show exactly why.

    As for being sympathetic or not, well I think my position on that was pretty obvious and so are the reasons why now.

    I too would REALLY like to see some of the great shots this talented photographer nearly lost but has managed to save.

    I was also wondering if at any time the shots were lost they did the least decent thing and offered a refund?
  • GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited July 14, 2012
    I managed to find some pics from the wedding in question.

    http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.173683522713069.43717.158943447520410&type=1
  • insanefredinsanefred Registered Users Posts: 604 Major grins
    edited July 14, 2012
    WillCAD wrote: »
    Well, that's great news. I hope you'll post a few of the pics here for us to see.

    To be perfectly honest, however, the fact that the photographer was able - after all this time - to recover the photos, doesn't really ease my opinion of her. She still made irresponsible errors that smack of a rank amateur getting in way over her head. Maybe she's got talent as a photographer, and maybe she'll become a great wedding photographer one day, but for the moment, she's a dangerous poser who should not be trusted to shoot a wedding solo.

    Yep, and those are kind words.
    Glort wrote: »
    I managed to find some pics from the wedding in question.

    http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.173683522713069.43717.158943447520410&type=1


    Those don't look too bad, just the post processing is so damn cliche. rolleyes1.gif
  • Ed911Ed911 Registered Users Posts: 1,306 Major grins
    edited July 15, 2012
    insanefred wrote: »
    Those don't look too bad, just the post processing is so damn cliché. rolleyes1.gif

    I think you are being too generous.

    In my opinion, for anyone shooting other than a throw-away WalMart special...the images that I looked at are terrible...if you are looking at the same 8-10 images that I saw...under exposed, soft...dead...no light...man...I'd hate for those to be mine.

    I see it all the time...not much of a photographer and little to no post processing skills and still think they can shoot weddings.

    But, I have to remember...some weddings are very simple 10 minute afairs...and any pictures at all are better than nothing.

    So, that's my opinion...for what it's worth...
    Remember, no one may want you to take pictures, but they all want to see them.
    Educate yourself like you'll live forever and live like you'll die tomorrow.

    Ed
  • Matthew SavilleMatthew Saville Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 3,352 Major grins
    edited July 15, 2012
    Ed911 wrote: »
    I think you are being too generous.

    In my opinion, for anyone shooting other than a throw-away WalMart special...the images that I looked at are terrible...if you are looking at the same 8-10 images that I saw...under exposed, soft...dead...no light...man...I'd hate for those to be mine.

    I see it all the time...not much of a photographer and little to no post processing skills and still think they can shoot weddings.

    But, I have to remember...some weddings are very simple 10 minute afairs...and any pictures at all are better than nothing.

    So, that's my opinion...for what it's worth...

    Unless the original photographer is requesting your opinion / critique, personally I would avoid dishing it that coldly. All it does is make the happy couple slightly less happy about their wedding photos. To them, these images probably just fine or even great looking...

    Just something to keep in mind for next time.

    =Matt=
    My first thought is always of light.” – Galen Rowell
    My SmugMug PortfolioMy Astro-Landscape Photo BlogDgrin Weddings Forum
  • GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited July 15, 2012
    Unless the original photographer is requesting your opinion / critique, personally I would avoid dishing it that coldly.

    Sorry but I think the pussy footing, politicly correct mamby pamby is the exact reason Highly sub standard shooters like the one mentioned get away with stuffing up the industry the way they do.
    There is some sort of limp wristed mentality that you have to be all nice and sweet and syrupy over crap that ought to be called outright for what it is and if the persons responsible are embarrassed or Humiliated, GOOD!

    They will either be inspired to lift their game or get out of it. Either way they won't be putting people through the dissapointment expressed in this story for whatever reason.
    All this softly politicaly correct mentality is doing with everything is making the world a far worse place and lowering the standards people once took for granted.

    IMHO there is nothing wrong with a direct, valid and honest assment of anything no matter how cold the truth may be.
    The last thing I would want is anyone pussying footing around any anything they commented in on my work because then I don't learn anything and keep making the same mistakes.
    I'm not saying a person has an excuse to be rude, but I do believe valid and honest criticism that is based on obvious fact should not have to be sugar coated.
    All it does is make the happy couple slightly less happy about their wedding photos. To them, these images probably just fine or even great looking...

    Which goes right with what I said before about why shooters are wasting their time with so many clients trying to do stand out quality work.

    The rebuttal I can hear to that already is about educating the clients. I think that is largely a fruitless exercise with many because a good amount of the market is price driven.
    I'm certainly not against educating the public though and if we just see slipshod work and don't say anything for fear of dissapointing someone, well that is doing anything but educating the market as far as I can see.

    What it does in fact do is condone the substandard work as being acceptable by way of not pointing out the deficiencies in it.

    From what I percieve in this case, the bride now thinks the sun shines out of the photographer and will show the pics around and most likley paint a very rosy picture of this person. In doing that others may go straight to them and book them without looking at anyone else because Mrs. Youngbride said they were great and even when the "post office" lost her CD of pics, They took all this time out of their busy schedule to find the pictures just for her. rolleyes1.gif

    If it's not bad enough that this client has been suckered in by this charletons lies and excuses and completely failed to understand the depth of the incompetence in the work practices of this wannabe,
    the suggestion is that she be kept blissfully in the dark as to how substandard the product she has recieved after all the stress is as well.

    I fail to see how this is in anyones interests bar the idiot with a camera impersonating a professional wedding photographer.

    No other photographer that does produce decent work and has professional practices in place will even get a look in if they hear this brides reccomendation. I have been in the game waay long enough to know that one reccomendation will get you the gig and they are in fact happy not to bother with looking at anyone else at all if they believe the shooter to be professional.

    These sub standard weekend warriors should be criticised directly and without reservation as they automaticly deserve and their shortcomings pointed out for all to see. How else is anyone outside the industry going to learn?

    Yes, the couple may be dissapointed over their poor selection of a vendor and their lack of due diligence but to not point it out only guarantees the cycle and paves the way for an endless cycle of people to also receive garbage for their money in the future.
  • Matthew SavilleMatthew Saville Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 3,352 Major grins
    edited July 16, 2012
    Glort wrote: »
    Sorry but I think the pussy footing, politicly correct mamby pamby is the exact reason Highly sub standard shooters like the one mentioned get away with stuffing up the industry the way they do.

    ...Which is exactly why I am all in favor of "ripping a new one", if someone is acting all professional when in fact they're seriously under-talented and/or severely jeopardizing priceless memories... You should meet me in person; I don't hesitate to tell a photographer that they aren't ready to "go pro" just yet. I'm quite the opposite of "mamby pamby". Even using that word makes me feel like a sissy. :-P And you make a good point about her satisfaction with the images potentially perpetuating the success of this under-qualified photographer. I can see that.

    I'm just wondering, was this particular crusade casualty worth it? While I wouldn't hesitate to rip a photographer a new one, I'd keep my mouth shut if I see a bride's wedding images and neither she nor the photographer are asking for a critique.

    =Matt=
    My first thought is always of light.” – Galen Rowell
    My SmugMug PortfolioMy Astro-Landscape Photo BlogDgrin Weddings Forum
  • FoquesFoques Registered Users Posts: 1,951 Major grins
    edited July 16, 2012
    Matt, this would be a good "political" path had it been off the forums. Matt, if you want to rip a new one, go to my first wedding thread, and do the ripping ;)

    I, for one, am glad that Ed said that.. I was wondering if I was just too picky or images did suck..

    Glort, thank you for saying what many want to but are too PC to say.

    I looked through her other images.. there were a few that I liked, but the bulk of work uploaded is not my taste at all.. That makes me wonder if the photog actually picks the "best" images out of the pack to upload. If she does.. oh dear.. I really need to get myself exposed better..
    Arseny - the too honest guy.
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  • Matthew SavilleMatthew Saville Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 3,352 Major grins
    edited July 16, 2012
    Foques wrote: »
    Matt, this would be a good "political" path had it been off the forums. Matt, if you want to rip a new one, go to my first wedding thread, and do the ripping ;)

    I, for one, am glad that Ed said that.. I was wondering if I was just too picky or images did suck..

    Glort, thank you for saying what many want to but are too PC to say.

    I looked through her other images.. there were a few that I liked, but the bulk of work uploaded is not my taste at all.. That makes me wonder if the photog actually picks the "best" images out of the pack to upload. If she does.. oh dear.. I really need to get myself exposed better..

    You guys aren't getting my point. My point was that I'm all in favor of saying these things, but I don't think it's worth it if you're just picking on the bride, putting down her wedding photos, and yet not even reaching the original photographer. That's all I'm saying. If the original photographer can read this, then by all means rip away.

    Or, do you truly think that you've "saved" some other potential bride from making the same mistake, or you've influenced some aspiring photographer to think twice? Maybe, maybe not.

    All I'm saying is that I pick my battles when I'm calling out a photographer on mediocre / bad work... Fair enough?

    =Matt
    My first thought is always of light.” – Galen Rowell
    My SmugMug PortfolioMy Astro-Landscape Photo BlogDgrin Weddings Forum
  • insanefredinsanefred Registered Users Posts: 604 Major grins
    edited July 16, 2012
    I agree with matt on this one. (that is kinda rare)

    The Bride and Groom have had already gone through a lot of BS at this point and the last thing we can do and tell them that their photos they got just plain sucked. Especially if we have not seen all of them of the wedding.

    Besides I have seen a lot worse, yet the bride and groom were more than happy with them. I tell people, that are interested in hiring me, to take a good look at my photos and if that is the style that they want. Otherwise I try to help them to find someone that fits their criteria. I don't act as "professional", but I get clients that have seen me work and my photos and they really like what they see. I may not be as good as many on this forum, but I do my best.
  • GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited July 17, 2012
    Foques wrote: »
    .. I really need to get myself exposed better..

    Yeah, I know EXACTLY what you Mean!
    Thinking the same thing myself!

    rolleyes1.gif
  • GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited July 17, 2012
    You guys aren't getting my point. My point was that I'm all in favor of saying these things, but I don't think it's worth it if you're just picking on the bride, putting down her wedding photos, and yet not even reaching the original photographer. That's all I'm saying. If the original photographer can read this, then by all means rip away.

    Or, do you truly think that you've "saved" some other potential bride from making the same mistake, or you've influenced some aspiring photographer to think twice? Maybe, maybe not.

    All I'm saying is that I pick my battles when I'm calling out a photographer on mediocre / bad work... Fair enough?

    =Matt

    Matt, you are entitled to rip into others and call your battles any way you see fit.
    The rest of us I assume, are entitled to do the same.

    I have not picked on the bride not put down her wedding photos but I certainly have lambasted the lack of professionalism of the photographer. I am astounded though that at after all this bride has been through with such a joke of a vendor, that she is still singing their praises.
    If she dosent get it yet and she reads my comments and they offend, then all I can say is it is something that anything less than offence would have not driven home to her.

    If being honest and discussing an example of a problem that is rampant and hugely detrimental to the industry upsets someone, Tough. If they are still that Naive at this point in the experience, they ought to be thankful for the lesson and wake up call before they make another silly and expensive mistake that could stuff up many years of their lives.

    Perhaps they may see the discussion, learn from it and pass some better advise onto people they know whom may end up in the same boat in future.
    If they don't see it, then there is no harm you are concerned about done.

    And to clarify my point, I am not ripping into anyone, I am merely pointing out an example of a problem and discussing it openly and honestly.
  • GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited July 17, 2012
    insanefred wrote: »
    I agree with matt on this one. (that is kinda rare)

    The Bride and Groom have had already gone through a lot of BS at this point and the last thing we can do and tell them that their photos they got just plain sucked. Especially if we have not seen all of them of the wedding.

    I don't believe anyone has done that or even critiqued the pics other than to say what they think of the style and quality overall.
    Do you have any reason to think that the shots that we have not seen would be of a different standard to the ones we have?
    Besides I have seen a lot worse, yet the bride and groom were more than happy with them.

    This hardly means the couple were treated in any way professionally nor received fair value for their money or a quality product. I am the first to say that the couples satisfaction with the product is paramount but I sure as hell would never espouse that was any type of excuse for substandard work!
    I tell people, that are interested in hiring me, to take a good look at my photos and if that is the style that they want. Otherwise I try to help them to find someone that fits their criteria. I don't act as "professional", but I get clients that have seen me work and my photos and they really like what they see. I may not be as good as many on this forum, but I do my best.

    You sound like you are an honest person and conduct yourself in a highly professional manner regardless of your self reservation's. I also have no doubt that you would have handled this couples wedding in a completely different manner. It sounds to me like you would have taken the due care required with the couples images in the first place. It dosent sound to me like you would have lied and invented the fabrications that are a near absoloute certainty this shooter did. I believe that had you some how stuffed up you would have been honest and offered to refund the clients money and taken all possible steps to recover their pictures before that.
    Completely different to what this fool shooter did.

    The quality of the photos are a minor issue in this case. The conduct of the photographer and their behaviour is the real worrying part. You may not be the best shooter in the world and I'm damn sure I'm not, however that does not mean our work is sub standard or any excuse why we can conduct our business dealings like amateurs and con merchants.

    Everything about this shooter and their business dealing with this couple stank. The have no right to be conducting business or taking money from people till they lift their game substantially.
    I take great exception to arse wholes like this creating a bad image of the business I have been in for a lot of years which lowers the credibility of my profession in the eyes of the public who put the bread on my table.
  • FoquesFoques Registered Users Posts: 1,951 Major grins
    edited July 17, 2012
    You guys aren't getting my point. My point was that I'm all in favor of saying these things, but I don't think it's worth it if you're just picking on the bride, putting down her wedding photos, and yet not even reaching the original photographer. That's all I'm saying. If the original photographer can read this, then by all means rip away.

    Or, do you truly think that you've "saved" some other potential bride from making the same mistake, or you've influenced some aspiring photographer to think twice? Maybe, maybe not.

    All I'm saying is that I pick my battles when I'm calling out a photographer on mediocre / bad work... Fair enough?

    =Matt
    Nah, Matt, I think we are. I feel like Glort and I are quite similar in the way we treat ignorance - we feel a need to call it out.
    I truly think that people are ignorant enough to not know what they are looking at when it comes down to photography, and need to be educated.
    Arseny - the too honest guy.
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  • D3XwannabeD3Xwannabe Registered Users Posts: 12 Big grins
    edited July 24, 2012
    http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/laf/2654675640.html

    Seriously? You delete all their photos after you send them a DVD in the mail? Wow.

    Maybe I'm just anal, but I have every single clients DVD along with all of the files still on my server. This just defies words for me that someone would say, "K, delivered, now delete." That means they think of photography as a job, not a career. At least to me it's what that says......

    Jim: I'm so anal I shoot both RAW and large jpgs and back them up onto two separate hard drives: one portable USB and my 4 TB wifi NAS drive! I also do everything electronically so I can control what pics they've chosen and ensure that they don't take the whole CD to Walmart and make enlargements of my photos that are my intellectual property.

    Cheers,

    CARL
    D3XWannabe
    CARL
    D3XWannabe
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