Another First Wedding Thread...

dbarnbydbarnby Registered Users Posts: 30 Big grins
edited August 3, 2012 in Weddings
Hey everyone,

I have read loads of the first wedding threads (I did my first one on thursday) and I won't ask anyone's opinion on the photos but what I am wondering is how do you get people to buy prints? On the first day they were up (yesterday) I got over 2000 views but have yet to get any purchases. I have adjusted the prices to what I think are reasonable (as cheap as possible)...

Any advice? Thank you all in advance and for all the useful info that is posted on the forums all the time!

Daniel Barnby
"I tried to keep both arts alive, but the camera won. I found that while the camera does not express the soul, perhaps a photograph can!" - Ansel Adams

www.danielbarnby.com

Comments

  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited July 16, 2012
    First I have a few questions. To it looks like you were a second shooter based on where the couple is looking in many photos. Is this the case? If so what was your arrangement with the primary. If you were the primary what did you deliver to the couple? If you delivered a CD that would be one reason for lack of purchases.

    Also, I know you didn't ask, but while you have some image nice captures, the WB and processing are less than what I would like to see. This also has a big bearing on sales.

    The next thing is people don't buy a lot of prints anymore, they are happy with seeing them online, or maybe a download. Generally for someone to but a print they need a reason. An emotional attachment to the people or event and a GREAT photo. Something above what all the folks and relatives got with there point and shoots.

    While there are limits based on type of image, event versus fine art, and your clientele as long as your pricing is within that certain range price will affect sales the least. Cheap prints rarely translate to more sales.

    Sam
  • QarikQarik Registered Users Posts: 4,959 Major grins
    edited July 16, 2012
    I don't seel prints. I sell online images and wedding albums. I don't think folks buy prints much anymore
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  • dbarnbydbarnby Registered Users Posts: 30 Big grins
    edited July 16, 2012
    Sam wrote: »
    First I have a few questions. To it looks like you were a second shooter based on where the couple is looking in many photos. Is this the case? If so what was your arrangement with the primary. If you were the primary what did you deliver to the couple? If you delivered a CD that would be one reason for lack of purchases.

    Also, I know you didn't ask, but while you have some image nice captures, the WB and processing are less than what I would like to see. This also has a big bearing on sales.

    The next thing is people don't buy a lot of prints anymore, they are happy with seeing them online, or maybe a download. Generally for someone to but a print they need a reason. An emotional attachment to the people or event and a GREAT photo. Something above what all the folks and relatives got with there point and shoots.

    While there are limits based on type of image, event versus fine art, and your clientele as long as your pricing is within that certain range price will affect sales the least. Cheap prints rarely translate to more sales.

    Sam


    Hey Sam, I wasn't even a second shooter - literally just there as a guest taking photos. And yeah totally new to the post-processing and I had a lot of issues with the white balance indoors at the reception - there were heaters in there that gave off an awful red glow (even preset white balance made people look ghastly ill) so was a big learning experience.

    So far I haven't given the couple anything (they are on the honeymoon and total black out from communications) but I will be giving them the files when they are back - again they were friends who invited me along and let me take some shots :)

    If you have any advice on post-processing techniques or how to get people looking nice and healthy under weird lighting conditions please share - I am here to learn :)

    All the Best,

    Dan
    "I tried to keep both arts alive, but the camera won. I found that while the camera does not express the soul, perhaps a photograph can!" - Ansel Adams

    www.danielbarnby.com
  • dbarnbydbarnby Registered Users Posts: 30 Big grins
    edited July 16, 2012
    Qarik wrote: »
    I don't seel prints. I sell online images and wedding albums. I don't think folks buy prints much anymore


    Really interesting that they don't. Shame about our digital age...

    All the Best,

    Dan
    "I tried to keep both arts alive, but the camera won. I found that while the camera does not express the soul, perhaps a photograph can!" - Ansel Adams

    www.danielbarnby.com
  • heatherfeatherheatherfeather Registered Users Posts: 2,738 Major grins
    edited July 16, 2012
    Hi Dan,
    Look at it this way... you weren't the hired pro... you were taking photos of his poses.... AND you are offering them up for sale to the bride and groom. It is kinda like piggybacking on someone else's hard work, organization and planning, and then undercutting his prices. It is a little bit of a professional foul. You might consider removing them from your "for sale" galleries unless you have an agreement with both the bride and groom... and the hired professional. I can guarantee that if you do go pro, that kind of action will not garner you professional recommendations.

    That being said: I never mind people taking photos of my poses or during the ceremonies because:
    1. I am a professional. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that my photos are way better than anything a guests is going to make. If the guest was THAT good, then they would have been hired, not me. I also have the prime angle and feel free to ask people to move if they are in my way or my shot.
    2. I have a post processing workflow that has taken me years to develop. I am consistent.
    3. I know how to handle mixed lighting... low lighting...rain... sleet... snow... crabby inlaws...and other tricky situations that always occur in weddings... in camera.

    All that to say: Practicing at a wedding is a great idea. You should shoot as much and as often as you can. Just be careful to respect the work of the hired pro, especially if you want others to respect you when you are in his shoes.
  • Matthew SavilleMatthew Saville Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 3,352 Major grins
    edited July 16, 2012
    Qarik wrote: »
    I don't seel prints. I sell online images and wedding albums. I don't think folks buy prints much anymore

    Does nobody hang art on their walls anymore? I think you're just not in the right market, or have not positioned yourself correctly, to sell prints. Print sales is still a HUGE industry in many markets. Senior portraits and family portraits, mostly, but also for weddings and general portraiture too.

    I'm not just trying to show you how to be money-grubbing. I'm just saying that I think physical products will NEVER die. And while some clienteles may wish to make their own (mediocre?) prints from costco or wherever, other markets are ready to spend a little extra on a QUALITY physical product...

    =Matt=
    My first thought is always of light.” – Galen Rowell
    My SmugMug PortfolioMy Astro-Landscape Photo BlogDgrin Weddings Forum
  • Matthew SavilleMatthew Saville Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 3,352 Major grins
    edited July 16, 2012
    dbarnby wrote: »
    Hey Sam, I wasn't even a second shooter - literally just there as a guest taking photos. And yeah totally new to the post-processing and I had a lot of issues with the white balance indoors at the reception - there were heaters in there that gave off an awful red glow (even preset white balance made people look ghastly ill) so was a big learning experience.

    So far I haven't given the couple anything (they are on the honeymoon and total black out from communications) but I will be giving them the files when they are back - again they were friends who invited me along and let me take some shots :)

    If you have any advice on post-processing techniques or how to get people looking nice and healthy under weird lighting conditions please share - I am here to learn :)

    All the Best,

    Dan
    Dude, not cool. You shouldn't expect to make a profit as an uncle bob. Honestly, if you're just starting out and shooting the wedding of a friend, (over the shoulder of the paid pro?) ...you should just be giving your images directly to the bride and groom, and maybe sharing a few images online on facebook.

    Honestly I would just say, slow down, pace yourself. Try to avoid turning a buck on friends and family, until you're ready to do so in a truly professional capacity, and deliver a quality service and product.

    If anything, when I shoot events for friends and family, I set my SmugMug pricing to zero markup and I enable the download of high-res images. Of course I'm not just starting out anymore and I understand that money is money and you gotta make it somewhere, but I would still say this isn't what you should be worrying about, yet...

    =Matt=
    My first thought is always of light.” – Galen Rowell
    My SmugMug PortfolioMy Astro-Landscape Photo BlogDgrin Weddings Forum
  • insanefredinsanefred Registered Users Posts: 604 Major grins
    edited July 17, 2012
    dbarnby wrote: »
    Hey Sam, I wasn't even a second shooter - literally just there as a guest taking photos. And yeah totally new to the post-processing and I had a lot of issues with the white balance indoors at the reception - there were heaters in there that gave off an awful red glow (even preset white balance made people look ghastly ill) so was a big learning experience.

    So far I haven't given the couple anything (they are on the honeymoon and total black out from communications) but I will be giving them the files when they are back - again they were friends who invited me along and let me take some shots :)

    If you have any advice on post-processing techniques or how to get people looking nice and healthy under weird lighting conditions please share - I am here to learn :)

    All the Best,

    Dan


    And you want to charge them for prints? I am pretty sure they happily invited you to come and take some snapshots if you wanted to. Not to try to make a profit on your invitation, especially if they already hired someone. That is just plain rude.
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited July 17, 2012
    Thanks for clarifying your status at the wedding.

    As others have said, trying to sell images you took while a guest is a real no no.

    Use things like this as a learning experience. Your images are not ready for prime time so the emphasis shouldn't be how to sell them but to learn photography and how to create great images.

    There isn't any one technique to post processing. It's learning the basics first then building upon that to increase your knowledge and skill to develop your own look. Take a course, find some online tutorials, and practice.

    Please be respectful of the photographer who has the responsibility of capturing the couples wedding day, and don't interfere or shadow him or her the whole day.

    Sam
  • dbarnbydbarnby Registered Users Posts: 30 Big grins
    edited July 17, 2012
    Hey all,

    Totally understand the big no-no's and that it could be seen as rude - both the bride and groom told me to do it this way, so that if there is a picture they liked then they would be able to give me something for it, and to see what kind of prices it would be at (I am not with-holding their photos!). Otherwise I would not have charged anything and once they get back from the honeymoon they will get all the photos no worries.

    Also I didn't get in the way of the pro at all. If anything I was doing my best to help her out, as it was one of her first weddings too. I knew that I wasn't going for any of the posed shots - just went for the in between ones when someone made a joke.

    I do understand that you actual pros could find everything I have done offensive but the whole idea was the groom's, to try and help me get a feel for it and start out.

    The question was a lot more general really in asking how do you convert views to sales.

    Dan
    "I tried to keep both arts alive, but the camera won. I found that while the camera does not express the soul, perhaps a photograph can!" - Ansel Adams

    www.danielbarnby.com
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited July 17, 2012
    dbarnby wrote: »
    Hey all,

    Totally understand the big no-no's and that it could be seen as rude - both the bride and groom told me to do it this way, so that if there is a picture they liked then they would be able to give me something for it, and to see what kind of prices it would be at (I am not with-holding their photos!). Otherwise I would not have charged anything and once they get back from the honeymoon they will get all the photos no worries.

    Now I am grumpy. First off it's not seen as rude, it is rude, unethical and unprofessional. The Bride and Groom don't understand photography and may be just trying to help you out, but it is still up to you to do the right thing.

    Also I can't understand the statement about not with-holding their photos or you wouldn't be charging?

    Posting your guest photos for other guests to view and giving them to the couple has nothing to do with posting them for sale.
    Also I didn't get in the way of the pro at all. If anything I was doing my best to help her out, as it was one of her first weddings too. I knew that I wasn't going for any of the posed shots - just went for the in between ones when someone made a joke.

    How did you help her? Did you carry her gear? Hold reflectors? Round up family and guests? Wasn't going for the posed shots but took images in between the pro's? Sounds like shadowing.
    I do understand that you actual pros could find everything I have done offensive but the whole idea was the groom's, to try and help me get a feel for it and start out.

    It doesn't matter if it's the groom's idea. It is up to you to know what is right and what is wrong.
    The question was a lot more general really in asking how do you convert views to sales.

    Dan

    Most here have a great interest in photography as well as the state of photography as a business. I assumed you wanted to learn and get the advice from those who have more experience than yourself. Your getting good advice. The best thing you could do is listen and learn, not make excuses or rationalize. If all you want is to sell sub par beginners images without learning the rules and ethics of business in general or the profession of photography, I for one have no interest in furthering that effort.

    Sam
  • dbarnbydbarnby Registered Users Posts: 30 Big grins
    edited July 17, 2012
    Sam wrote: »
    Now I am grumpy. First off it's not seen as rude, it is rude, unethical and unprofessional. The Bride and Groom don't understand photography and may be just trying to help you out, but it is still up to you to do the right thing.

    Also I can't understand the statement about not with-holding their photos or you wouldn't be charging?

    Posting your guest photos for other guests to view and giving them to the couple has nothing to do with posting them for sale.



    How did you help her? Did you carry her gear? Hold reflectors? Round up family and guests? Wasn't going for the posed shots but took images in between the pro's? Sounds like shadowing.



    It doesn't matter if it's the groom's idea. It is up to you to know what is right and what is wrong.



    Most here have a great interest in photography as well as the state of photography as a business. I assumed you wanted to learn and get the advice from those who have more experience than yourself. Your getting good advice. The best thing you could do is listen and learn, not make excuses or rationalize. If all you want is to sell sub par beginners images without learning the rules and ethics of business in general or the profession of photography, I for one have no interest in furthering that effort.

    Sam


    Hi Sam,

    There are many complaints on these forums and others about going totally off topic of the thread. What ever my arrangement is with the couple, if I am trying to sell them, give them away for free or anything else does not come into the question I originally asked. I did not even post a link to the album, did not ask for critique on the photos (not on purpose, just wasn't part of my question).

    Everyone who has posted has given me good advice I know and I have taken all of that in and feel very embarrassed because I am now being frowned upon by the community I enjoy being a part of.

    The question regarding the other pro and how I helped - for starters, read what I said. She is also starting, has done a couple of weddings, this was my first. How do you qualify a pro? because that is not what she was - we were both friends, one asked specifically to take photos, and I got asked as a guest and then to take photos, for me and them.

    But again, all of that is off topic. My question was "I am wondering is how do you get people to buy prints?" and actually stated "I won't ask anyone's opinion on the photos".

    Please stay on topic and I am sorry that I have angered you so obviously, but stay on topic, don't think that everyone is trying to cheat everyone and maybe you won't get as angry for no reason.
    "I tried to keep both arts alive, but the camera won. I found that while the camera does not express the soul, perhaps a photograph can!" - Ansel Adams

    www.danielbarnby.com
  • YaflyyadieYaflyyadie Registered Users Posts: 558 Major grins
    edited July 17, 2012
    You will get people to buy prints when you have :
    1.- First quality photos
    2. -Professional quality photos
    3.- Unsurpassed quality photos.
    4.-THE WILL TO LISTEN, PRACTICE AND BECOME THE BEST OF THE BEST.
    5.- Never get personal, just get professionally inclined.

    I have learned this by experience and the advise of all the ones that have posted
    and many others that havent replied to you yet, they have skinned me many times, but I appreciate that today, they have tamed my EGO.
    By the way, no atempt is made to argue with you or change your ways, that's up for you to evaluate and decide.
    Y.

    Ps. This is my personal opinion and got nothing to do to with their replies.
    Y.
  • FoquesFoques Registered Users Posts: 1,951 Major grins
    edited July 17, 2012
    Yaflyyadie wrote: »
    You will get people to buy prints when you have :
    1.- First quality photos
    2. -Professional quality photos
    3.- Unsurpassed quality photos.
    4.-THE WILL TO LISTEN, PRACTICE AND BECOME THE BEST OF THE BEST.
    5.- Never get personal, just get professionally inclined.

    I have learned this by experience and the advise of all the ones that have posted
    and many others that havent replied to you yet, they have skinned me many times, but I appreciate that today, they have tamed my EGO.
    By the way, no atempt is made to argue with you or change your ways, that's up for you to evaluate and decide.
    Y.

    Ps. This is my personal opinion and got nothing to do to with their replies.
    Y.

    how I wish it was true. On daily basis, I see the proof of exact opposite :(
    Arseny - the too honest guy.
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  • insanefredinsanefred Registered Users Posts: 604 Major grins
    edited July 17, 2012
    dbarnby wrote: »
    Hi Sam,

    There are many complaints on these forums and others about going totally off topic of the thread. What ever my arrangement is with the couple, if I am trying to sell them, give them away for free or anything else does not come into the question I originally asked. I did not even post a link to the album, did not ask for critique on the photos (not on purpose, just wasn't part of my question).

    Everyone who has posted has given me good advice I know and I have taken all of that in and feel very embarrassed because I am now being frowned upon by the community I enjoy being a part of.

    The question regarding the other pro and how I helped - for starters, read what I said. She is also starting, has done a couple of weddings, this was my first. How do you qualify a pro? because that is not what she was - we were both friends, one asked specifically to take photos, and I got asked as a guest and then to take photos, for me and them.

    But again, all of that is off topic. My question was "I am wondering is how do you get people to buy prints?" and actually stated "I won't ask anyone's opinion on the photos".

    Please stay on topic and I am sorry that I have angered you so obviously, but stay on topic, don't think that everyone is trying to cheat everyone and maybe you won't get as angry for no reason.


    How you get to sell prints does involve the level of professionalism that you have presented.
    If I was another guest at the wedding and you told me your website and said I can buy prints of this wedding. As a potential client, I would notice how you present yourself, how you dress, how well you seem to know your stuff and look at your work or even how you work. Especially your quality of work and style. You are not just selling prints you are selling yourself too.
    I can tell you, as far as you presented yourself to us, you have a long ways to go.
  • YaflyyadieYaflyyadie Registered Users Posts: 558 Major grins
    edited July 17, 2012
    Foques wrote: »
    how I wish it was true. On daily basis, I see the proof of exact opposite :(

    Nothing we can do, just keep wishing.ne_nau.gif
    Carlos
  • wave01wave01 Registered Users Posts: 204 Major grins
    edited July 18, 2012
    I think that one reason you cannot sell your work is, everyone else at weddings has a digital camera and are taking the same shots as you.
  • VayCayMomVayCayMom Registered Users Posts: 1,870 Major grins
    edited July 18, 2012
    When you look at stuff in a catalog but don't buy it, why not? Remember these images were taken for the bride and groom according to you, grooms request. They have not looked at the images yet, so you want to know why the other guests aren't buying your images after they look at them? Maybe they are waiting to see the stuff the other photographer puts out there.
    Trudy
    www.CottageInk.smugmug.com

    NIKON D700
  • Matthew SavilleMatthew Saville Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 3,352 Major grins
    edited July 19, 2012
    I think it is indeed a game-changer if it was the groom's idea. Basically, they're just tipping you or paying you simply for the convenience of printing out a photo for them. It is a thank-you for showing up and snapping a few photos.

    As long as the paid pro got the shots they need, and is happy with they pay they received, I see no offense. Sure, if it was done in secret against a veteran pro's contract policies, or if the pro had lost shooting opportunities or something, that'd be different. But this sounds like two beginner wedding photographers just in different learning phases of their career...


    Of course the original question was still, "why no print sales?" And to that I say, well, I believe we've sufficiently answered that question. The bottom line is that it's slow going if you want to get into professional photography this way. And you have to keep financial stability and TIME on your side, if you're going to survive. So keep a day job, but don't give up on the photography thing...

    :-)

    =Matt=
    My first thought is always of light.” – Galen Rowell
    My SmugMug PortfolioMy Astro-Landscape Photo BlogDgrin Weddings Forum
  • Pure EnergyPure Energy Registered Users Posts: 180 Major grins
    edited August 3, 2012
    Sam wrote: »
    If you delivered a CD that would be one reason for lack of purchases.

    Also, I know you didn't ask, but while you have some image nice captures, the WB and processing are less than what I would like to see. This also has a big bearing on sales.

    The next thing is people don't buy a lot of prints anymore, they are happy with seeing them online, or maybe a download. Generally for someone to but a print they need a reason. An emotional attachment to the people or event and a GREAT photo. Something above what all the folks and relatives got with there point and shoots.

    While there are limits based on type of image, event versus fine art, and your clientele as long as your pricing is within that certain range price will affect sales the least. Cheap prints rarely translate to more sales.

    Sam

    Your site is currently like the cd you will give to the bride and groom. Anyone that has seen it and knows how, NOW HAS A COPY.

    What's the look and feel you want on your site and wedding photos? If you're paid up front a decent amount, what you post and how may not concern you for lost online sales. But you still might want to consider reducing the size posted and add a watermark. The more obtrusive a watermark is, the more likely you'll have sales.

    I like the effect a few of your photos have but it doesn't hold up for all of the photos as a whole. Check out color balance in the help section on SM.
    Sam wrote: »
    Now I am grumpy. First off it's not seen as rude, it is rude, unethical and unprofessional.

    I think I understand the situation the OP is in. No matter what the story is, if you're not a pro that has been paid up front to shoot at a wedding, whatever you do is awkward. As a pro, I don't want to give any photos away for free but I might for a friend or as a gift.

    As a friend or a relative, it pains me to hear when people are ready to spend a great amount of money for someone else's photos and here I am a starving artist and they want my photos for free? Worse yet, they want me to print them out and give them all the photos for free. You have got to be kidding me. No wonder some pros leave their cameras behind sometimes.

    Then there are the people I classify as in between. If they can't pay my low print prices, then they probably want them for free and I'm not into that but that's okay atm. Perhaps, I'll make those galleries public someday with my higher public prices and we'll just see how much the old prices are missed.
    dbarnby wrote: »
    My question was "I am wondering is how do you get people to buy prints?" and actually stated "I won't ask anyone's opinion on the photos".

    After the initial posting of images, for your situation I would consider coordinating with the other photographer an email blast with your link and her link. People can choose the best photos to purchase, that is, if they respect you and don't right click save, etc.

    After that, you'll have to get creative to make some sales. One idea is to create a new portfolio piece to show potential new clients and the current B&G.
    wave01 wrote: »
    I think that one reason you cannot sell your work is, everyone else at weddings has a digital camera and are taking the same shots as you.

    Another reason a PRO WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHER will be paid up front and will be respected as the primary professional photographer on the scene. But besides that, where are these photos from the other guests going?

    Is the B&G giving away these photos to everyone in attendance at the wedding for free as well as your photos too? Check out the guest upload feature and see if you can work it into what you're doing. But doing so sends a message, so you should consider how you want to shape that message as well as the look and feel of your site that leaves an impression on the clients you seek.
    Of course the original question was still, "why no print sales?" And to that I say, well, I believe we've sufficiently answered that question. The bottom line is that it's slow going if you want to get into professional photography this way. And you have to keep financial stability and TIME on your side, if you're going to survive. So keep a day job, but don't give up on the photography thing...

    :-)

    =Matt=

    We're almost done beating this dead horse to death... but I wouldn't say we've "sufficiently" done so.

    Lots of photographers share the same stories: "I never made money until I raised my prices" or "thank god, I had a day job for many, many, many years," etc., and all I can say now is good luck to you, especially, in this age of "free for all" regarding digital content.
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