help! shooting hockey game, I need some advice

sonny_c · December 20, 2008

In November I was asked to shoot a hockey game. Since I've never shot one before I informed the coach this session would be a test shoot before we agreed to shoot more games later in the season. Walking into the place I knew right off the lighting would be horrible and difficult to shoot. One thing that was cool is the coaches let me shoot from the bench.

For the past couple of days I've been looking through the Sports section and sifting through hockey posts. I've seen some amazing youth hockey photography. I'm just wondering how you guys get you photos to look so bright? Photograph the action with crisp, clean images? And more importantly....low to no digital noise?

First thing I noticed when I got home was the WB is all over the place. I'm guessing because the indoor lights cycle. Second, the noise is horrible even at ISO1600...3200 was worse.

I've used Noiseware in post processing on my images but that doesn't seem to help. When I boost the exposure in Lightroom 2.2 or bring up the fill light or brightness, the noise seems to magnify. Also, my photos seem to have a dingy yellow look. Lightroom is reading the tempature as 4000K. Because the lighting was bad the exposure was jumping all over the place. On some photos I would boost exposure +.10 - +1.50.

I'm looking for help, tips, advice, tricks, secrets, or anything to help me improve.

Below are some photos from the game and my info.

Specs and EXIF:
I used a Canon Mark II N and a Canon 70-200L IS.
ISO 1600
Apeture f/2.8
Shutrer Speeds: 1/250-1/400
Aperture Priority
AI Servo
Evaluative metering
Auto White Balance

cmkultradome · December 20, 2008

I'm also relatively new here (just a hobbyist hockey mom) and shoot a lot of hockey. I have picked up some excellent advice from this forum. It's funny because I am shooting with the same lens (I use a Canon 40D), same ISO, and same shutter speeds. The two biggest tips I can give you that were given to me from this forum are:

1) Shoot in Manual Mode (its a little scary at first) - all that bright white ice really seems to throw off the metering. Look at your histogram and adjust from there.

2) Use a custome white balance - I use a picture of the ice and re-set the white balance every time I move to a different location in the rink.

My pictures are nothing compared to most of the sports photographers here, but I have definitely seen improvement in my shots simply using these two tips. Good Luck!!

Stephanie

dbaker1221 · December 21, 2008

Since none of the more experiance sport shooters have answered this , I'll throw in my 2 cents.

I shoot nikon so canon is a bit different. I believe the mark is supposed to be good at higher isos. If you underexpose a shot too much & then try to bring it back in pp you will have more noise to deal with than if you expose it correctly in camera. I would guess a higher Iso 2000 + and shutter speeds at 250 to 400.
I also agree that all that white is making your meter read that the photo is bright,.... but your not shooting the ice. so maybe overexpose by a stop.
for instance when I'm shooting a cardinal in the snow I know the camera will tell me it's metered ok but when I look at the shot the bird will be too dark. so I usually have my camera shoot +1 or so.

aktse · December 21, 2008

dbaker1221 wrote:

If you underexpose a shot too much & then try to bring it back in pp you will have more noise to deal with than if you expose it correctly in camera. I would guess a higher Iso 2000 + and shutter speeds at 250 to 400.
I also agree that all that white is making your meter read that the photo is bright,.... but your not shooting the ice. so maybe overexpose by a stop.
for instance when I'm shooting a cardinal in the snow I know the camera will tell me it's metered ok but when I look at the shot the bird will be too dark. so I usually have my camera shoot +1 or so.

I couldn't have said it better myself -- you're underexposing and attempting to fix in post which will increase the noise. And double checking -- are you doing fix via a RAW file or forcing major adjustments (exposure + WB) through a jpg file?

And this thread is where i send most people -- it contains most of my hockey info.

sonny_c wrote:

I'm just wondering how you guys get you photos to look so bright? Photograph the action with crisp, clean images? And more importantly....low to no digital noise?

My secret -- nail the exposure as much as possible during in camera rather than fixing in post. I can do it at most of the rinks the bay area and they're not known for the light. I can't do it in one rink, but that's because the light cycles and for those shots, I just adjust WB in selected batches since I've timed the cycle.

sonny_c wrote:

First thing I noticed when I got home was the WB is all over the place. I'm guessing because the indoor lights cycle. Second, the noise is horrible even at ISO1600...3200 was worse.

AWB is horrible. Use custom and for best results, use a white balance tool and my current choice is the one by Phoxle (i own seven different tools) for these reasons. You can use the ice in a pinch, but this thread will tell you that a WB tool is worth the money.

That being said, if the lights cycle, you will be adjusting the temperature things in post.

sonny_c wrote:

.... Also, my photos seem to have a dingy yellow look. Lightroom is reading the temperature as 4000K. Because the lighting was bad the exposure was jumping all over the place. On some photos I would boost exposure +.10 - +1.50.

Dingy yellow signifies incorrect WB.

Every once in a while, I do everything to set the white balance, but forget to change the camera setting to custom. Oops! This is dingy yellow...

Even with changing lights, I still CWB to one of the cycles because there will be some frames that I won't have touch the temps (versus all of them). Light cycling looks like this:

Also, if you're shooting AV, you need to exposure compensate about one-stop. The ice fools the metering and you'll be underexposed.

However, you are better off going to M mode.

I hope this helps

edited: add photo of "dingy yellow" to illustrate the difference between wrong white balance and cycling of light.

Ann McRae · December 21, 2008

Yay! April. I love your visual of cycling lights!

I have the 1dMkIIN, and suggest you force ISO to 3200. That will really help.

I haven't shot hockey with it but do shoot indoor soccer in a total dungeon, and shoot ISO 3200, f2.2 1/320 with the 135mmf2.0. I am still underexposed but find that its not so much too add too much noise. Also can manage that in LR2. I figure if I get anything amazing, I will then invest in real noise reduction software.

ann

sonny_c · December 21, 2008

WOW! This is awesome!! There is a ton of information here. Thank you so much!!!

Dave - On my first couple of test shots I noticed the LCD was showing signs of clipping on the ice. So I then adjusted my exposure -2/3 of a stop down. I was afraid of blowing out the ice a losing detail. After reading your suggestion, I was making the problem worse. Thanks for the tip!

April - First of all, I looked at your smugmug hockey galleries and I was blown away! Your stuff is amazing!!

I am shooting in RAW but not in Manual Mode. If you shoot manual, how do you keep your exposure from being under exposed or over exposed when the lighting changes on certain parts of the ice? This was obvious the first time I looked at the ice. I could see dark and bright spots. I'm guessing some of the lights are stronger than the others.

I do have a WhiBal card, but it also requires someone to hold it while I take a shot. I'll have to look into the SpectraSnap. What size SpectraSnap did you buy? Did you buy the neutral or warming version?

I will be reading through your other links. Hopefully I won't have too many more questions.

aktse · December 22, 2008

sonny_c wrote:

April - First of all, I looked at your smugmug hockey galleries and I was blown away! Your stuff is amazing!!

I am shooting in RAW but not in Manual Mode. If you shoot manual, how do you keep your exposure from being under exposed or over exposed when the lighting changes on certain parts of the ice? This was obvious the first time I looked at the ice. I could see dark and bright spots. I'm guessing some of the lights are stronger than the others.

I do have a WhiBal card, but it also requires someone to hold it while I take a shot. I'll have to look into the SpectraSnap. What size SpectraSnap did you buy? Did you buy the neutral or warming version?

I will be reading through your other links. Hopefully I won't have too many more questions.

Thanks for your kind words; I've worked on taking decent hockey photos even though I'm just a hobbyist.

As for exposure -- it's the same answer I give people for any subject. Know your subject and it's environment.

You are the pro -- its up to you learn where the exposure changes and adjust on the fly. In some ways, it's slightly easier than shootout outside (only slightly) because the lighting can be predictable and doesn't change like the sun. I have never told anyone that hockey photography is easy...

I know exactly what the exposure need to be, where I can and cannot shoot, which piece of glass is clean, which light is broken, which one is turned on 1/2 power, which piece of glass is tinted, what shots I can take with the exposure settings set on my camera, etc.

How do I know? Experience. And I'm always checking my histograms and focus points and I adjust as needed.

And either spectrasnap works well and I got the biggest size since of my lenses has a thread size of 105.

Post if you have any more questions and please share your results. Good luck.

David Evertsen · December 22, 2008

I love your pictures, I have the same WB problem when I shoot Ice Hockey here in Orlando. Yeah in Orlando, I have shot some youth games for my nephew and it was really fun. I always shoot Manual and drift between 1600 and 3200 depending on rink and get to stay minimum of 1/400 and faster but always overexpose to a small degree to get inside the helmet. I am working on my CWB skills but have found that tungsten on my WB really works well for this. It really makes sure I don't get the brown cyling of the lights in the pictures. Any thoughts on this setting for these lights?? I also use Tungsten for Dance pictures so the faces don't look orange.

David Evertsen
www.phaboulousphotos.com

aktse · December 22, 2008

David Evertsen wrote:

Any thoughts on this setting for these lights??

Indoor lights will vary and you can not predicted based upon a verbal description of light color -- there are too many different types of light. Custom white balance is your best friend.

You can use something generic like a white plate, Pringles lids, the ice, etc., but this thread will tell you (with examples) that there is value in an engineered white-balance filter.

If you can spend the money and remember to use it, it will help, but in a pinch, use something white.

If that fails, fix the photos in post.

David Evertsen · December 23, 2008

aktse wrote:

Indoor lights will vary and you can not predicted based upon a verbal description of light color -- there are too many different types of light. Custom white balance is your best friend.

You can use something generic like a white plate, Pringles lids, the ice, etc., but this thread will tell you (with examples) that there is value in an engineered white-balance filter.

If you can spend the money and remember to use it, it will help, but in a pinch, use something white.

If that fails, fix the photos in post.

I shoot at the Dance studio a lot and the walls are pink/mauve/some nasty color with Fluorescent lights and I really need to learn CWB, get an expodisc or something like that to make life work. I end up praying the pictures don't suck up there. I can't find a descriptive setting that will work. I usually try to cure the symptom and not solve the problem of setting a CWB. This thread has been a reall Eye Opener

!!

Thanks very much,
David Evertsen
www.phabulousphotos.com

aktse · December 23, 2008

David Evertsen wrote:

I shoot at the Dance studio a lot and the walls are pink/mauve/some nasty color with Fluorescent lights and I really need to learn CWB, get an expodisc or something like that to make life work. I end up praying the pictures don't suck up there. I can't find a descriptive setting that will work. I usually try to cure the symptom and not solve the problem of setting a CWB. This thread has been a reall Eye Opener !!

Note -- Setting a CWB will not fix all photos color problems. Remember -- light can change, cycles, different lights in different parts of the room, etc. and in dance productions,different stage lighting is used.

My suggestions for CWB are valid for most hockey rinks (and indoor sports) that does not have lights that cycle and it's just a preference. My preference -- my choice.

The color cast can easily be fixed in post process and I've done it many times. And most pro photographers leave it on auto white balance and bulk adjust the color temperature in post process. In LR2 --- it just takes a few clicks (3? -- adjust one, select all, apply all?), and you're done for all of your photos. Painless and effortless and almost thoughtless.

It's just a matter of choice... I regularly suggest CWB since most people who ask hockey questions do not understand color temperature, do not use a post process work flow that can account for temperature shifts, and might not use color calibrated monitor.

dheary · December 4, 2013

Proper way to shoot a hockey game
A few pointers for shooting a hockey game. Use center point for focusing so the camera does not get mathematically confused by using 39 or 51 points. Your "ISO" should be on "AUTO SENSITIVITY", starting at 400 to 6400 [it will fluctuate for you ]. Also one should use "HIGH NR" and the key is panning properly on "AF" [lock on your subject]. Your shutter speed will vary but with a 2.8 70-200 and panning start at 500. You might get away with a step down or might have to go to 640. You DO NOT use "VR" ever on a SP over 500 [turn it off]. This is true for ALL motion shots that are being "TRACKED". Your "WB" should be on "AUTO" always as one shoots on MANUAL for all of the above [M]....increasing your shutter speed is not a problem for the AUTO ISO will increase. The more one pans, the less "BLUR". Do not follow in your eye piece many subjects, stay with one and fire 5-9 shots a second on a high speed card and move on. I shoot anywhere from 500-1000 shots a game with 50 solid keepers. Hope this helps..:)

johng · December 5, 2013

Dheary - welcome to DGRIN.

I do have a question though - how did you manage to make your first post here a response to a FIVE YEAR OLD THREAD? I'm not trying to be mean - I am honestly intrigued how you got past 4 years of sports and hockey posts and landed on this one. I'm always amazed when zombie threads raise up from the ground by someone not one of the participants.

lifeinfocus · December 5, 2013

dheary wrote: »

1.Use center point for focusing so the camera does not get mathematically confused by using 39 or 51 points.

2.Your "WB" should be on "AUTO"

I have shot a few hockey games and did just OK. So, I would like to learn a little more and like to ask about the above two points.

1. Do you mean not to use dynamic AF? I read one article recently about shooting tennis and changing Dynamic to 21 points.

2. WB can be tough in hockey arenas, at least in my limited experience. Do you shoot a grey card and use that for post processing or adjust WB some other way in post processing?

Thanks, Phil

jhefti · December 5, 2013

lifeinfocus wrote: »

I have shot a few hockey games and did just OK. So, I would like to learn a little more and like to ask about the above two points.

1. Do you mean not to use dynamic AF? I read one article recently about shooting tennis and changing Dynamic to 21 points.

2. WB can be tough in hockey arenas, at least in my limited experience. Do you shoot a grey card and use that for post processing or adjust WB some other way in post processing?

Thanks, Phil

The only hockey I shoot is professional games (San Jose Sharks), where the lighting is actually pretty good for stadium lights. It's fairly bright and very even; and of course no cycling.

I shoot manual and meter off the players to get the correct exposure. Sure, the ice may get blown out a little, but would you rather have the players exposed well, or the ice? I've never found any semi-auto mode to work well, as this lets the camera choose the exposure. In a highly contrasty environment like a sports stadium--bright ice, moderate lighting on the players, and very dark fan sections-- the exposures vary all over the place. It's an editorial nightmare! I'll deal with some small spatial variability anyday over what the camera thinks is the proper exposure.

I just use a single AF point that is selectable using the multi-controller (that joy stick on the backs of Canon cameras). Sometimes I keep it on the center AF point; other times I bump it so that it's on the player's face. Just depends. The reason you shouldn't let the camera decide what AF point to use is that, again with a contrasty environment with lots of potential subjects, it'll often choose the wrong place to focus.

Lastly, if you're shooting in a poorly lit place with cycling lights, you're kinda screwed. I shoot our high school basketball games at a horrible gym: ISO 6400 and severe cycling that drastically alters both intensity and WB. I end up editing every single shot and they still don't look that good. No amount of custom WB will work for even a minority of the shots. I've never found a work-around for this problem.

Regarding WB, I just shoot RAW and deal with the WB in the post, always by eye. YMMV. I know people the use a grey card, but I've found it just as effective to do it by eye and make sure the skin tones are decent.

pipster · December 5, 2013

jhefti wrote: »

Lastly, if you're shooting in a poorly lit place with cycling lights, you're kinda screwed. I shoot our high school basketball games at a horrible gym: ISO 6400 and severe cycling that drastically alters both intensity and WB. I end up editing every single shot and they still don't look that good. No amount of custom WB will work for even a minority of the shots. I've never found a work-around for this problem.

There is a workaround for cycling lights and or a poorly lit arena/gym. Use strobes or off camera flashes.

jhefti · December 6, 2013

pipster wrote: »

There is a workaround for cycling lights and or a poorly lit arena/gym. Use strobes or off camera flashes.

Ah yes, of course. I'm not a big fan of external lighting, but this is probably the only way to deal with this issue.

johng · December 9, 2013

I have to say, the "cycling lights" issue is a bit overblown so to speak. I've shot in gyms with cycling lights. The issue isn't that - since the light fields typically overlap and an "average" wb temperature works well. In such gyms/arenas you'll only run into a problem at the end if there are no lights with overlapping fields (for example, in a HS gym the basketball and volleyball courts have overlapping light fields. But, the same gym hosting a wrestling tournament may have a mat all the way against the wall where you really don't get the overlap.

The only gym I ever shot in where this wasn't the case was a gymnastics gym where the lights were crazy far apart.

Otherwise, taking a custom WB shot with 1/60 shutter speed produced perfectly useable shots in gyms with cycling lights. not perfect mind you but extremely useable. Yes, you'll see color shifts on the walls or stands behind the action where the lights don't overlap but on the court, not an issue. But the key, to me, is that 1/60 shutter speed for average color temperature on the custom WB shot.

I will also say - any place using spotlights will be problematic (an MMA fight I shot was a prime example).

jhefti · December 9, 2013

johng is right that there are a lot of variations with cycling lights. Some are merely annoying; others essentially prohibitive of getting decent shots. It all depends. Our kids' high school gym is the latter. The exposure will vary by two stops, and the colors will go from a strong yellow shift to a deep red hue. It's the worst I've even seen, anywhere. (For those who live in San Francisco, it's Kezar Gymnasium.)

help! shooting hockey game, I need some advice

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