Demb vs LumiQuest - Confused on what to get

MDalby · March 8, 2009

I need to get a reflector/diffuser for senior photos outdoors and also work for indoor situations.

I was leaning toward the DFD Pro that has a Big Flip-it and hte diffuser.

http://www.dembflashproducts.com/diffuser/

I am also considering the LumiQuest ProMax Bounce Flash System

http://www.adorama.com/LQPM.html

I don't think I can go wrong with either one.

Any preferences?

Thanks,

MD

jeffreaux2 · March 9, 2009

Theres really nothing to be gained with using either of these outdoors in daylight. For indoors, I favor the Gary Fong Lightsphere "cloud" diffuser. I like the 360 degree "barebulb" feel that it adds to the photographs.

ziggy53 · March 9, 2009

MDalby wrote:

I need to get a reflector/diffuser for senior photos outdoors and also work for indoor situations.

I was leaning toward the DFD Pro that has a Big Flip-it and hte diffuser.

http://www.dembflashproducts.com/diffuser/

I am also considering the LumiQuest ProMax Bounce Flash System

http://www.adorama.com/LQPM.html

I don't think I can go wrong with either one.

Any preferences?

Thanks,

MD

Both will get you some benefit but the Demb is more adaptable in that it can be "feathered" via the hinge. I wound up getting the original FlipIt for that reason. The FlipIt is also very compact and instantly fits about any compact flash in my kit.

By far, my most used flash modifier is a DIY "scoop" type and it is indeed usable both indoors and outdoors. It has the property of both diffusing and lifting the light and it is also pretty efficient in how it uses the light from the flash. I generally only use a single set of rechargeable batteries for an entire event, spread between 2 flashes (each with its own battery set).

http://www.fototime.com/inv/908195739C4C0D3

Even very close it is sweet light:

Candid Arts · March 9, 2009

So I was suggested to use the LumiQuest Softbox by another forum member. Is this not a good choice? *On a Budget*

ziggy53 · March 9, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

So I was suggested to use the LumiQuest Softbox by another forum member. Is this not a good choice? *On a Budget*

It's an OK choice, but not my first recommendation by any means. It only works with the flash pointed forwards. This does not give you any extra lift or separation from the lens versus the flash alone.

The original version does not yield that large an emitting area to provide much benefit at even moderate distances to the subject. The newer SoftBox III is much larger but not intended for on-camera use.

The scoop device I linked to above, and what I use and recommend, gives very good results by yielding a large emitting area, lifting the light considerably off the lens, allows configuring to a portrait orientation (even without a flash bracket), quickly assembles and disassembles to fold flat and costs around $3USD per copy.

Candid Arts · March 9, 2009

ziggy53 wrote:

It's an OK choice, but not my first recommendation by any means. It only works with the flash pointed forwards. This does not give you any extra lift or separation from the lens versus the flash alone.

The original version does not yield that large an emitting area to provide much benefit at even moderate distances to the subject. The newer SoftBox III is much larger but not intended for on-camera use.

The scoop device I linked to above, and what I use and recommend, gives very good results by yielding a large emitting area, lifting the light considerably off the lens, allows configuring to a portrait orientation (even without a flash bracket), quickly assembles and disassembles to fold flat and costs around $3USD per copy.

Well if that is a better option, and $3 roughly versus $40... It just looks rather big and bulky when mounted. This is the one I'm looking at getting, so you're saying that it's not intended for use on camera (or mounted on a flash bracket)?

allows configuring to a portrait orientation (even without a flash bracket)

Not sure I understand how this works.

ziggy53 · March 9, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

Well if that is a better option, and $3 roughly versus $40... It just looks rather big and bulky when mounted. This is the one I'm looking at getting, so you're saying that it's not intended for use on camera (or mounted on a flash bracket)?

When a flash is mounted on the hot shoe and pointed forward, it has relatively little lift/separation from the lens. Modifiers that mount so that the flash points up have much better seperation from the lens and the higher the light, the more natural the shadows and light modeling will seem.

Flash modifiers tend to have 2 broad classes, those that provide support and fill, like the traditional bounce card and FlipIt in the normal configuration, and those that provide dominant light and diffusion, usually also providing a larger emitting surface area.

While the soft box device you are looking at provides diffusion and a little larger area, it lacks the flexibility of the scoop device as well as the size and separation from the lens. The soft box will help but the scoop is much, much superior.

It is very beneficial to have a larger emitting area as that provides much softer shadows and allows some effect even at a distance. As for the scoop being "big and bulky" yes, it is relatively large but does not feel bulky at all. It is so lightweight that the balance of the system is hardly affected. Windy conditions will affect it, but in wind that's the least of your problems.

Candid Arts wrote:

Not sure I understand how this works.

Landscape configuration:

Portrait configuration:

While the portrait configuration is hardly ideal, it is serviceable and keeps the light above the lens for normal looking shadows. I normally use mine with a flash bracket and that allows positioning directly above the lens, but if I use an assistant I'll either give them an attached external flash with the scoop attached like this, or I'll use the FlipIt for them.

Note that the scoop can also be "opened up" at the top to provide more ceiling spill if you want that effect.

takinmore · March 9, 2009

awesome
Ziggy, I hope I am not offending any protocols here but was reading through this and saw your explanation of the flash diffuser.

It's excellent and with the pictures as clear as a bell to me.

I just wanted to say Thanks! Your explanation inspires. Can't wait to build one myself and try it out as I have not done much flash work with my SB800 yet.

thanks again!

ziggy53 · March 9, 2009

takinmore wrote:

Ziggy, I hope I am not offending any protocols here but was reading through this and saw your explanation of the flash diffuser.

It's excellent and with the pictures as clear as a bell to me.

I just wanted to say Thanks! Your explanation inspires. Can't wait to build one myself and try it out as I have not done much flash work with my SB800 yet.

thanks again!

Good luck and good shooting.

Candid Arts · March 9, 2009

ziggy53 wrote:

When a flash is mounted on the hot shoe and pointed forward, it has relatively little lift/separation from the lens. Modifiers that mount so that the flash points up have much better seperation from the lens and the higher the light, the more natural the shadows and light modeling will seem.

Flash modifiers tend to have 2 broad classes, those that provide support and fill, like the traditional bounce card and FlipIt in the normal configuration, and those that provide dominant light and diffusion, usually also providing a larger emitting surface area.

While the soft box device you are looking at provides diffusion and a little larger area, it lacks the flexibility of the scoop device as well as the size and separation from the lens. The soft box will help but the scoop is much, much superior.

It is very beneficial to have a larger emitting area as that provides much softer shadows and allows some effect even at a distance. As for the scoop being "big and bulky" yes, it is relatively large but does not feel bulky at all. It is so lightweight that the balance of the system is hardly affected. Windy conditions will affect it, but in wind that's the least of your problems.

Landscape configuration:

Portrait configuration:

While the portrait configuration is hardly ideal, it is serviceable and keeps the light above the lens for normal looking shadows. I normally use mine with a flash bracket and that allows positioning directly above the lens, but if I use an assistant I'll either give them an attached external flash with the scoop attached like this, or I'll use the FlipIt for them.

Note that the scoop can also be "opened up" at the top to provide more ceiling spill if you want that effect.

Excellent. Thank you. I thought you were actually re-configuring the bounce card on the flash. Images helped clear that up.

Candid Arts · March 9, 2009

Ok. So I went to my local camera shop to take a look at some of these products first hand. The guy I talked to highly recommended the Gary Fong Lightsphere. What do you guys think about this versus a softbox or bounce card? Best choice to do is the bounce card you think?

Art Scott · March 9, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

Ok. So I went to my local camera shop to take a look at some of these products first hand. The guy I talked to highly recommended the Gary Fong Lightsphere. What do you guys think about this versus a softbox or bounce card? Best choice to do is the bounce card you think?

Some on here like them and that fireakin' huge whale tail...personally I hate them....I have a fong copy.....made every bit as well as GF own product.......it works well but takes up a ton of room in my camera pack.....

I do not like the light loss associated with bounce cards ..... softboxes are contained and yes directional sort of......but 99.9% of the venues i have shot in the ceilings are much too tall for bouncing anyway.....so I use a softbox.....out doors where are you gonna bounce from the leaves on a tree.....gives a cool light green effect to everything...........

They all do the job if one learns to use them.....I like and recommend the Lumiquest and with it on a flsh bracket the light is lifted above the lens......when a camera is rotated to portrait orientation there is a ton of stress and I might add unnecessary stress, to that plastic shoe on a shoe mount flash and in a wedding or location shoot that can spell diaster in a split second........

In the end it is a matter of trying out various ones and see what you like for your shooting style.........

ziggy53 · March 9, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

Ok. So I went to my local camera shop to take a look at some of these products first hand. The guy I talked to highly recommended the Gary Fong Lightsphere. What do you guys think about this versus a softbox or bounce card? Best choice to do is the bounce card you think?

The Light Sphere products do a pretty good job at what they do, but they are relatively expensive and work best in very particular situations. They tend to be wasteful of power and almost worthless outdoors. (Yes, you can use the diffusion dome, but you have to flip the flash forward and the light loss is dramatic and the size of the dome is not that big.) The Light Sphere is also fairly heavy and does not collapse, making it somewhat more difficult to position the flash head and have it stay and bulky to transport/store.

Again, the scoop is cheap to make, easy to make, does a great job in more situations than the Light Sphere and is easily reconfigured and adapted to multiple models of speed lights. It has better separation of light and lens and is pretty easy on batteries.

Since the scoop modifier is a DIY you won't find any clever marketing but here are some more images:

LifeandLens · March 9, 2009

Wow, this is a really great tool!
Hey Grinners -

I went out this afternoon, after seeing this post, and bought the materials. I just finished building this diffuser and it works great.

Walmart... the Foamies sheets are in the kids craft area near the school/business supplies (I first checked the sewing/craft section but could not find the Foamies). They were $.33 each.

Then the kitchen cutting board area had an excellent "stiffening" material called "3 pack Flexible Cutting Mats". The three pack of 12x15 inch mats were $2.97.

Last the velcro. I splurged and bought the 6 foot pack of both hook and felt. $6.44. So I am in to this project about $13 and have enough materials to make a total of three diffusers (with velcro to spare).

So here is a mug shot of me, Nikon D700, 24-70mm f/2.8, SB-900 w new diffuser, flash pointed straight up. Camera in manual mode, 1/250, f/2.8, flash at i-TTL. The shutter speed was set three stops below ambient. I don't look happy in the photo but I am because I love this new diffuser!

- Tom

Scott_Quier · March 10, 2009

Jut to add weight to Ziggy's comments (like he needs my help:D) ... Here are a couple of shots using the light scoop. These were outdoors, nothing overhead and no wall to bounce from. ALL the light seen here is from a single Canon 580EX on camera bracket with a light scoop attached. I think it did a marvelous job.

That goofy bump in her gown is her son playing under the first layer :lol

Leading Mom around on her leash

Candid Arts · March 10, 2009

How effective do you think the bounce card that is built in to my 580 EX II is compared to the huge bounce card you nice guys are posting example pictures of? Obviously not a cost issue as it should cost about $5 to make the one you guys are sampling, but just in shear size and, "look at me and my huge bounce card sticking off of my already tall flash mounted to bracket to giant camera!"

Scott_Quier · March 10, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

How effective do you think the bounce card that is built in to my 580 EX II is compared to the huge bounce card you nice guys are posting example pictures of? Obviously not a cost issue as it should cost about $5 to make the one you guys are sampling, but just in shear size and, "look at me and my huge bounce card sticking off of my already tall flash mounted to bracket to giant camera!"

It pretty much like comparing a Yugo to a Porsche.

Hmmmmm .... how can I say this gently .....

Uuuhhh .... stop worrying about what your clients are thinking. If you act like you know what you are doing, they will have confidence in you. If necessary (I've not encountered an instance where I needed to do this - but I do it anyway) give them a glance at your camera LCD once in a while to tide them over. Then, when you deliver the product it's all cool.

The only down-side of the larger diffuser is it kind of hinders any attempt at being a ninja photog - just not going to happen:D

ziggy53 · March 10, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

How effective do you think the bounce card that is built in to my 580 EX II is compared to the huge bounce card you nice guys are posting example pictures of? Obviously not a cost issue as it should cost about $5 to make the one you guys are sampling, but just in shear size and, "look at me and my huge bounce card sticking off of my already tall flash mounted to bracket to giant camera!"

A scoop modifier is not a bounce card. A bounce card relies on a ceiling or wall to provide the primary illumination. The "bounce card" recycles some of the flash spill which would be lost to the back and reflects it forward.

A scoop is used as a primary illumination and doesn't depend upon a white or light colored ceiling or wall to function. It also allows tilting the camera/flash while keeping the illumination at a fairly correct height above the subject. If a ceiling is available some of the forward spill from the flash will help fill the room and it acts to "feather" the light.

Note in the above image how the light reaches far into the room without bleaching the foreground. This is a very desireable quality that most modifiers do not provide. Also notice how the shadow drops nicely behind the objects even in the background.

Like Scott said, don't worry about being conspicuous. Once you get shooting everybody will know that you mean business and they will soon forget all about the modifier.

Candid Arts · March 10, 2009

Scott_Quier wrote:

It pretty much like comparing a Yugo to a Porsche.

Hmmmmm .... how can I say this gently ..... Uuuhhh .... stop worrying about what your clients are thinking. If you act like you know what you are doing, they will have confidence in you. If necessary (I've not encountered an instance where I needed to do this - but I do it anyway) give them a glance at your camera LCD once in a while to tide them over. Then, when you deliver the product it's all cool.

The only down-side of the larger diffuser is it kind of hinders any attempt at being a ninja photog - just not going to happen:D

Hahaha! But I wanna be a ninja photographer!!! Just kidding...

Well this sounds like the way to go. I will be buying the products to make the scoop modifier very soon. Thanks for everyone's help and sample images!

takinmore · March 10, 2009

Ziggy, may I ask one more thing of you please? I bought the materials today for the scoop modifier but now am not entirely sure which way it best fits on to the flash.

I see on some sites it is on in normal position, flash facing front but see on your pictures you have it on the flash sideways (flash points away from front). Is there a difference between these two setups? If so, is one better than the other or a preference of some kind?

Many thanks in advance for any help

ziggy53 · March 10, 2009

takinmore wrote:

Ziggy, may I ask one more thing of you please? I bought the materials today for the scoop modifier but now am not entirely sure which way it best fits on to the flash.

I see on some sites it is on in normal position, flash facing front but see on your pictures you have it on the flash sideways (flash points away from front). Is there a difference between these two setups? If so, is one better than the other or a preference of some kind?

Many thanks in advance for any help

If you attach the modifier as I did in the photos you will be able to switch to portrait mode. If you leave the flash head in the "normal" but straight up position you will not be able to switch to portrait mode without removing the modifier, rotating the head, re-attaching the modifier and folding the head.

You'll know when you try it which way is best.

(BTW I will sometimes use the modifier with the head in the original forward configuration if I know I won't be needing the portrait orientation. It's great to have options.)

Candid Arts · March 10, 2009

ziggy53 wrote:

If you attach the modifier as I did in the photos you will be able to switch to portrait mode. If you leave the flash head in the "normal" but straight up position you will not be able to switch to portrait mode without removing the modifier, rotating the head, re-attaching the modifier and folding the head.

You'll know when you try it which way is best.

(BTW I will sometimes use the modifier with the head in the original forward configuration if I know I won't be needing the portrait orientation. It's great to have options.)

Well in response to your response and original pictures, what I you're using a flash bracket? Could you then mount it in the "normal" position?

ziggy53 · March 10, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

Well in response to your response and original pictures, what I you're using a flash bracket? Could you then mount it in the "normal" position?

With the proper flash bracket and off-camera cord, yes, you would be able to rotate either the camera or the flash and keep the flash and modifier on top, and not have to adjust the flash head or modifier. A flash bracket is a very handy and valuable device, but you should also know how to use the modifier and flash without a bracket, just in case.

Candid Arts · March 10, 2009

ziggy53 wrote:

With the proper flash bracket and off-camera cord, yes, you would be able to rotate either the camera or the flash and keep the flash and modifier on top, and not have to adjust the flash head or modifier. A flash bracket is a very handy and valuable device, but you should also know how to use the modifier and flash without a bracket, just in case.

Good call. Thanks for all the great info.

Scott_Quier · March 11, 2009

ziggy53 wrote:

With the proper flash bracket and off-camera cord, yes, you would be able to rotate either the camera or the flash and keep the flash and modifier on top, and not have to adjust the flash head or modifier. A flash bracket is a very handy and valuable device, but you should also know how to use the modifier and flash without a bracket, just in case.

I can't stress this enough!! A photographer needs to know how his/her equipement works in more than one "standard" configuration. Using the example of the BBC/Lightscoop. What if you don't have a bracket or it broke or ..... and you just HAVE to get a shot in portrait orientation. Well, there are at least 2 options that come to mind (with out reading ahead, can you come up with two options?:shrug):

Point the flash head vertically. Rotate head 90 degrees from "normal". Attach the BBC. Now, when you rotate the camera to portrait orientation, you just need to re-adjust the orientation of the flash head to re-point it at your primary bounce target (usually the ceiling).
Ooooppppps, the swivel joint on your flash has failed!!! Now what do you do? Answer: Point that flash head up, keep the camera in "landscape" orientation and keep on shooting. Crop the photo to proper/required size ratio in post. Not optimal and you will be tossing almost 1/2 the data to do this but, with current camera, it'll stand up to enlargement to at least 8x10. Do you remember enlarging a 6MP image to 16x20 not so long ago?

I gently suggest the photographer should know at least 2 ways to use each piece of equipment - just in case.

MDalby · March 11, 2009

Will on flash gels work with the scoop?

Scott_Quier · March 11, 2009

MDalby wrote:

Will on flash gels work with the scoop?

Sure - why wouldn't they. You apply the gel (I usually just use a strip of clear celephane tape) and then mount the scoop or BBC. Since the scoop/BBC is white - no (or little) additional color cast issues.

takinmore · March 11, 2009

thanks Ziggy, again - great information. Will be trying it out soon.

Scott, you are right of course - first though I'll learn how to do it at least one way then add to that as I practise. Good advice.

Demb vs LumiQuest - Confused on what to get

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