SM+
-Customer service(++++++++++++++)
-Customization possibilities

SM-
-Planned for US only x 1000000000
(labs, currencies+ payment option, scandinavian alphabet not supported..and so on..)
-many features are promised for loooooong time ago
-service breaks

I wish to stay...let see..

SM+
-Relatively quick loading
-Customization possibilities but requires a Masters in CSS

SM-
-Coming Soon
-Coming Soon Sometime
-Coming Soon Sometime Year
-Coming Soon As We Get Around To It
-Coming Sooner If We Had More Programming Help
-We don't allow you to collect taxes but are talking to our Tax Guy

I wish to stay...but lets see....maybe my ability to sale and stay in
good graces with my states taxing authority takes me to Ahhh Zennn but keeps my family and friends stuff here....lets see.

Originally Posted by Johnnycb -Customization possibilities but requires a Masters in CSS

Or, use Easy Customizer (nobody else has this AFAIK)... or for more advanced stuff, post questions on Dgrin, get amazing help, and copy, paste away. You don't need a masters in CSS & HTML you just need to be able to use EZC or our Forum

Alexa has some interesting statistics:



Traffic from search engines to Zenfolio is pretty low, but is slowly getting better.
Traffic from search engines to Smugmug is better, but is slowly getting worse.

Check it out at Alexa.com:
Zenfolio stats on Alexa
Smugmug stats on Alexa

The real question is: Can you trust statistics?

Personally, I think Alexa is great at creating press releases for Alexa, but little else. That data is created by users downloading the Alexa toolbar specifically to send data to Alexa. So you are looking at a limited set of users who use the toolbar, and then connect to either zenfolio or smugmug. Seems pretty narrow to me, or would require many 10s of millions of users to be anywhere near accurate.

On the other hand Quantcast does offer a much more granular approach, and does not rely on users and toolbars, but looks at ISP data. However, as they likely should, smugmug blocks that Quantcast data.

Originally Posted by cmason On the other hand Quantcast does offer a much more granular approach, and does not rely on users and toolbars, but looks at ISP data.

All the major ad networks (professionals) look at Quantcast. Alexa is a like a 'consumer' version of traffic rankings. I didn't know this until I went to some IAB webinars on advertising.

Originally Posted by SamirD All the major ad networks (professionals) look at Quantcast. Alexa is a like a 'consumer' version of traffic rankings. I didn't know this until I went to some IAB webinars on advertising.

Yeah, Quantcast ftw.

We have a lot of respect for Zenfolio (and Shutterfly, Pictage, Flickr, Vimeo, etc...) who keep us on our toes.

The Alexa chart seems to show an increase of 9% for us and 10% for them over 3 months. I don't know how believable it was that we tripled in a week, so I think smoothing it over a longer period of time makes sense.

Our traffic is so much higher than their's that 9% of a very large base is a very large increase compared to 10% of a small base. But the installed base of the Alexa toolbar, and the amount it's obfuscated by not counting custom domains, which is so large a part of our business, makes me not very confident that we're seeing something useful here.

The BIG Plus for those not US based is that Zenfolio has Foreign currency support, something that Smugmug is severely dragging its feet with and no roadmap of it being provided in the near future.

You can work around with cludgy CSS paypal modifications but its a PITA and requires self fullfillment.

Its a feature that may sway me to jump ship

Originally Posted by Squeezer no roadmap of it being provided in the near future.

Smug doesn't give us road maps.

Its a feature that may sway me to jump ship

If the lack of foreign currency support is hurting your business, you should. Don't stick around because they're nice; being nice doesn't earn you money.

not sure if andy is watching this thread still or not...I'm just curious if maybe there's a way to partially integrate a paypal cart for those of us that are dealing in other currencies. I saw the thread on adding one in...but it would be nice if I could have something included and still have the digital downloads self fulfill but allow me to make the prints myself....

Alright, so maybe that's two things in one...lol.

and if the fees were lowered to be more in line with zen all the better, I'm sorry, but for my $150 a year I wouldn't have expected to pay 15% of everything I sell as well...

Originally Posted by StevenSzabo not sure if andy is watching this thread still or not...I'm just curious if maybe there's a way to partially integrate a paypal cart for those of us that are dealing in other currencies. I saw the thread on adding one in...but it would be nice if I could have something included and still have the digital downloads self fulfill but allow me to make the prints myself.... Alright, so maybe that's two things in one...lol. and if the fees were lowered to be more in line with zen all the better, I'm sorry, but for my $150 a year I wouldn't have expected to pay 15% of everything I sell as well...

Lots of folks have added paypal or google checkout- it's rather easy. Just post in the customizing forum and let the helpers help.

Originally Posted by Andy Lots of folks have added paypal or google checkout- it's rather easy. Just post in the customizing forum and let the helpers help.

yes, but then we lose the self fulfilling(sp?) on digital downloads, or am I wrong? I'm just trying to come up with a good way to merge the two...sell my prints through paypal, but still offer the digital download option. But the idea that a customer might want prints and a download would mean entering their credit card info twice and people are nervous enough about entering their visa number online once as it is. Am I making any sense?

PS. How do I set it so that I can do the prints myself instead of going out to one of the two labs?

I am late to the party, and haven't read the last 6 pages, but I did just make the jump from Zenfolio to Smugmug. I was ready to do it a year ago, but I had just paid them, and it didn't make sense for me financially. I left Zenfolio because of the overwhelming arrogance they have exhibited in developing their product roadmap and the apparent lack of willingness to listen to their customers. Digital downloads, which are such a no-brainer these days, took them forever to implement. I don't see them being any more on the cutting edge than anyone else, and for me personally, the way they interact with the customer base was unacceptable.

On the other hand, Smugmug has such a vibrant user community, as well as an enthusiastic support staff, that I feel right at home. Doesn't mean I won't be critical (2+ years to develop coupons, which ZF already has? Come on.), but just as with other vendor communities I am involved in (ExactTarget), I hope that my criticisms will be taken constructively and not just the rantings of an unhappy customer. Of course, that puts the onus on me to construct my criticisms in an intelligent way.

I also like the fact that they have started the Smugs. I attended the first one here in Denver last week, and I think that this is going to be a great opportunity for me to learn more about working the business side of photography (if we can have speakers from the landscape/ stock side of the world sometimes, that would be great Jeff).

Simply put, I do business with companies that value me as a customer, along with my input. I didn't get that feeling from ZF, but I have so far with SM. Your mileage may vary, but this is where I plan to stay.

Originally Posted by ColoradoSkier Simply put, I do business with companies that value me as a customer, along with my input. I didn't get that feeling from ZF, but I have so far with SM. Your mileage may vary, but this is where I plan to stay.

Good to hear a balanced point of view from someone who's been on both sides.

I have also recently switched from Zen to Smug, and here are some of my thoughts. I switched for several reasons, with customization being high on the list. I am not a css guy, so I used the easy customization, and in a few cases I asked in the support forums and got what I needed. As far as promises, promises, it's reaqlly no better over there. Page customization has been promised for a long time and you always get the canned "we're working on it", or "coming soon", so that kinda ends up as a wash. One big thing for me on Zen was that it took forever for pages to load. I had several potential customers say they gave up waiting for the thumbs or larger images to show up on screen. Finally, traffic from search engines can't be compared. I see tons more hits in a month on analytics than I did in a year on Zen. Are we perfect here at Smug? No, but I'm much more satisfied.
I should now insert a disclaimer: These are only my personal thoughts and I'm sure some will diagree. Had to put in my 2 cents though.

After reading this whole thread, I'm pretty sure I've made my mind up t join SM. Even without any Telephone support (who does that anymore..lol), they do a good job with me so far.
I am an IT guy and have had my share of crappy support. SM support and company people seem to be doing a good job. I'm with SM for now.

Thanks

I think we need both SM & Zen. Competition benefits everyone, and choice means more people are satisfied, so both services remain healthy.

I am still a beginner photographer, and my focus is on getting to a level of quality and attractiveness in my photos where I can at some point realistically offer them for sale. My focus is not on selling right now.

I had a pro account with SM, and I now have a premium account with Zen. There have been order of magnitude changes at Zen in recent months, especially in website customisation and search engine visibility. I find the organisation system at Zen more straightforward and easily usable than at SM, and Zen's new customisation tools are an unbelievable breeze to use and allow the creation of a look which is truly personal and unique, and with a premium account no branding of the host service at all. The quality of image display on Zen is unsurpassed, and now with slideshow on homepage, with sound, full page embedded slideshow. Automatically scaled image size to the max of viewer screen size.

On the other hand, I think SM has better sales statistics, and for pros that is pretty much the bottom line, of course, but it could be just a fact of history that up to now more successful pros have been with SM than Zen. However SM's assertive and upbeat personality must help sales. Customer service at both SM & Zen are on a par in my experience. Both communities are very active, supportive and friendly. Zen is perhaps a little more even-tempered, there is less hype and attitude. Help documentation is better at SM.

I am indebted to both SM and Zen for helping me to grow in my photography. I love the association I have with both. I have an open mind about the future. In the end, a decision to use one or the other service is a very personal one and is not necessarily a judgement of one over the other. I'm thankful that both exist!

Neil

Earlier this year I completed a new trial on different sites. SM is still the best choice for me. SM added a lot of improvements and features in the year after my last post in this thread. The ability to customize so many factors is still better than the other sites I tried. There are some things that I still like better about Zen, like their lower annual fee, lower % fee on sales that is tiered by product type and their folder system. However, for my site SM still wins. I like the way my site looks on SM. I like the continued improvements to the SM product. I love this forum and all of the amazing help/service from SM and other users. As a consumer, I will continue to see what is available to me, but for now SM still wins for my site. http://www.markwweston.com/

Well I let my Zenfolio subscription lapse today so I guess I'm all in on SmugMug now! It only took me five years to decide...



Malte

Originally Posted by Andy Lots of folks have added paypal or google checkout- it's rather easy. Just post in the customizing forum and let the helpers help.

But you'll have to print your own prints?

Doesn't zenfolio have the paypal option &
they print?

I personally think without Paypal you
loose sales. People trust PayPal over a random
site where they have to submit their CC info.

My 2 cents.