I was wondering if anyone had any expeirence with firing a second shooter, and how you did it.

I recently hired a second shooter for my August 21st wedding, as my regular second shooter had a personal family weddng that day.

When I was looking for a seocnd shooter, I specifically said a second shooter.
So we are talking the other night and I told her, well your responsiblities are going to be keep us on time, be the go for if need be but probally not neccessary, help with posing and obviously a second shooter.
As a second shooter I may need you to finish the guys getting ready, if I am still doing the girls, and also I want you in back of the church when the girls are waiting to walk down, and the dad and bride are waiting to come down while I am in front of church getting the groom, groomsmen, everyone walking down etc.
Then obviously you can shoot what you want, just get angles that I am not getting etc.
She told me -- I dont think that you should rely on me to get those shots.
I think -- That yes i should, thats why I hired you as a seond shooter, if I just wanted an assistant I wouldve asked just for an assistant, kwim?
Am I being unresonable?

How would you handle the situation?

Ashley

"You're fired."

I second the "You're fired."

Or in different terms, as she said, "I dont think that you should rely on me to get those shots."

"That is why I (you) hire a 2nd shooter. So, thanks for your time."

Be as pleasant as possible. Just tell her that you are sorry that some how there must have been a misunderstanding and that you will have to look for someone who can be counted on to get those shots.

Hopefully you didn't hire a friend...which makes it much harder to fire them.

Yea, I want to be nice about it. (Not that being fired is nice..but you know..) She wasnt a friend but we know a lot of the same people, even though she lives two hours away from me. Her portfolio is good, thats what dumbfounds me. I even said when I put out the ad that I want a second shooter, not an assistant. Some people.

This is what I am thinking of writing to her:

Hi _______________ ,
I hope that this email finds you well.
I am emailing to follow up per our conversation last Thursday night.
I just want to reiterate what my expectations are as my second shooter/associate photographer.
As my second shooter this is what I need to do for the day:
1. Photograph the guys. You don’t need to spend a lot of time by them, but just get putting on cufflinks (or acting like it), fixing ties, putting on jackets, (getting ready type stuff) and guys being guys.
2. Get the details that I may not be able to get. (Flowers, rings, ring bearer picking his nose, etc).
3. When I am up in front of church photographing the groom, groomsmen, pastor, ushers, groom seating parents/grandparents, bridesmaids walking down, flower girl walking down, and ring bearer walking down….. I need you in the back of the church photographing the bridesmaids before they walk down the aisle, as well as the bride and father before they walk down. (Usually they exchange a kiss on the cheek, hug, tears,etc)
4. I need you to help with positing with groups. Making sure the brides dress is ok, ties are straight etc.
5. Capture candid’s while I am photographing. Usually when I have my seconds capturing candid’s they are off to the side getting a different perspective, or also capturing the misc family members behind me that are photographing.
6. Speaking of family members --- if people are photographing the same time I am, let them know they will get a turn as soon as I am done. We will count to 123 and then they get one chance so we can keep time moving.
7. Keep us on time. I will have a checklist, and a time line.
8. Keep an eye on details: veil, dress, flower girl showing her belly button.
* I will be watching all of the above listed as well, but I hire an additional person to be second shooter and second set of eyes.
I obviously also expect the following:
1. Great personality, and outgoing.
2. Great photographic eye.
3. Camera skills. Knowing what settings to use in low light situations, and being able to handle high ISO’s with low shutter speeds.
4. Nice dress, no sloppy attire please. (Not saying you are a sloppy person, I just tell this to all my second shooters.)
If for some reason you feel you are unable to fulfill these duties please let me know ASAP. Not only does your reputation stand for making outstanding portraits (as you are hired to do as a second shooter), my reputation stands as well.
One statement that stands out to me from when we talked Thursday night is that, you stated that I shouldn’t rely on you to get those shots. Well, quite honestly that’s why I hired a second shooter, because I cant be in two places at once. Don’t take this I am upset with you or anything, but I do want to make sure you feel confident in what I need you to do and aren’t trying to make a quick $150.

I don't think you should worry about having to be nice as it seems to me like your second is already trying to tell you she isn't up to the task. If she doesn't think you should count on her, then you simply tell her that you need someone that you can count on and that it is in your best interest to find someone else.

PS - where in WI are you located? I'm available on the 21st if you need another second.

Ashley,

First off I will put the burden of communication / mis-communication on your shoulders.

When she said you shouldn't rely on her for the shots you were assigning to her you should have stopped there and asked for clarification.

You didn't have to hire her on the spot. You could have said I have two more photographers to speak with and I will get back to you, or if you know this isn't going to work out just tell her strait out. Maybe something like while I love your portfolio I don't think we are a match.

You don't have to be mean or nasty just be upfront and honest.

Based on your equipment list in your profile I would highly recommend you hire a second shooter just for the backup gear if nothing else.

Sam

I think, "You're Fired" works well too. Don't mix words, just simply call, don't email, to tell her you like to clarify exactly what you need in someone at a paid position and second shooter for you. That they've been hired (and are being paid) to do the job and that what she said about not relying on her to get those shots didn't instill confidence in keeping her on as the 2nd as you will need her help in delivering some good shots and because your own reputation relies on the ability to deliver.

If the person is still non-committal, simply say, well, thank you but I think I will be looking for another individual to fill the position. Again, this is YOUR reputation and you should do whatever it takes to insure the level of expertise you expect will be delivered upon to your client.

Maybe something like: "I need a second shooter who will do all of what I've outlined. I understand that you might not be a good fit for the job. Thank you anyway, but I will be looking for another who will fit better."

Honestly, if you are not confident that she will be reliable, find a replacement instantly regardless of what she says.

Start with the last paragraph first.
If she does not get it at that point, no reason to carry on. If she is looking for a way out that is it.
You can then thank her for her interest and wish her good luck.

Originally Posted by Andy "You're fired."

Actually I think it's "YO' FOI'ED"

Okay but seriously.

If you haven't paid them yet, then yes I would give them an ultimatum. I would NOT make it as long as you have though, Ashley.

I would simply say "To be honest, the reason I'm actually paying you for this job, instead of it being an un-paid tag-along, is because I need to *trust* you to cover certain angles etc. If you don't think your shooting ability is right for this job, please let me know because I really gotta have someone who can do these things".

Like Digger said, don't bother to detail all the requirements if you know she's already hesitant in taking the job. Just give her an easy way out, and make it clear that you're being respectful but work is work.

=Matt=

Thank you all for your advice. Like one poster said above, I shoudve said something from the start. I know that, i knew that the minute she said it. im just too good hearted for my own good. I allready had one offer on here from WI to second shoot, is there anyone on here in WI? haha. Im on the look out now.

I think being too good hearted and being a boss is a conflict of interests.

Just be short and to the point with her...she won't really hear much past the "I won't be needing your services" part anyway, so just save yourself time and move on. Polite and firm, that's all that is needed.


Oh, and I'm in WI.

^^ Well, there ya go ^_~

Here's a short, hopefully polite, option:

"Dear so and so,

Thank you for your honesty in informing me that you do not feel up to the assignment required at the wedding of (name groom and bride) on (date). Obviously, it would be irresponsible of me to employ a second shooter who does not feel qualified. Your being open with me allows me a few weeks to find a qualified photographer to hire in your place. Please be advised that I will be doing that, and you may consider our (verbal or written) agreement to work together on August 21 null and void.

Thank you for your interest, and best wishes with your career. Perhaps one day we will cross paths again.

Sincerely,

(your name)

I'm not a wedding photographer, but I am a buttinski.

Don't hire, fire, or do any negotiations through email or letters. Emails and letters are for clarification, fine tuned details, and reference. Everything else should be done in person (best) or by phone.

I'm not a wedding photographer, but I am a buttinski. Don't hire, fire, or do any negotiations through email or letters. Emails and letters are for clarification, fine tuned details, and reference. Everything else should be done in person (best) or by phone.

In person or phone is fine to convey information, if she chooses to go that route, but this is not a romance, it's business. There are a few crazy brides, and there are a few crazy photographers too. For the same reason we insist on contracts and prepayment, most WP's hiring a person they do not know really well put it all in writing, including the "break up", if necessary.

If choosing to use the phone, it would be wise to follow with something in writing for her own protection, as MarkR said.

I didn't mean to imply only using phone/face-to-face. Just that direct, two-way communication allows for quicker feedback and clarifies positions. Absolutely follow up by email for the nitty gritty.

Just wanted to thank everyone again for the advice, I grew a pair (even though I am a woman..but we can pretend for right now), I called her and said " Hi bla bla, this is Ashley. Im calling because unforutnately I will be not needing your services for the wedding on August 21st. I dont feel like our photographic styles match up, and i also got the feeling that you dont feel that you can really live up to my expectations. She just kind of laughed and said yea, your right. I was actually really scared about it. I didnt press any harder, I just said ok, well thank you for your interest, and have a great night. So whew, thats over with.