Man after reading this thread I'm just sticking to what works for me. Luckily I set up my proofs gallery early and just copy those prices to whatever new event/gallery that gets uploaded. Granted it may be some new prices missing from new items offered but its not like my customers are buying the new items anyway. Not time consuming either.

Originally Posted by Sheaf We don't know yet, to be honest. Here's what we do know: We can't build features like lab sales, foreign currency, and certain new products in the best way possible if final prices are set in stone like the old system The vast majority of people using pricelists, if not every single person so far, is using the same or fewer pricing schemes than before Most have dramatically reduced the number, thus dramatically reducing the amount of time they need to spend fiddling with profits and prices One thing we have heard loud and clear is that when they set a value, they absolutely do not want us changing it It's highly unlikely we will lock down final prices instead of profits. There is a possibility of making the final price field editable, but we would have to make it explicitly clear that the chosen value could change, albeit very rarely if priced in the currency of the lab and opted out of lab sales.

If all these reasons are why we cannot set the price directly, smugmug is getting at a crossroad like Netflix.

IF you want to expand into foreign markets, operate labs in those countries. I shouldn't be affected by foreign concerns. My customers are in my state, or the border states.

I know I am using less pricelists because now you cannot tweak prices withing a gallery. If you do, you have to make a new pricelists if you want to change a price.

The biggest no-no is Smugmug now has the ability to change my prices. I am using smumug to help me with my business. Maybe this isn't a big deal to some, but I just do not like the idea of a third party being able to change my prices. That is crappy. I should make the business decision about increasing or decreasing the price.

I am in the process of pushing my business to the next level and I have mentors in my area who are helping. One asked what lab I am using to fulfill orders and I stated smugmug. He went over the numbers. I am leaving money on the table with using smugmug. The big one is the use of print credit. If I get paid upfront and issue a print credit, smugmug calculates it's profit on the retail price of the pictures. Granted, smugmug does save me time so I don't have to take orders or fulfill prints directly, but on a 650 print credit, it cost me around 70 dollars. I could play the system and offer prints at default, but then that devalues my prints. Spread over a few weddings, this adds up quick. I am now starting to realize why the successful photographers, at least in my area, do not use smugmug.

As it is, Smugmug is becoming Netflix. You had customers sign on for the features they liked. Now that smugmug is trying different things, it is messing with the things that made smugmug great. I like the pricelist as a whole, but then you changed the way we set the price. The reason as stated is because smugmug wants to offer more features and products, ie make it easier for smugmug, not me. I want to be able to fulfill orders without having to take a phone call from the customer, order the prints at a lab, and get those prints to the customer without having to send them out myself. I want to set those prices and I don't want anyone else having the ability to set those prices. If I ever have a 2k plus wedding and issue a 2k print credit, I am going to lose a hunk of money if I use smugmug to fulfill that order. I realize smugmug is providing a service and should be paid for handling the transactions, but having an automatic 15% is too much. When a credit coupon is issued, there should be a flat fee associated with it.

And I am going to say being ignored the way I was, the sarcastic tone of a question put to me like I am stupid because I am not jumping through the rooftops at the new features is off putting. I am a loyal customer and will give smugmug a chance. I will say, instead of trying to get more customers, you should maybe get features that a full time pro would like who will have volume orders. A friend of mine was talking about how it would be worth it for him to have someone else take and fulfill his orders. I told him about smugmug and then the price they take for those orders. He had a order of 3k and 2k to fill that day. Getting $750 taken out of his profit didn't appeal to him.

Originally Posted by jonh68 The biggest no-no is Smugmug now has the ability to change my prices.

How can we change your prices? I'm not sure I understand this part. Can you elaborate, because I'd really like to understand this much better - thanks!

Originally Posted by Sheaf We don't know yet, to be honest. Here's what we do know: We can't build features like lab sales, foreign currency, and certain new products in the best way possible if final prices are set in stone like the old system The vast majority of people using pricelists, if not every single person so far, is using the same or fewer pricing schemes than before Most have dramatically reduced the number, thus dramatically reducing the amount of time they need to spend fiddling with profits and prices One thing we have heard loud and clear is that when they set a value, they absolutely do not want us changing it It's highly unlikely we will lock down final prices instead of profits. There is a possibility of making the final price field editable, but we would have to make it explicitly clear that the chosen value could change, albeit very rarely if priced in the currency of the lab and opted out of lab sales.

What is the specific Scenario that would change my price in the US selling from a US Lab?

I like the ease with which I can choose products adding or deleting from the pricelist, thing that was not explained to me in the video with Profit. Profit is Sale Price - cost of product - your 15%, the way my sales history has been shown to me and prices where set before that was new to my thinking and makes it a little bit harder. The constant fiddling with the numbers and rounding makes it just strange adding or subtracting XX cents to the price to get it down so it rounds to the part I want. That was just not fun, I honestly found the % Profit gallery markup tool a huge waste, it was useless on the higher priced products for me still had to fiddle with numbers again and they started of insanely high or out of whack.

There is one thing that has struck me after going through the videos and specifically this thread. At some point Smugmug has decided that it was okay to change the prices of my products after I have set them based on your need with no regard to MY BUSINESS. I don't know any other way to say it, not trying to sound like a jerk but I am not international and I point to the above question.



Thanks,

Originally Posted by Andy How can we change your prices? I'm not sure I understand this part. Can you elaborate, because I'd really like to understand this much better - thanks!

I have asked, and been ignored, if our prices we set would change based on the base price of the product changes. I have not had a response clarifying the issue, but I base my question on this:

We can't build features like lab sales, foreign currency, and certain new products in the best way possible if final prices are set in stone like the old system

It's highly unlikely we will lock down final prices instead of profits. There is a possibility of making the final price field editable, but we would have to make it explicitly clear that the chosen value could change, albeit very rarely if priced in the currency of the lab and opted out of lab sales.

Wait I have two questions...

Is this new pricing scheme something that's going to FORCED on every Pro Smugger? If so then YES I'm concerned just like everybody else because I NEVER use percentage markup to set my prices. I understand Smug's development needs but the minority should never over-rule the majority. If foreign is that big of an issue is there not a way to split the code-development between US and non-US based Pros?

If the new pricing scheme is NOT being forced then is there an option to opt out if people do not like it? If so then why are people complaining and not going back to what they were previously doing. You're telling me that you set EVERY photo price for every new gallery you create?

Originally Posted by Dota Man after reading this thread I'm just sticking to what works for me. Luckily I set up my proofs gallery early and just copy those prices to whatever new event/gallery that gets uploaded. Granted it may be some new prices missing from new items offered but its not like my customers are buying the new items anyway. Not time consuming either.

You should at least create a free trial and play with it some. There are some vocal people on this thread, but the overall feedback so far from all of our sources (help desk, blog, facebook, twitter, etc.) has been mostly positive.

Originally Posted by Dota Wait I have two questions... Is this new pricing scheme something that's going to FORCED on every Pro Smugger? If so then YES I'm concerned just like everybody else because I NEVER use percentage markup to set my prices. I understand Smug's development needs but the minority should never over-rule the majority. If foreign is that big of an issue is there not a way to split the code-development between US and non-US based Pros? If the new pricing scheme is NOT being forced then is there an option to opt out if people do not like it? If so then why are people complaining and not going back to what they were previously doing. You're telling me that you set EVERY photo price for every new gallery you create?

On March 1st, everyone who has not already migrated over will be migrated. We're not going to support both systems going forward.

Please be aware that percentage markup is NOT forced. You can completely override the percentages, they just provide a default starting point.

Originally Posted by jonh68 I know I am using less pricelists because now you cannot tweak prices withing a gallery. If you do, you have to make a new pricelists if you want to change a price.

I'm away for the weekend to celebrate my anniversary, so as much as I want to respond more in-depth, my wife would have my head.

But I think the new system works quite well to modify prices for a specific gallery. Use another pricelist as a starting point, duplicate it, apply that gallery to it, and make your changes.

And I am going to say being ignored the way I was, the sarcastic tone of a question put to me like I am stupid because I am not jumping through the rooftops at the new features is off putting. I am a loyal customer and will give smugmug a chance.

I'm sorry if you felt that way. We have been watching the thread closely, but we didn't have a definitive answer to your question as I explained above.

I will say, instead of trying to get more customers, you should maybe get features that a full time pro would like who will have volume orders.

One of the biggest problems with the old system was that you couldn't get a clear idea of your overall pricing. Volume Pros, the ones who want us to handle the dirty work and have a nice scalable system, were a big factor in driving us to do this feature. And most of the ones we have talked to are very happy about it. They want to set a pricelist for a type of shoot, apply galleries to it as they see fit, and then edit that pricelist if they want to change their profits/prices. By editing just that pricelist, the change can go out to all the galleries applied to it. That was incredibly cumbersome with the old system.

It looks like you had more than 800 galleries using the same exact pricing. If you wanted to raise your prices for those galleries in the old system, there simply wasn't a good method for doing it.

The reason as stated is because smugmug wants to offer more features and products, ie make it easier for smugmug, not me.

I'm not sure how that is just helping us. We build the features for our customers. Foreign currency, lab sales, and increased catalog offerings are all frequently requested features by our own customers.

Okay I read through most of this thread, watched the videos, but I still have questions. (Not like I have sold anything, but hope springs eternal.) Is there a way to have products dynamically assigned? So that I can decide that I do not want to allow selection of prints that need to be cropped. While that could be easy if I only shot with one aspect ration, or never resized images in processing. So is there a way to set all my prices but then limit by smart rules so that I don't have to create a list for images that are at 1:1, 1:4, 2:3, 3:4 ... etc.

The other question is, is there a way to assign the pricelist while creating galleries within LR? I am moving to managing everything in LR and notice that using the online create gallery tool allows for assigning pricelist but LR does not for me.
A follow on to that is there a way to assign a pricelist to the gallery template? So that even if I can't assign the pricelist via LR, if I assign a gallery template via LR it comes through with the pricing.

Originally Posted by BradfordBenn The other question is, is there a way to assign the pricelist while creating galleries within LR? I am moving to managing everything in LR and notice that using the online create gallery tool allows for assigning pricelist but LR does not for me. A follow on to that is there a way to assign a pricelist to the gallery template? So that even if I can't assign the pricelist via LR, if I assign a gallery template via LR it comes through with the pricing.

I'm sorry, neither of these are available right now - wish I had a better answer!

I want to set a price and it be MY PRICE for MY PRODUCT, set in stone until I change it. The rest of the Profit List stuff does not bother me. I am not hard to get along with..

Thanks..

Originally Posted by Sheaf I'm sorry if you felt that way. We have been watching the thread closely, but we didn't have a definitive answer to your question as I explained above.

That would have been enough of an answer. And I also read the response before you edited it. If my question had been answered the FIRST time, I wouldn't have "vented" and you also wouldn't have other customers noticing the lack of response.

One of the biggest problems with the old system was that you couldn't get a clear idea of your overall pricing. Volume Pros, the ones who want us to handle the dirty work and have a nice scalable system, were a big factor in driving us to do this feature. And most of the ones we have talked to are very happy about it. They want to set a pricelist for a type of shoot, apply galleries to it as they see fit, and then edit that pricelist if they want to change their profits/prices. By editing just that pricelist, the change can go out to all the galleries applied to it. That was incredibly cumbersome with the old system.

I feel like Jabba the Hutt in Return of the Jedi and smugmug is trying to use the Jedi Mind Trick on me. I have agreed with you using the pricelist is way better than the old system. I have been a proponent of a pricelist, and I remember Andy telling me over a year ago it was low on the list of priorities after I was telling how it would benefit the end user. I have a problem we can't set the price without jumping through hoops to get the price we want and those prices can be changed by smugmug, not us. I don't have a problem with pricelists.

I brought up volume customers as in you are losing or not going to get any with the 15% take as an automatic deduction from the retail price. For small orders, 15% is great, for orders that get into the $500 or more, money is left on the table for the pro. I gave you suggestion of how to get MORE customers who deal in volume and letting you KNOW how those pros view smugmug's automatic 15% deduction. A handling fee is appropriate, but 15% on even a 1K order? I am just passing on info about the perception smugmug has with some pros I know. I tried to sell one of my friends on how smugmug can handle taking the order and prints, but the 15% was too much when his retail pricing can get into the thousands.

I'm not sure how that is just helping us. We build the features for our customers. Foreign currency, lab sales, and increased catalog offerings are all frequently requested features by our own customers.

I am going to request we be able to set our prices the normal, intuitive way by inputting the retail price.

Hey everyone!

This is my first post to the dgrin forums (I just joined smugmug as a pro as well and have been spending time uploading photos and trying my hand at customization - www.korinekphotography.smugmug.com - still under construction).

I recently upgraded to the new pricing system, whereby you enter a % markup and rounding (which in an of themselves are a good upgrade). However, I can't seem to be able to manually change the cost of a specific item. The reason I'd like to do this is because the way I'm currently pricing is to mark up the little things more than the big things so that people are enticed to buy larger prints, so I don't have a specific percentage across the board. Can you switch back to the old way? Or is there a way to integrate the two? I have lots of ideas on how I would set up a pricing system based on what I'm trying to do! :P

Thanks!

Matt

Hi Matt,

Welcome to Dgrin!

Actually, with pricelists, you can set up a percentage for an individual category to supersede your pricelist percentage over base cost. Check out this screenshot:

As you can see the base profit for the pricelist is set to 400%. On the left, I opened up the standard prints category and priced that at 600% over cost (red arrow). Furthermore, I did enter a manual profit for the 4x6 lustre size at $5. Those manually entered profits are highlighted green. To revert a manually entered profit, just click on the arrow right to the profit column.

If you want to tidy up the retail prices for your customers, use the "round up prices" feature. While this may earn you slightly higher profits, we'll keep displaying your minimum profit in the profit column.

You can read more on pricelists here:
http://help.smugmug.com/customer/por...ll-your-photos
Also check out the videos to give you a quick overview on how pricelists work.

Will there be an option to just set the price you want without having to play around with percent profit, or the amount of profit wanted?

Wow - I am really shocked here - this change to a percentage based price list is a MAJOR FAIL on the part of smugmug and I implore you to change this and allow us to manually and easily change the selling price amount.

A little background on me for perspective. I have been a full-time photography pro for over 20 years. I currently am a fine art photographer selling open and limited edition prints. I am new to smugmug, having just purchased a pro account 3 weeks ago after figuring out the old price system and making it work for me - and now you change it to a terribly thought out percentage price list.

I have been with Photoshelter for years prior to smugmug, even being featured in one of their many popular free ebooks - I was featured in their ebook "Selling Fine Art Photography". Photoshelter knows how to handle pricing - they leave it up to THE PHOTOGRAPHER to choose their own selling price. They have price lists as well, and even have a self-fulfillment price list where photoshelter collects the money and the photographer prints the photo themselves. They understand that business owners what to control what is important to them - their prices!

In years past I was a portrait/wedding/special event photographer as well. NEVER NEVER NEVER has my print pricing been based solely as a percentage markup from what the lab charges. There are so many other costs involved in running a business - the very least of which are print prices - that factor into my final selling price. How can smugmug be so shortsighted to think that print prices alone should be the determining factor of what the customer price should be is beyond me and certainly not business friendly and definitely not the definition of a "PRO" account.

My answers to a few of the questions/statements being made here:

Originally Posted by Sheaf Part of it also came down to confusion. We feel it would be confusing for a Pro to set a final price, but only have the profit be locked down.

Originally Posted by Sheaf I'm genuinely curious, but why is it a difficult concept to adjust your profit if you want a different price?

Are you kidding me? Many business owners just like me are quite capable of figuring out our selling price!! I am quite shocked at this response. My prices are based on the square inch. A 20x30 has 600 square inches. On average I sell my work for about $1 a square inch, making a 20x30 priced out at $600. That price factors in lab costs (the smallest expense there is), it factors in experience, camera equipment, computers, software, insurance, and all of the other business expenses I and any other photographer has. It is certainly NOT confusing to me to set my final prices. What I am confused about is why smugmug thinks lab costs alone should be where final print price is based upon?!?

The way this new price list is set up, for me to sell something at $225, I have to keep inputing numbers, guessing all along, until I hit my magical selling price of $225. I should be able to adjust it with one easy number entry! Why is that a difficult concept????

Originally Posted by Baldy The other thing I'm not clear about is whether participating in lab sales is interesting to you. It's the idea that when a lab discounts prints for a special promotion, if you price by profit, you'll be able to auto opt in to their promotions. This has long been a request from what we thought were the majority of both U.S. and foreign pros. Thanks, Baldy

Honestly, I could care less about lab specials and can only guess this pricing change was completely motivated by the printing labs so that they can increase their print sales by offering us specials. When I am selling a print for $1,000, a $10 lab discount is really meaningless. I am sure this is a great idea for some/many photographers - BUT NOT ALL OF US!

Originally Posted by Andy How can we change your prices? I'm not sure I understand this part. Can you elaborate, because I'd really like to understand this much better - thanks!

If I have my pricing set where the selling price ends up being what I want - $225 - and the lab starts charging more, say $2 more, then my final selling price would automatically be more than the $225 I wanted because the only number locked in and changeable is my profit number. If a lab runs a special saving me $2, then my price would automatically be less than $225. THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE. I want complete control over my final prices. It is what I advertise with! I do not want smugmug or the labs in control of my final selling price.

Originally Posted by Sheaf One of the biggest problems with the old system was that you couldn't get a clear idea of your overall pricing. Volume Pros, the ones who want us to handle the dirty work and have a nice scalable system, were a big factor in driving us to do this feature... We build the features for our customers.

I am not a volume seller - my prices are too high for volume. In my case I need to be able to control my selling price and be able to easily and quickly change my selling price. This is supposed to be a PRO account. I should be free to price the way I want to price. You said you "build the features of our customers" - then PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE figure out a way to make it an option to change the selling price for those of us who are just like me and want to control that.

Originally Posted by jonh68 Will there be an option to just set the price you want without having to play around with percent profit, or the amount of profit wanted?

TOTALLY

Originally Posted by MattSuess Wow - I am really shocked here - this change to a percentage based price list is a MAJOR FAIL on the part of smugmug and I implore you to change this and allow us to manually and easily change the selling price amount. A little background on me for perspective. I have been a full-time photography pro for over 20 years. I currently am a fine art photographer selling open and limited edition prints. I am new to smugmug, having just purchased a pro account 3 weeks ago after figuring out the old price system and making it work for me - and now you change it to a terribly thought out percentage price list. I have been with Photoshelter for years prior to smugmug, even being featured in one of their many popular free ebooks - I was featured in their ebook "Selling Fine Art Photography". Photoshelter knows how to handle pricing - they leave it up to THE PHOTOGRAPHER to choose their own selling price. They have price lists as well, and even have a self-fulfillment price list where photoshelter collects the money and the photographer prints the photo themselves. They understand that business owners what to control what is important to them - their prices! In years past I was a portrait/wedding/special event photographer as well. NEVER NEVER NEVER has my print pricing been based solely as a percentage markup from what the lab charges. There are so many other costs involved in running a business - the very least of which are print prices - that factor into my final selling price. How can smugmug be so shortsighted to think that print prices alone should be the determining factor of what the customer price should be is beyond me and certainly not business friendly and definitely not the definition of a "PRO" account. My answers to a few of the questions/statements being made here: Are you kidding me? Many business owners just like me are quite capable of figuring out our selling price!! I am quite shocked at this response. My prices are based on the square inch. A 20x30 has 600 square inches. On average I sell my work for about $1 a square inch, making a 20x30 priced out at $600. That price factors in lab costs (the smallest expense there is), it factors in experience, camera equipment, computers, software, insurance, and all of the other business expenses I and any other photographer has. It is certainly NOT confusing to me to set my final prices. What I am confused about is why smugmug thinks lab costs alone should be where final print price is based upon?!? The way this new price list is set up, for me to sell something at $225, I have to keep inputing numbers, guessing all along, until I hit my magical selling price of $225. I should be able to adjust it with one easy number entry! Why is that a difficult concept???? Honestly, I could care less about lab specials and can only guess this pricing change was completely motivated by the printing labs so that they can increase their print sales by offering us specials. When I am selling a print for $1,000, a $10 lab discount is really meaningless. I am sure this is a great idea for some/many photographers - BUT NOT ALL OF US! If I have my pricing set where the selling price ends up being what I want - $225 - and the lab starts charging more, say $2 more, then my final selling price would automatically be more than the $225 I wanted because the only number locked in and changeable is my profit number. If a lab runs a special saving me $2, then my price would automatically be less than $225. THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE. I want complete control over my final prices. It is what I advertise with! I do not want smugmug or the labs in control of my final selling price. I am not a volume seller - my prices are too high for volume. In my case I need to be able to control my selling price and be able to easily and quickly change my selling price. This is supposed to be a PRO account. I should be free to price the way I want to price. You said you "build the features of our customers" - then PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE figure out a way to make it an option to change the selling price for those of us who are just like me and want to control that.

TOTALLY Again...

At first i was excited about PRICE LISTS...but after delving into it and seeing everything is driven by profit %'s this sux big time...like the 2 quoted above....I need to have complete control..single entry of final price...not trying this percentage or that percentage....

PriceLists would be great if we could simply input final prices we need and not have to Muck with profit percentages....that is creating way more UNNECESSARY work for us....

Of course an OPT OUT of the new Profit Percentage PriceLists would be awesome also.

Originally Posted by Sheaf We don't know yet, to be honest. Here's what we do know: We can't build features like lab sales, foreign currency, and certain new products in the best way possible if final prices are set in stone like the old system The vast majority of people using pricelists, if not every single person so far, is using the same or fewer pricing schemes than before Most have dramatically reduced the number, thus dramatically reducing the amount of time they need to spend fiddling with profits and prices One thing we have heard loud and clear is that when they set a value, they absolutely do not want us changing it It's highly unlikely we will lock down final prices instead of profits. There is a possibility of making the final price field editable, but we would have to make it explicitly clear that the chosen value could change, albeit very rarely if priced in the currency of the lab and opted out of lab sales.

So why not continue to implement automatic (currency or sale) price changes pegged to the locked-down profit, but allow that (to be locked-down) profit to be entered either by direct entry in the profit column or calculated from an entered price in the price column?

For Smugmug US customers selling prints to US customers, where there is no currency change involved, It will appear the same as allowing price to be set (and fixed) directly. Where there is currency change involved, it will work as already envisioned by Smugmug.

The nature of the running discourse has had Smugmug arguing an underlying implementation characteristic: profit lock-down across currency/sale changes against a user interface request for price entry. These need not be incompatible.

The hardest part, as always, is to explain what you have implemented to the Smugmug customer base. They may need help understanding that it works for them.

Dale B. Dalrymple

I just had all my previous prices nuked by hitting the migration tool, and after sending a help email three times I am upset that no one is at home. Can I have my prices restored? They all seem to be set at zero profit now.