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Bryce Wilson · Jun-07-2012, 05:11 PM #41

Quote:

Originally Posted by troopers

A business owner is able to decide what jobs they want to do or not to. The decision can be based on compensation, location, hours, client expectations, etc., but the decision can NOT be based on ethnicity, weight, sexual preference, religion, etc.

As far as federal statutes go, that is incorrect unless your business is housing or banking. Individual state statutes may vary.

NagoC50 · Jun-07-2012, 05:20 PM #42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

Having government decide which group of people can be discriminated against versus which can not be discriminated against is allowing the government to determine at their whim which group has more rights and to mandate how you will run your business.

While I am not a constitutional lawyer, this is the very concept of a "protected class" whether it may be race, religion or, in this instance, sexual orientation. Anti-discrimination statutes sound in that fashion, not from perspective of the product or service provided. In that sense I don't think that it is correct to opt out photographic/video or other services because of a creative element. I just don't think that we are different than any other service provider (whether its a pizza parlor, plumber or landlord) on that issue. IMO, the ultimate issue really is whether sexual orientation should be a protected class (and that's a debate for somewhere else!)

Sam[/QUOTE]

**Matthew Saville** · Jun-07-2012, 07:11 PM #43

Separation of church and state is what this country was founded on.

On the one hand, that means that the state can't shove laws down the throats of religion. (Aside from murder etc.)

On the OTHER hand, it also means that religion can't shove it's beliefs down the government's throats, and turn them into law.

I think that in another 50-100 years, the whole gay rights thing is going to be just as embarsassing of a scar on our nation's history as slavery and civil rights is today. (Hopefully far fewer than 50-100!)

...But this doesn't mean that beliefs and personal conviction are going to be illegal soon, nor will they be "business suicide". The bottom line is much more simple: some people are considerate, respectful human beings, ...and some are prejudiced bigots. I know christian bigots, jewish and muslim bigots, atheist bigots, ...heck I know a handful of gay bigots too. Disrespect and insensitivity comes from all walks of life, not just the religious.

So on the one hand, I firmly believe that we should be allowed to let our beliefs influence our decisions in life. But on the other hand, if you're dumb enough to say something like that to someone's face, you deserve to learn a lesson. Next time, try "live and let live..."

=Matt=

Pupator · Jun-08-2012, 03:39 AM #44

Matt,

"We only shoot traditional marriages" is a dumb and bigoted thing to say? How can one let their beliefs influence their decisions in life, something you say you firmly believe, if they can't say "we only shoot traditional marriages?" The only alternative suggestions I've heard so far involve lying (or something rather close to it), and I imagine there are some of us for whom lying would violate a core belief as well.

If the photographer declines to shoot the wedding, and doesn't get sued, is the couple stopped from marrying? (no) Are they stopped from having pictures taken at their wedding? (no, there are lots of photographers that will take the job) Are they stopped from telling their friends that such-and-such photography is, in their opinion, bigoted? (no)

So in this case, was it really the photographer who failed to practice live and let live?

Icebear · Jun-08-2012, 08:02 AM #45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pupator

Matt,

"We only shoot traditional marriages" is a dumb and bigoted thing to say? How can one let their beliefs influence their decisions in life, something you say you firmly believe, if they can't say "we only shoot traditional marriages?"

But in North Carolina, not too many years ago, a "traditional marriage" would most assuredly NOT have involved a multi-racial couple. There are certainly some wedding photographers in North Carolina today who still consider "miscegenation" a sin. It follows then that, in your opinion, these service providers should have legal protection for refusing to provide service to the public based on their concept of sin, a clearly religious concept, and one that most people would consider egregious bigotry.

One of the legitimate functions of a state is to provide a secular structure and a stable atmosphere for the conduct of business, so everyone knows what the rules are and the whole public is served fairly. There is a huge difference in saying "we shoot weddings, except for those like yours" and saying "we only shoot muslim weddings." The first involves discrimination against a group. The second involves specialization. The difference is not really subtle.

Eia · Jun-08-2012, 08:52 AM #46

I am not a wedding photographer but find this interesting for any small business. I am not being factitious but I am curious - <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w

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ontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Do I have the right to run a Christian business based solely on Christian values?

troopers · Jun-08-2012, 09:04 AM #47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce Wilson

As far as federal statutes go, that is incorrect unless your business is housing or banking. Individual state statutes may vary.

Where in this country is discrimination allowed?

troopers · Jun-08-2012, 09:08 AM #48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eia

I am not a wedding photographer but find this interesting for any small business. I am not being factitious but I am curious - Do I have the right to run a Christian business based solely on Christian values?

Slippery question...can you provide a specific example?

Eia · Jun-08-2012, 09:19 AM #49

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oNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

ontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w

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ontBreakConstrainedForcedTables/> <w

ontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Well - maybe I can ask another way - and honestly, not mean spirited ---

As a small business owner and citizen of US - do I have the right to run my business and to do so openly and honestly without fear or coercion from the Government or any people group?
With photography as my vocation - it is intertwined with my lifestyle and clients (consider the intimate level with a customer), my religious beliefs, and my biblical principles and ethics in the business world - Can I operate a small business within harmony of these doctrines without fear or coercion from the government or any people group?

Bryce Wilson · Jun-08-2012, 09:20 AM #50

Quote:

Originally Posted by troopers

Where in this country is discrimination allowed?

The Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice enforces federal laws that prohibit discrimination in:

Education
Housing
Public Accommodations
Lending
Voting
Employment
Law Enforcement

Federal laws do not prohibit a photographer from declining business based upon bigotry. However, some state statutes, as in New Mexico, do apply. Now, they would get involved, and rightly so, if said photographer declined to hire someone based upon race, country of origin, sexual preference, etc.

divamum · Jun-08-2012, 09:39 AM #51

Quote:

One of the legitimate functions of a state is to provide a secular structure and a stable atmosphere for the conduct of business, so everyone knows what the rules are and the whole public is served fairly. There is a huge difference in saying "we shoot weddings, except for those like yours" and saying "we only shoot muslim weddings." The first involves discrimination against a group. The second involves specialization. The difference is not really subtle.

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sam · Jun-08-2012, 09:42 AM #52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eia

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ontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w

ontVertAlignCellWithSp/> <w

ontBreakConstrainedForcedTables/> <w

ontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Well - maybe I can ask another way - and honestly, not mean spirited ---

As a small business owner and citizen of US - do I have the right to run my business and to do so openly and honestly without fear or coercion from the Government or any people group?
With photography as my vocation - it is intertwined with my lifestyle and clients (consider the intimate level with a customer), my religious beliefs, and my biblical principles and ethics in the business world - Can I operate a small business within harmony of these doctrines without fear or coercion from the government or any people group?

Anna,

The short answer is no.

Sam

T. Bombadil · Jun-08-2012, 09:49 AM #53

hmmmm. Does this mean a photographer could specialize in Christian weddings? Say . . . Catholic and Baptist, no Episcopalian, no Muslim, no Wiccan, etc. That would exclude gay marriages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icebear

There is a huge difference in saying "we shoot weddings, except for those like yours" and saying "we only shoot muslim weddings." The first involves discrimination against a group. The second involves specialization. The difference is not really subtle.

Edit: Come to think of it, specializing in Muslim weddings would exclude gay marriages also.

Sam · Jun-08-2012, 09:56 AM #54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icebear

But in North Carolina, not too many years ago, a "traditional marriage" would most assuredly NOT have involved a multi-racial couple. There are certainly some wedding photographers in North Carolina today who still consider "miscegenation" a sin. It follows then that, in your opinion, these service providers should have legal protection for refusing to provide service to the public based on their concept of sin, a clearly religious concept, and one that most people would consider egregious bigotry.

One of the legitimate functions of a state is to provide a secular structure and a stable atmosphere for the conduct of business, so everyone knows what the rules are and the whole public is served fairly. There is a huge difference in saying "we shoot weddings, except for those like yours" and saying "we only shoot muslim weddings." The first involves discrimination against a group. The second involves specialization. The difference is not really subtle.

First and I know this will set you off

Yes if someone believes interracial marriage is wrong I don't think the state should force them to participate. It's called freedom and it's messy. Freedom isn't simply allowing others to do what you condone but also the freedom to do things you disagree with.

Second the next paragraph seems to be convoluted non logic. If you can advertise you only do Muslim weddings, why can't someone else advertise they only do traditional Christian weddings?

Sam

T. Bombadil · Jun-08-2012, 09:59 AM #55

Anna,

eHarmony.com attempted to do that, and discovered you are limited in how you can conduct your business.

"Well - maybe I can ask another way - and honestly, not mean spirited ---

As a small business owner and citizen of US - do I have the right to run my business and to do so openly and honestly without fear or coercion from the Government or any people group?
With photography as my vocation - it is intertwined with my lifestyle and clients (consider the intimate level with a customer), my religious beliefs, and my biblical principles and ethics in the business world - Can I operate a small business within harmony of these doctrines without fear or coercion from the government or any people group?"

Sam · Jun-08-2012, 10:09 AM #56

Quote:

Originally Posted by troopers

Where in this country is discrimination allowed?

Well that's a good question. First I think it depends on ones definition of discrimination, and the laws written to protect against discrimination.

Basically you are allowed to discriminate against and person or group if they are not designated as a protected group. You may also discriminate openly by providing an opportunity / job / etc for one person with less qualification over a more qualified person simply based on race / gender / etc.

So yes some types of discrimination is not only allowed but recommended and supported by government.

Sam

**Harryb** · Jun-08-2012, 10:13 AM #57

This is a rather simple issue. If you operate a business you need to understand the local laws that regulate businesses. If you offer your services to the general public you have to abide by the local laws and regulations. If they say you can't discriminate based on (fill in the blanks) then that's what you have to abide by.

You may not agree with it but your agreement is not required. I don't agree with our local speed limits but that some how that has not yet detered the officier from giving me a ticket.

T. Bombadil · Jun-08-2012, 10:21 AM #58

Agreed.

There would be less debate over issues such as this if we recognized each other's freedom to be wrong (and to suffer the consequences of our errors, in peace and alone).

Freedom should include freedom of photographers without hangups about who is marrying whom to grab that business away from those who have reservations about it. Everybody wins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

First and I know this will set you off

Yes if someone believes interracial marriage is wrong I don't think the state should force them to participate. It's called freedom and it's messy. Freedom isn't simply allowing others to do what you condone but also the freedom to do things you disagree with. . . .

Sam

Icebear · Jun-08-2012, 10:24 AM #59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

First and I know this will set you off

Yes if someone believes interracial marriage is wrong I don't think the state should force them to participate. It's called freedom and it's messy. Freedom isn't simply allowing others to do what you condone but also the freedom to do things you disagree with.

Second the next paragraph seems to be convoluted non logic. If you can advertise you only do Muslim weddings, why can't someone else advertise they only do traditional Christian weddings?

Sam

Nah, Sam. You won't set me off. That comment, however, suggests that I should perhaps examine how I come across sometimes

Your First: You can feel that "it's called freedom" is the guiding principle here, but the laws of the land exist in part to constrain our freedom in order that such a diverse and closely packed multitude of people can get along and not crush the weak. If you offer yourself as a service provider to the public, the way you do business will indeed mean that sometimes you must do things you don't want to do, or serve people you don't want to serve.

Your Second: I think you are pretending density. If you were in Provo, Utah, I think it'd be appropriate to advertise that you do roman catholic weddings. Since the population of Provo is 88% mormon, it might be a boon to catholics to be able to find a photographer who specialized in their brand. The key matter IMO is that discriminating in favor of a small group is looked upon more favorably in law than discriminating against that same group.

I don't get this whole issue. A photographer is not being asked to endorse a marriage . . . just document it. But I digress.

troopers · Jun-08-2012, 10:37 AM #60

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce Wilson

The Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice enforces federal laws that prohibit discrimination in:

Education
Housing
Public Accommodations
Lending
Voting
Employment
Law Enforcement

Federal laws do not prohibit a photographer from declining business based upon bigotry. However, some state statutes, as in New Mexico, do apply. Now, they would get involved, and rightly so, if said photographer declined to hire someone based upon race, country of origin, sexual preference, etc.

Right. Is there a state that alllows a photographer to discriminate?


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Jun-07-2012, 07:11 PM #43
Matthew Saville Wedding Photographer Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Southern California Posts: 2,911	Separation of church and state is what this country was founded on. On the one hand, that means that the state can't shove laws down the throats of religion. (Aside from murder etc.) On the OTHER hand, it also means that religion can't shove it's beliefs down the government's throats, and turn them into law. I think that in another 50-100 years, the whole gay rights thing is going to be just as embarsassing of a scar on our nation's history as slavery and civil rights is today. (Hopefully far fewer than 50-100!) ...But this doesn't mean that beliefs and personal conviction are going to be illegal soon, nor will they be "business suicide". The bottom line is much more simple: some people are considerate, respectful human beings, ...and some are prejudiced bigots. I know christian bigots, jewish and muslim bigots, atheist bigots, ...heck I know a handful of gay bigots too. Disrespect and insensitivity comes from all walks of life, not just the religious. So on the one hand, I firmly believe that we should be allowed to let our beliefs influence our decisions in life. But on the other hand, if you're dumb enough to say something like that to someone's face, you deserve to learn a lesson. Next time, try "live and let live..." =Matt= __________________ “My first thought is always of light.” – Galen Rowell My Personal Portfolio • My Latest Work Moderator of the Dgrin Weddings Forum

Jun-08-2012, 03:39 AM #44
Pupator Major grins Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,296	Matt, "We only shoot traditional marriages" is a dumb and bigoted thing to say? How can one let their beliefs influence their decisions in life, something you say you firmly believe, if they can't say "we only shoot traditional marriages?" The only alternative suggestions I've heard so far involve lying (or something rather close to it), and I imagine there are some of us for whom lying would violate a core belief as well. If the photographer declines to shoot the wedding, and doesn't get sued, is the couple stopped from marrying? (no) Are they stopped from having pictures taken at their wedding? (no, there are lots of photographers that will take the job) Are they stopped from telling their friends that such-and-such photography is, in their opinion, bigoted? (no) So in this case, was it really the photographer who failed to practice live and let live?

Jun-08-2012, 08:52 AM #46
Eia Major grins Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Arizona Posts: 2,848	I am not a wedding photographer but find this interesting for any small business. I am not being factitious but I am curious - <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <woNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <wontVertAlignCellWithSp/> <wontBreakConstrainedForcedTables/> <wontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub 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mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> Do I have the right to run a Christian business based solely on Christian values? __________________ ~AnnaMaria~ My little life in God's big universe

Jun-08-2012, 09:19 AM #49
Eia Major grins Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Arizona Posts: 2,848	<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <woNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <wontVertAlignCellWithSp/> <wontBreakConstrainedForcedTables/> <wontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin 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Locked="false" Priority="21" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" Name="Bibliography"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> Well - maybe I can ask another way - and honestly, not mean spirited --- As a small business owner and citizen of US - do I have the right to run my business and to do so openly and honestly without fear or coercion from the Government or any people group? With photography as my vocation - it is intertwined with my lifestyle and clients (consider the intimate level with a customer), my religious beliefs, and my biblical principles and ethics in the business world - Can I operate a small business within harmony of these doctrines without fear or coercion from the government or any people group? __________________ ~AnnaMaria~ My little life in God's big universe

Jun-08-2012, 09:59 AM #55
T. Bombadil Major grins Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Maine, USA Posts: 210	Anna, eHarmony.com attempted to do that, and discovered you are limited in how you can conduct your business. "Well - maybe I can ask another way - and honestly, not mean spirited --- As a small business owner and citizen of US - do I have the right to run my business and to do so openly and honestly without fear or coercion from the Government or any people group? With photography as my vocation - it is intertwined with my lifestyle and clients (consider the intimate level with a customer), my religious beliefs, and my biblical principles and ethics in the business world - Can I operate a small business within harmony of these doctrines without fear or coercion from the government or any people group?" __________________ Bruce Chooka chooka hoo la ley Looka looka koo la ley

Jun-08-2012, 10:13 AM #57
Harryb old and lazy Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Viera, Florida Posts: 22,541	This is a rather simple issue. If you operate a business you need to understand the local laws that regulate businesses. If you offer your services to the general public you have to abide by the local laws and regulations. If they say you can't discriminate based on (fill in the blanks) then that's what you have to abide by. You may not agree with it but your agreement is not required. I don't agree with our local speed limits but that some how that has not yet detered the officier from giving me a ticket. __________________ Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"