I was in an online forum discussing Smugmug and a couple pbase users piped up and said that they thought smugmug looked "messy" and they like the simplicity and clean lines of pbase.

Knowing that most pbase galleries look somewhat like the smugmug "traditional" style, I thought I'd look at smugmug's traditional style (which I don't use) and see how it compares to pbase's default view to see if I could successfully argue with them that smugmug has a style that supports a similar usage pattern as pbase's default style. I was surprised, Smugmug does not have such a style. The Smugmug "traditional" view doesn't seem to measure up.

What pbase does is put a large number of thumbs on the screen. If you want to view a particular image, you click on it and a "screen-size" version of the image opens. Here's an example pbase gallery that works like this: http://www.pbase.com/maxie6/san_francisco. To dismiss the opened large image and return to the thumbs you just click on the image again and you are back in the thumbs. While it requires an extra click to "browse" a large number of images versus the "smugmug" style, it has the advantage that when you express an interest in a particular image, you get to more efficiently see a larger view of the image. You can see a larger version using the smugmug style, but it's not easy to go between thumb and large version in the smugmug style and pbase is very good at that.

The smugmug traditional style, on the other hand, shows a max of 16 thumbs on the screen (pbase shows all of them without paging) and then when you click on a thumb to view a larger version of it, smugmug shows you the original sized version of the image which is way, way, way too large to see anything useful on the screen. And, further, you can't click on the image to get back to the thumbs. You have to hit the back key.

So, I guess I'm wondering if anyone likes the smugmug traditional view as it is today and uses it regularly? Or would smugmug attract more people who are looking for that type of presentation if they enhanced it to work at least as well as pbase's default view.

I'm also open to other ways in Smugmug to solve the pbase-style user's needs - I just haven't found it yet.

John,
that are some interesting thoughts.
I do use the traditional style almost exclusively especially when browsing through my own galleries. I don't need big pictures to do my maintainance work and it bothers me a lot that photo tools aren't included in the traditional view anymore.
If you're looking for a style with more thumbnails, give allthumbs a try - it does exactly what the name suggests.
I like the browsing style pbase offers, but it isn't suitable for a lot of thumbs on one page, because when you click on the image to get back to the thumbs you always find yourself at the beginning of the gallerypage and have to scroll down to where you clicked on the last image. That's the reason I like the traditional of smugmug more, because the thumbs almost fit the screen. Even though I would like to see the number of thumbnails in tradtional to be customized by the user.
Many people on smugmug are used to click on pictures to get bigger ones, but I also like the navigation style of pbase - what about introducing a 3rd link in the navigation bar back to the corresponding traditional thumb page where the particular photo is located? Therefore one would be in the need to push the back button in the browser - some don't even use it and might get lost in the single-image-view.


Sebastian

This is very timely becuase I'm about to make a demo site that will, I hope, appeal to Pbase users. In addition, I know of one hacker who's nearly done with a Pbase-to-SmugMug "backup" utility.

Originally Posted by rainforest1155 John, that are some interesting thoughts. I do use the traditional style almost exclusively especially when browsing through my own galleries. I don't need big pictures to do my maintainance work and it bothers me a lot that photo tools aren't included in the traditional view anymore. If you're looking for a style with more thumbnails, give allthumbs a try - it does exactly what the name suggests. I like the browsing style pbase offers, but it isn't suitable for a lot of thumbs on one page, because when you click on the image to get back to the thumbs you always find yourself at the beginning of the gallerypage and have to scroll down to where you clicked on the last image. That's the reason I like the traditional of smugmug more, because the thumbs almost fit the screen. Even though I would like to see the number of thumbnails in tradtional to be customized by the user. Many people on smugmug are used to click on pictures to get bigger ones, but I also like the navigation style of pbase - what about introducing a 3rd link in the navigation bar back to the corresponding traditional thumb page where the particular photo is located? Therefore one would be in the need to push the back button in the browser - some don't even use it and might get lost in the single-image-view. Sebastian

It looks like All-thumbs is slightly better for pbase users because it puts all the thumbs on one screen with no paging, but it still has pretty brain dead navigation to the larger version. I have no idea why smugmug opens the largest version of the image you have when you click on a thumb from either traditional or all-thumbs. It seems like the odds that that is what a viewer wants are about 2%. More likely, a viewer wants to see a larger version of the image that "fits on the screen".

It seems like smugmug could get the best of both worlds with this implementation.

1) All-thumbs view
2) Click on an image to open the largest version that will fit on the screen.
3) Allow either the standard next/prev navigation from this view or allow the user to click on the image and have a Javascript function that does "back". Using back will preserve the scroll position from the previous screen. If JavaScript isn't supported, it could just go back to the gallery like pbase does.

Originally Posted by jfriend I have no idea why smugmug opens the largest version of the image you have when you click on a thumb from either traditional or all-thumbs.

It opens the last size you had viewed, which is stored as a cookie....

Originally Posted by Andy It opens the last size you had viewed, which is stored as a cookie....

Check that .. we open it as the size you have checked, in "preferred viewing size"

BTW I'm convinced that mostly, it's a matter of folks just "being used to" the pbase interface. Like all things, it takes getting used to SmugMug, too

you can click the album title in the breadcrumb to take you back to the gallery. it's not very intuitive, nor does it stand out, but it's there.

clicking the image to go back to the gallery would be a welcome addition.

or you could just install mouse gestures and be even faster :-D

Originally Posted by Andy Check that .. we open it as the size you have checked, in "preferred viewing size"

That's good to know. I didn't realize I had it set to small. So I would click on the thumb and get small. Click on the small and get medium...click on the medium to get large. Now I just set the friggin' thing to large, and I'm a happy camper!

Originally Posted by jfriend when you click on a thumb to view a larger version of it, smugmug shows you the original sized version of the image which is way, way, way too large to see anything useful on the screen.

Actually, this is because you told SmugMug you like it this way at some point. :)

Since everyone has different monitor sizes and video cards, we leave this choice in your hands. Once selected, we use it all over the site - and you can change it at will, any time.

So if I'm understanding the request properly, it really comes down to two things:

A) More thumbnails (you don't want All Thumbs for some reason)

B) Clicking the single image takes you back, rather than taking you to another size.

Is that correct? Or am I missing something else?

Don

I think you bring up some good points john (this is a reply to your first message - I haven't gotten any farther). When I'm designing a site for smugmug I have 3 tabs and one extra window open in firefox - bear with me. The first tab is the theme or the cobranding page, the second tab is the main page for the site that I'm doing, the third tab is a gallery that is roughly equivalent to what that person is likely to have on their site (or a gallery on mikelane2.smugmug.com that has every possible field filled). I can switch among all the styles in that third tab so I can make sure I get everything right.

In the open window I have the gallery where I uploaded all the site image files. I use the traditional view exclusively for that. The reason is because I get all thumbnails (I don't need anything bigger) and I get the file name as a caption (so I can differentiate between a wide background and a medium-wide background and a narrow background for instance). If I'm ever in doubt I find it super easy to click on the thumbnail which brings up the single Image view of the larger image.

All's well except I have two problems with it. First, as you said, I would rather the traditional view show all the thumbs in a gallery rather than only 16 (I think it's 16 right?). Going back and forth is annoying. And second, there is no easy way (other than the back key) to get from the single image view back to the traditional view. I can go up to the select menu at the top right and that's about it.

But that's when I'm coding a smugmug design. When I'm viewing a smugmug site I very much prefer the smugmug gallery style except for one thing. When I click on the large image in the smugmug gallery style, I would rather have the single Image view pop up than the javascript pop up window that we've got now. Honestly, I don't much care for the javascript pop-up. It's formatting isn't consistent with the rest of the site and, well, I just freaking hate pop-up windows. It just seems to make so much more sense to go to the single Image view (and yes, I know you can get to it from the other sizes links below the image).

At any rate, I find the browsing experience MUCH better with the smugmug style than the traditional style or the Pbase style. I think it's way cleaner and more organized than that Pbase style. I'd put that Pbase style to the Pepsi challenge against the smugmug style any day of the week.

Originally Posted by onethumb Actually, this is because you told SmugMug you like it this way at some point. :) Since everyone has different monitor sizes and video cards, we leave this choice in your hands. Once selected, we use it all over the site - and you can change it at will, any time. So if I'm understanding the request properly, it really comes down to two things: A) More thumbnails (you don't want All Thumbs for some reason) B) Clicking the single image takes you back, rather than taking you to another size. Is that correct? Or am I missing something else? Don

If I may

A) All thumbs is great except (IMHO) you don't have a caption / file name, I'd use that instead if it did.

B) Clicking on the image is unintuitive IMHO (this is a problem in the javascript pop up images too btw) clicking on a navigation button makes more sense to me (i.e. "return to gallery" or "go back"). Then again, it's just one more thing for me to customize
[EDIT: nevermind, I forgot the album title is a link back to the gallery in question... (don't we have a strikeout font style on dgrin???)]

Originally Posted by Mike Lane ...And second, there is no easy way (other than the back key) to get from the single image view back to the traditional view. I can go up to the select menu at the top right and that's about it.

in singleimage view, the album title (sorry, #albumTitle for folks like us ) is clickable

like i said, it's not very intuitive...this just exemplifies that.

Originally Posted by bigwebguy in singleimage view, the album title (sorry, #albumTitle for folks like us ) is clickable like i said, it's not very intuitive...this just exemplifies that.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that... It's underlined and everything (if your theme creator or paid designer is smart enough to make sure of it anyhow ) So nevermind on that point.

Originally Posted by Andy This is very timely becuase I'm about to make a demo site that will, I hope, appeal to Pbase users. In addition, I know of one hacker who's nearly done with a Pbase-to-SmugMug "backup" utility.

If you come up with a configuration that will meet or beat the needs of people who like the pbase navigation model, please let me know because when I get into a discussion with a pbase user today who likes that nav model, I can't show them how smugmug satisfies their needs and I'd love to be able to answer their questions.

Originally Posted by Mike Lane At any rate, I find the browsing experience MUCH better with the smugmug style than the traditional style or the Pbase style. I think it's way cleaner and more organized than that Pbase style. I'd put that Pbase style to the Pepsi challenge against the smugmug style any day of the week.

I do not intend for this thread to become a pbase style vs. smugmug style debate. I started this thread because I'm dealing with people who "like the pbase style". It would be far easier for me to explain to them how their desires can be met on smugmug than it would be for me to convince them to change styles. In fact, if the discussion degenerates into which style is better, I'll just drop out of the conversation because it's just a UI opinion argument at that point and their opinion is what their opinion is - there's not a lot I can do to change it. But, if I could explain or show them how their desires can be met on Smugmug, then they are completely disarmed. They are much more likely to look at the other benefits of smugmug.

I myself generally prefer the smugmug style, but there are times (particulary when I want to see a lot of full screen images, but not the whole gallery) that the pbase style works better than the smugmug style. With smugmug, I can't find an efficient way to "browse" large images. Look at a group of thumbs, pick one you want to see a large version of, see the large version, then go back to the thumbs. It's a lot of clicks in smugmug, it's easy in pbase.

OTOH, if you want to see all the large versions in a gallery, smugmug is fine. Just open the first image in large mode and use the nav buttons directly from there, or go to slideshow mode.

Or, if you want to browse efficiently at the medium size, smugmug is almost as good as it can be. The only thing more I'd want is to allow a user to get rid of the paging model (if they have sufficient bandwidth) and make the thumbs on the left scrollable (independent of the main image) so you don't have to deal with paging, but can freely click on any thumb to see the medium version without new windows opening or paging.

Originally Posted by Andy BTW I'm convinced that mostly, it's a matter of folks just "being used to" the pbase interface. Like all things, it takes getting used to SmugMug, too

Getting "used to a UI" may be the case, but there are many online forum discussions where smugmug loses points in the discussion (and probably loses some customers too) because people assert that if you like the pbase UI, smugmug can't do that. This whole thread is NOT about what I want (I don't use a pbase-style UI), it's about what those customers think they want. If you want to be able to disarm this objection and get them to more seriously consider smugmug, we need to be able to tell them and show them that they can have a UI similar to pbase on smugmug. I sounds like all-thumbs is close, but not quite there.

If I get some time, I'll play with all-thumbs some more and see if I can list what seems to be missing. It's a little hard for me to do because I'm not they guy that wants the pbase style, I'm just the guy trying to explain to the pbase guy how he can have what he wants at smugmug.

Originally Posted by onethumb Actually, this is because you told SmugMug you like it this way at some point. :) Since everyone has different monitor sizes and video cards, we leave this choice in your hands. Once selected, we use it all over the site - and you can change it at will, any time. So if I'm understanding the request properly, it really comes down to two things: A) More thumbnails (you don't want All Thumbs for some reason) B) Clicking the single image takes you back, rather than taking you to another size. Is that correct? Or am I missing something else? Don

Thanks for responding Don. I'll see if I can find some time to detail more about what pbase users think is missing in smugmug. This is not something I want and it's not something I'm an expert at, so I can't just answer your question fully.

Sooooo, that's what the "preferred viewing size" setting is for! I must say that is the most unintuitive setting in smugmug. I'm a pretty advanced user, have been on smugmug for 14 months and I never understood what that setting was used for. I would encounter it in places where it didn't do anything and thus I concluded it was worthless. I even hid it with CSS because I thought it was non-useful and confusing. Here's an example of how it's so confusing. If you are in smugmug style and you click on the main image, you get a popup window with the large version of your image in it. That window has the "preferred viewing size" drop-down. If you set it to "original" and then go back to the same smugmug style and then click on the main image, you get the exact same popup window with the large version in it. It didn't do anything. It appears to just be busted. I was so convinced it was busted, I turned it off in my CSS (I just enabled it again so I could experiment with it). Now I find that it does do something, just nothing in the context I usually see it in. It controls what size image opens from traditional or all-thumbs view. This part of the smugmug UI is pretty messed up.

I'm just reporting my observation from debating smugmug vs. pbase with pbase users. They think smugmug doesn't have some things they think they need. I'd love to be able to tell them that smugmug has the UI they think they want and then the discussion could move to the grounds where smugmug would kick pbase's butt - other useful features, support, site uptime, unlimited storage, printing, pro accounts, etc... But, with what I know about smugmug today, I'm not successful at telling them smugmug has the UI they think they need. I'll pass on more details if or as I understand them.

Another way to describe the problem is to think of me as a smugmug sales guy. I go out into prospective customers pitching smugmug and I find a set of customers that says they want a pbase-like UI. I tell them about all the other great things smugmug has and they say they want a pbase-like UI. I come to the conclusion that until I can tell them that smugmug has a pbase-like UI, they're not going to listen to anything else I tell them.

If I was a real sales guy, I'd either give up on that prospective customer or I'd go back to HQ and ask: "Do we have a pbase-like UI? Or, when will we have a pbase-like UI? I can't sell to x, y and z until I can show them we have a pbase-like UI. I tried to convince them our other features and our UI is better, but they just won't listen. How do I convince them we're better?" If this were a real sales guy, HQ would either tell the sales guy to just go call on someone else and give up on that guy or arm him with a better way to sell to him. I'm asking for the latter.

I like it better how smugmug does it vs. pbase, thats why I went with smug vs. pbase.

Originally Posted by onethumb Actually, this is because you told SmugMug you like it this way at some point. :) Since everyone has different monitor sizes and video cards, we leave this choice in your hands. Once selected, we use it all over the site - and you can change it at will, any time. So if I'm understanding the request properly, it really comes down to two things: A) More thumbnails (you don't want All Thumbs for some reason) B) Clicking the single image takes you back, rather than taking you to another size. Is that correct? Or am I missing something else? Don

Originally Posted by jfriend Getting "used to a UI" may be the case, but there are many online forum discussions where smugmug loses points in the discussion (and probably loses some customers too) because people assert that if you like the pbase UI, smugmug can't do that. This whole thread is NOT about what I want (I don't use a pbase-style UI), it's about what those customers think they want. If you want to be able to disarm this objection and get them to more seriously consider smugmug, we need to be able to tell them and show them that they can have a UI similar to pbase on smugmug. I sounds like all-thumbs is close, but not quite there. If I get some time, I'll play with all-thumbs some more and see if I can list what seems to be missing. It's a little hard for me to do because I'm not they guy that wants the pbase style, I'm just the guy trying to explain to the pbase guy how he can have what he wants at smugmug.

I'm hip. Will you help consult as I design this demo site? Thanks