Question about starting side business, auto photography

robscomputer · April 27, 2005

Hi,

I have a simple question about starting a side business mixing my favorite hobbies, photography and cars. After going to a few car shows I noticed that many people never take any photos of their cars while at the shows. I was thinking about offering a simple photo service using my Smugmug account. Basically I would take a photo of each car, something I usually do already but this time would make sure to get all cars. Then leave behind a small business card for each picture I take.

After the day is done I would upload the pictures to my Smugmug account and change something cheap for the printing, say $10 for a 8x10. I'm not looking to support myself on this business but just get started with commerical photography.

My question is what kind of legal problems could I encounter while doing something like this. If I'm taking pictures of the cars, could the owner sue me since he/she never gave me the right to take the photo in the first place? What I keep thinking about is someone buys a photo of a car they really like, I make a small amount of money from the purchase, and the actual owner of the car makes nothing.

Any suggestions or ideas?

Thanks,
Rob

dragon300zx · April 27, 2005

I'm interested in this as well.

DoctorIt · April 27, 2005

i don't know for sure, but I seriously doubt it. I would guess this is a pretty safe venture. Cars aren't "copyright-able"... a car owner suing you for making money off photographs of his/her car would be like the US govt suing you for taking shots of el capitan at Yosemite, right?

You are selling YOUR photo, not THEIR car.

I would however get permission from the organizers of the show. They would have ownership over press/images/etc from their event. The car owners would then fall under whatever agreement they had with the organizers.

flyingpylon · April 27, 2005

I think Erik is right. And beyond the organizers of the show, you may even have to check with the owners of the venue.

If the cars have sponsor logos of any kind, you may have to get permission from them as well in certain situations (but usually that's just if your photo will appear in an advertisement somewhere). For example, this can be an issue with race cars.

Then again, you could probably go a long way before being "whacked", if you're inclined to chance it.

GREAPER · April 27, 2005

I think Eric is PARTLY right. It depends on the photo, and the car. A picture of a stock 2003 mustang GT in a factory color could be ANY 2003 GT and therefore I believe no release is required.

On the other hand, a Custom 2003 GT with a cool flame job, chrome side pipes and custom pin striping is a recognisable one of a kind car and I believe a property release would be required to prevent legal problems with the owner.

Bodley · April 27, 2005

Not really part of the question BUT you should also have all the appropriate business licenses. Yes that's plural, County, City and State licenses for all the venues you shoot in. They will also want you to collect sales tax.

Greg

robscomputer · April 27, 2005

Thanks for the many comments.

Concerning the cars I do think taking a picture of a common auto wouldn't pose a risk but taking a picture of a custom auto would be more risky. For an example of what I would be taking photos please see my page.

http://robscomputer.smugmug.com/gallery/138922

These photos were taken at a VW/Audi show, but I would attend most of the local shows in the area so it would be a mix of different generation cars. Even some motorcycle shows as well.

Since a popular custom car could be reconized I would rather play it safe and not risk the possible law trouble. Very good point about sponsers on a race car, I never thought about that. I could just think if I tried to sell a photo of a Nascar and how much trouble that could bring.

Also I do intend to do this legally, all of the proper permits and licenses will be applied for.

I had no idea just how involved a "side business" would become!

Thanks again,
Rob

luckyrwe · April 28, 2005

I used to shoot car shows and gave my card to the car owners. When they called (back in the film days) I wanted $1 for a 4x6, $5 or a 5x7 and $10 for an 8x10. This was hardly profitable and I simply worked the numbers so that I was an amateur being reimbursed for my film, gas, and postage, hence no business license needed. Then once they liked my work, then I could continue for money making business!

DoctorIt · April 28, 2005

You need a license/permit to be a photographer now? Someone please fill me in? This seems really over the top for someone who wants to sell some prints from local car shows.

Shay Stephens · April 28, 2005

A business license, sales tax license number, insurance, and anything else the state and or city imposes on someone who wants to start a business and try to earn a profit.

If you are not going to be selling, and just doing it as a hobby, then you don't need anything because you are off the radar, the government can't make anything off of you except sales tax on the products you buy.

DoctorIt wrote:

You need a license/permit to be a photographer now? Someone please fill me in? This seems really over the top for someone who wants to sell some prints from local car shows.

DoctorIt · April 28, 2005

Shay Stephens wrote:

A business license, sales tax license number, insurance, and anything else the state and or city imposes on someone who wants to start a business and try to earn a profit.

If you are not going to be selling, and just doing it as a hobby, then you don't need anything because you are off the radar, the government can't make anything off of you except sales tax on the products you buy.

So does everyone with a pro smugmug account need a business license?

You are totally right, but I guess I'm just making the point that my year to date sales are $30. Would any government agency really give me crap for not being a registered business? Curious, not being a smartass.

Shay Stephens · April 28, 2005

There is probably a money window you can operate in without going the business route. That window varies of course, so check with your state/city to find out for sure.

DoctorIt wrote:

So does everyone with a pro smugmug account need a business license?

You are totally right, but I guess I'm just making the point that my year to date sales are $30. Would any government agency really give me crap for not being a registered business? Curious, not being a smartass.

JamesJWeg · April 28, 2005

I was told that I do NOT need a local Biz license on the location I am shooting it I do NOT sell any photo's ONSITE, with my karting photo's I do not sell onsite and thus save both vendor fee's and do not have to deal with local/state sales taxes/biz licenses. I already have everything setup locally for all parts of my biz, so I just include photo in with it, if you get a biz license, make sure that your name/area of operation is vague so you can include anything you have need to under it. This kind of venture is really where smugmug shines, print up some biz cards, discretly hand them out and do your thing, but do check in with event staff before you start and be 100% sure that you point out that you will not be selling anything at all onsite. It also helps a whole lot if you are also shooting for some news source or publication, I have found it worth it in hasstle reduction just to give a few photo's to a applicable magazine for the combination of photo credit and ease of access to be able to say "I'm also shooting for "XYZ" magazine.

James.

P.S. Be sure you understand the differance between a biz license for your home location VS one for the site you are shooting at, you do not need one for the city etc that you are shooting in provided you are not conducting biz such as selling prints there. Many places charge large vending fees and you have to pay the local tax man if you are selling onsite, one race I did recently I avoided $170 in vendor and tax fee's because I was not selling onsite, the photog there who had a printer had to pay.

mercphoto · April 28, 2005

Sales tax laws confuse me more than anything else, as I'm sure they do everyone. For example, I am based in Texas. I live here, work here. I photograph a race here, post it to Smugmug, based in California. A local buys that print here, but doesn't pay sales tax. Strange.

I'm not a big fan of taxes. I want lower taxes. I'd prefer a smaller government that uses its money more efficiently, rather than continually ask me for more of my money, because they can't spend the money they already have in responsible ways. But I do find it odd how a sale can be made in a state with a tax on sales, and the tax does not get collected when a sale is made.

Sorry for the rant on taxes.

JamesJWeg · April 28, 2005

mercphoto wrote:

Sales tax laws confuse me more than anything else, as I'm sure they do everyone. For example, I am based in Texas. I live here, work here. I photograph a race here, post it to Smugmug, based in California. A local buys that print here, but doesn't pay sales tax. Strange.

I'm not a big fan of taxes. I want lower taxes. I'd prefer a smaller government that uses its money more efficiently, rather than continually ask me for more of my money, because they can't spend the money they already have in responsible ways. But I do find it odd how a sale can be made in a state with a tax on sales, and the tax does not get collected when a sale is made.

Sorry for the rant on taxes.

In accross state line sales the buyer is *suppossed* to pay the tax to his/her own state.

James.

flyingpylon · April 28, 2005

They're buying the print from Smugmug, not from you. Smugmug doesn't have an office in Texas, so they don't have to charge sales tax. But James is right, the buyer is supposed to claim out of state purchases on their state income tax each year.

GerryDavid · April 28, 2005

robscomputer wrote:

After the day is done I would upload the pictures to my Smugmug account and change something cheap for the printing, say $10 for a 8x10. I'm not looking to support myself on this business but just get started with commerical photography.

Im not an expert on this, but ive read alot about it and from what ive read your ripping yourself off and other photographers off by only charging $10. You could probably charge $20 or $25 easily for an 8x10. If there are other photographers at the event that charge this, they will loose business to you for your $10 pictures, and be forced to reduce thier prices. You may not be living off of this income, but they could be, so your setting a low standard for this and its hurting others. Plus if you could be making 2 or more times the money, why not? It will help you get some L glass faster. :0)

The tax stuff also confuses me. I have a GST *7%* and PST *8%* tax numbers for Ontario, so I can charge those taxes. But if I sell something off of smugmug, they pay the CA tax if they live there. I wonder if this could be a problem when its time to fill out my tax form when I have to report my GST or PST tax collected.

JamesJWeg · April 28, 2005

GerryDavid wrote:

Im not an expert on this, but ive read alot about it and from what ive read your ripping yourself off and other photographers off by only charging $10. You could probably charge $20 or $25 easily for an 8x10. If there are other photographers at the event that charge this, they will loose business to you for your $10 pictures, and be forced to reduce thier prices. You may not be living off of this income, but they could be, so your setting a low standard for this and its hurting others. Plus if you could be making 2 or more times the money, why not? It will help you get some L glass faster. :0)

The tax stuff also confuses me. I have a GST *7%* and PST *8%* tax numbers for Ontario, so I can charge those taxes. But if I sell something off of smugmug, they pay the CA tax if they live there. I wonder if this could be a problem when its time to fill out my tax form when I have to report my GST or PST tax collected.

I am betting that you are not required to report a sale which you don't make, smugmug makes the sale, not you.

James.

flyingpylon · April 28, 2005

GerryDavid wrote:

Im not an expert on this, but ive read alot about it and from what ive read your ripping yourself off and other photographers off by only charging $10. You could probably charge $20 or $25 easily for an 8x10. If there are other photographers at the event that charge this, they will loose business to you for your $10 pictures, and be forced to reduce thier prices. You may not be living off of this income, but they could be, so your setting a low standard for this and its hurting others. Plus if you could be making 2 or more times the money, why not? It will help you get some L glass faster. :0)

I think you need to charge what works for you, and what the market will bear. If you are losing a little money but getting experience, meeting people, and enjoying yourself, then it's a good deal and a win/win.

You really have to ask yourself what your primary objective is, and what will make you feel good in the end. I don't agree at all that you owe anything to other photographers or need to engage in price fixing. At the same time you don't need to practice "predatory" pricing- and of course, that is entirely subjective.

mercphoto · April 28, 2005

flyingpylon wrote:

I think you need to charge what works for you, and what the market will bear. If you are losing a little money but getting experience, meeting people, and enjoying yourself, then it's a good deal and a win/win... I don't agree at all that you owe anything to other photographers or need to engage in price fixing. At the same time you don't need to practice "predatory" pricing- and of course, that is entirely subjective.

I would be leary of having low prices in order to meet people, experience, etc. It is very, very hard to raise prices later just because "now I'm worth it." So beware of that. If you PLAN on raising prices in the future, then go with that pricing TODAY. If your photos don't sell, improve your skills and get photos people want, rather than lower prices.

But I do agree that you don't owe anything to other photographers. I know many pro's will disagree. But I'm a software engineer. Do you have any idea the pressure I get from India? From free software? It comes down to either I'm worth what I get paid, or I'm not. Ditto for photographers. As stated, as long as its not predatory, or meant to harm another individual.

Chase · May 4, 2005

Just a word of advice.....

I tried shooting at a local car show, talking with owners, handing out business cards and putting their print sup on my site within 5 or 6 hours of the end of the show. Now these are high end cars (Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Porsches ect.) And not one person of the maybe 50-60 I talked to even emailed me about digital files or placed an order for prints.

This might be harder than you think........

Question about starting side business, auto photography

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