Number of sports photos on a disk & price

clemensphoto's · February 11, 2009

Sports photographers - I need some assistance.

I was approached tonight about burning a CD/DVD of picture for two sports events for a specific player. Since I take a large number of photos at sporting events it makes sense to do this.

My question is how many photos and approximatley how much. I live in a small community so a pricey disk would not go over very well. I thought about up to 50 picture the cost maybe $35 and then an additional $20 for the next 50 photo range.

Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

clcoronios · February 11, 2009

OK - my initial reaction is "why don't you just GIVE IT AWAY????"

But I'm the new kid on the block here and I HAVE seen pricing on some hockey team picture stuff, so I know I'm coming from a different world.

And - I guess I'd want to know if you're just going to give him straight-out-of-camera images (what I'd call proofs - only I even do a little before I put them up as proofs) or if you're going to 'work' each image (perhaps as little as straighten/crop, perhaps including some color correction - or junk removal or ?????).

Does the price you charge (or are thinking of charging) do justice to the time you have spent (shooting & post-processing)? Does it do ANYTHING to cover the wear on your equipment? Does it help cover your business insurance policies?

I'm truly NOT trying to be unpleasant - I just don't understand how prices like this keep professional photographers in business.

I'm looking forward to learning a lot as a 'grinner' -

Best,
Carol

Ann McRae · February 11, 2009

Well, I think you need to decide how this fits with your business model. What I mean is that once you decide you are going to provide images on cd, you are basically working on a fee for service model rather than a per print pricing model. My experience is that this works well, but you do need to be sure that your pricing actually covers your costs plus gets you some profit.

The prices that you have outlined seem pretty low for that.

To shoot, process and deliver a cd of shots from one 'game', I expect you are investing 3 hrs, maybe more depending on workflow and travel time. Therefore, hourly rate that covers your time & expenses + profit x3.

On rereading your post - I am wondering if you have already shot these events? If you have, and were trying to earn through print sales but now are being asked for a cd of images, I think you should price that even higher, or provide fewer images. If you haven't been compensated for your time yet, then the cd is just like a print, really.

HTH

catspaw · February 11, 2009

There have been some good discussions in the Weddings forum about this -- which ties back into your business model. Is your profit from being hired and paid to TAKE the photos, or is your profit coming in when you SELL the photos? Did you already cover your time (taking photos and post processing) for the sporting events in question and this CD sale is just 'frosting' or is this where you DO make your money?

Things for you to consider.

Also consider the size of the files you provide to them (can they do 8x10 prints? or just stuff for their facebook page, etc?) and if you plan on putting more post processing work into those specific files before sending them off.

Your value is entirely in the product you offer -- and at what price.

Cygnus Studios · February 11, 2009

catspaw wrote:

Is your profit from being hired and paid to TAKE the photos, or is your profit coming in when you SELL the photos?

This is perhaps the best principle to understand. If you are being paid for taking the photos, a small amount for prints is to be understood. I usually give a certain number of photos to the client as part of the pay for the job. I then offer additional prints or edited images on cd at a lower rate. Enough to cover materials as my time was already factored into the original price of the contract.

If you were at the event for personal reasons and took images that you would have taken anyways, then it is okay to charge a little less than normal. Especially if you believe that these initial images may lead to some paid work in the future. If these original shots were for your book or website with no thought on sales, I could see giving them away at a low price with the explanation that future shots will be under contract at your normal rates.

A few months ago I went to a small play that had some friends of mine performing. I did not go as a photographer, but snapped a few pics for my friends. The production company saw the images and wanted to know if they could buy a few.
I explained my normal fees for this type of work, and sold a few images from that night at a very discounted rate, with the understanding that future images would be at my normal rate.
Now I am the official photographer for this performing group with a contract for all 4 plays this year.

Sledhed · February 11, 2009

clemensphoto's wrote:

Sports photographers - I need some assistance.

I was approached tonight about burning a CD/DVD of picture for two sports events for a specific player. Since I take a large number of photos at sporting events it makes sense to do this.

How many pics of this one player do you have? Why not set a price for digital download and let them buy that way. Is sounds to me like you have already shot the games too and they are just looking for a discount.

clcoronios · February 11, 2009

It hadn't occurred to me that he might have been paid to shoot the event. If the person requesting the CD had paid for him to shoot the event, then a deep-discount CD might certainly be in order.

I read it as if someone wanted all his/her shots from two horse shows (my venue) on a CD (and that's another good point - if you're going to sell a CD - regardless of how many images - what size & res are they going to be?). And the poster suggesting 50 shots for $35.

Many of us equine photogs are discussing the advantages of getting SOMETHING for the bazillions of images residing on our hard drives (the theory being that SOMETHING is better than NOTHING) - but we're trying to be very cognizant of setting a dreadful, career/industry-ending precedent by pricing way low.

If the poster wants to do a CD and feels that the $25-35 price range is 'it' for his demographic, perhaps he could offer 10-15 images for personal web use only (and sized accordingly)?

When one of us gives stuff away, we devalue OUR worth - and make it that much more difficult for our colleagues.

Then again - I'm assuming that most of us here are professional photographers (full or part time)? If many are hobbyists, selling on the cheap, I don't even want to go there.....:bash

Carol

clcoronios · February 11, 2009

Cygnus - awesome example of how things SHOULD work! Great job - congrats!

Cygnus Studios wrote:

A few months ago I went to a small play that had some friends of mine performing. I did not go as a photographer, but snapped a few pics for my friends. The production company saw the images and wanted to know if they could buy a few.
I explained my normal fees for this type of work, and sold a few images from that night at a very discounted rate, with the understanding that future images would be at my normal rate.
Now I am the official photographer for this performing group with a contract for all 4 plays this year.

MJRPHOTO · February 11, 2009

clcoronios wrote:

It hadn't occurred to me that he might have been paid to shoot the event. If the person requesting the CD had paid for him to shoot the event, then a deep-discount CD might certainly be in order.

When one of us gives stuff away, we devalue OUR worth - and make it that much more difficult for our colleagues.

Then again - I'm assuming that most of us here are professional photographers (full or part time)? If many are hobbyists, selling on the cheap, I don't even want to go there.....:bash

Carol

Carol,
I like the way you think.
I get $50 per image for personal use only.
(10) Images for $250 from same event.

clcoronios · February 12, 2009

Thanks, Mike. It's an ongoing effort. It's hard enough with every Mom & Pop & Uncle Harry sporting their own digital, but when part-timers (and I am one - I'm fortunate to have a fulltime job with great benefits) treat their 'business' as 'spending money', it REALLY hurts those who make their living - or make a significant contribution to their expenses through their photography.

We equine photographers are VERY fortunate to have an organization and forum on which we can discuss business practices (even have marketing classes), as well as technical and general issues. We have a Pro membership and a General membership - and some internationally renowned photographers.

This is so different, because - even within "sports" there is SUCH a huge diversity in business practices, pricing and expectations. I'm going to be learning a lot!

Carol

pmbpro · February 14, 2009

MJRPHOTO wrote:

Carol,
I like the way you think.
I get $50 per image for personal use only.
(10) Images for $250 from same event.

Hi MJRPHOTO. Just wondering... Is this pricing for Web-sized files, or Hi-Res?

nipprdog · February 14, 2009

clemensphoto's wrote:

Sports photographers - I need some assistance.

I was approached tonight about burning a CD/DVD of picture for two sports events for a specific player. Since I take a large number of photos at sporting events it makes sense to do this.

My question is how many photos and approximatley how much. I live in a small community so a pricey disk would not go over very well. I thought about up to 50 picture the cost maybe $35 and then an additional $20 for the next 50 photo range.

Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

Since your giving away your 4x6s for $1, and your 5x7s for $2.50, you might as well give away your CDs.

clemensphoto's · February 15, 2009

Ann,

Thanks for the comments. Yes I have already shot the games (volleyball and basketball), the parent would like a disk of just her daughter and the pictures have already been PP. I'm taking in consideration that this is my first year charging for pictures and have been charging lower rates and then will be increasing my rates over the next two school years. Not sure if that is a great practice, but that way it is basically an introduction of my work/business.

So, would it be better to sell say 20-30 images for $35, or even higher given the above info?

clemensphoto's · February 15, 2009

Catspaw, you make a good point about what the parent wants to use the photos for, the mother wants to use them for a scrapebook (not that it really makes a difference). I'm not being contracted to take sports photos, I go to as many games that I can allowing parents to pick and choice from what I post on my website. This is the first parent to ask me for a CD, but I have a feeling that with the number of photos that I take per game others are more likely to ask for a CD instead of ordering individuals.

The size of the photos will be large enough for an 8x10 (sizes are from 400k to 800k).

As for the use I'll need to include a copyright statement as to how the pictures maybe used.

clemensphoto's · February 15, 2009

Jim,

I know most people might think that I am giving away my pictures at $1 for a 4x6 and $2 for a 5x7, however, my thinking for this is to introduce myself as a sports photog for the first year and then the pricing will go up for the next two school years. I'm not trying to devalue my work or the professtion, but getting your name out and making things affordable to people in a farming area really takes a great deal of effort. I as a parent paying for my kids team photos, I was very upset with the quality and the price for them and have been banging my head against the wall :bash about pricing in our area. The only other people that sell sports pictures (individual games) are the local newspapers, which only post a small number and not every player is photographed or posted on their websites where they are selling 4x6's for $4-$6.

clemensphoto's · February 15, 2009

I would like to thank everyone that has posted a comment to this posting.

Blaker · February 15, 2009

clemensphoto's wrote:

Jim,

I know most people might think that I am giving away my pictures at $1 for a 4x6 and $2 for a 5x7, however, my thinking for this is to introduce myself as a sports photog for the first year and then the pricing will go up for the next two school years. I'm not trying to devalue my work or the professtion, but getting your name out and making things affordable to people in a farming area really takes a great deal of effort.

The problem is that you ARE devaluing your work. The buyers will be used to paying $1 a photo, and then when your prices go up, they will find someone else to sell them photos for a buck.
How can you make any money at all charging this way when you figure the hours spent at the games , editing, post processing, materials, and getting the product to the customers?
No wonder people balk at paying normal market rates for photos!!!
I think you would get your name out there and garner more respect as a professional if you priced your photos and cd's more appropriately.
What value does your product have if you just give it away?

clcoronios · February 15, 2009

Hi -
You mentioned in response to Ann that all your images had already been post-processed. At least I'm guessing that's what PP meant. Do you PP all before putting them up as proofs? And I assume (yup, I know) from your comment that because you've PPd, there isn't much work involved in putting them on a CD, that you do more than straighten & crop (if necessary).

I understand that there's mixed thought about this - one being that you only want customers to see your best work and two being that's an AWFUL lot of time 'wasted' because of the number of images likely to be sold.

You answered 'intended use' as personal scrapbook, then said that your images were sized for 8x10. Most scrapbook pictures are no larger than 4x6. Maybe offer a 'scrapbook collection' of x number of images for $y - sized for 4x6?

My heart is in farming communities - I grew up in WAY upstate NY - considered one of the poorest agricultural areas in the country and full of family farms. So I understand the economy. And I tend to provide service to associations that I feel a bond with even if I barely break even doing so - but I'm trying to get tougher about this. Y'know, if I'm LOSING money, I really have to stop! My business is not intended to be non-profit.

clemensphoto's wrote:

Jim,

I know most people might think that I am giving away my pictures at $1 for a 4x6 and $2 for a 5x7, however, my thinking for this is to introduce myself as a sports photog for the first year and then the pricing will go up for the next two school years. I'm not trying to devalue my work or the professtion, but getting your name out and making things affordable to people in a farming area really takes a great deal of effort. I as a parent paying for my kids team photos, I was very upset with the quality and the price for them and have been banging my head against the wall :bash about pricing in our area. The only other people that sell sports pictures (individual games) are the local newspapers, which only post a small number and not every player is photographed or posted on their websites where they are selling 4x6's for $4-$6.

This is such a common starter mentality. Which is not to denigrate it. But as such, it's the mentality for the moment. Put this business plan (because that's what it is part of) in the center of a glass table. Walk around it. Look at it from all angles. Is it a plan that can grow? Or are you creating obstacles for yourself?

On the one hand, lowball pricing may get you some - or even a lot of - customers this year as you start out. But have you figured your break-even point?
What did your equipment cost?
(Assuming a given that you'd be going to the games anyway), did you get to enjoy watching your child play - or were you concentrating on taking pictures?
How much time did you spend PPing? Does that time have value? Would your family agree with you?
What does it cost you to have your photos printed?
If you take them to Walmart, what does it cost to get them there and pick them up?
How do you package them for delivery - and what does that cost?

Are you at your break-even point?

And what about your idea that you're starting low this year with intentions of raising prices as you grow (in experience)?

To start with, if you're good enough to sell your work, you're good enough to charge a reasonable price for it. And if you're not, you are digging yourself a hole that you will not get out of - because the foundation of your reputation starts when you show the first person the first picture that you are offering for sale.

So, if your work is good enough to sell, and keeping in mind the economy of your area, you need to find a reasonable price point for your work. No one can tell you what that is - we can only suggest. But I think a few of us are suggesting that yours are unreasonable on the low side.

So back to your intention of raising prices next year. You've established a price point - a perceived value for your work. Unfortunately, many customers really can't tell the difference between an OK snapshot and a really well done professional photo, providing the one isn't green, furry & tilted. So while YOU may see the difference and say "Wow - I've really improved, so now I'm going to double my prices," your customers are going to see is that what cost them $1 last year costs $2 this year - and think that you're gouging them.

Just a lot more to think about (of course, you may have already thought about all this - in which case....sorry for the 'lecture'). I don't have a dog in your fight, but I would like to see everyone who cares enough to be on these educational forums do the best they can.... and I used to teach and you know what they say about teachers.....

Carol

MJRPHOTO · February 15, 2009

pmbpro wrote:

Hi MJRPHOTO. Just wondering... Is this pricing for Web-sized files, or Hi-Res?

This is for high res images. 12x18 in size at 300 dpi.

Art Scott · February 15, 2009

clemensphoto's wrote:

Jim,

I know most people might think that I am giving away my pictures at $1 for a 4x6 and $2 for a 5x7, however, my thinking for this is to introduce myself as a sports photog for the first year and then the pricing will go up for the next two school years. I'm not trying to devalue my work or the professtion, but getting your name out and making things affordable to people in a farming area really takes a great deal of effort. I as a parent paying for my kids team photos, I was very upset with the quality and the price for them and have been banging my head against the wall :bash about pricing in our area. The only other people that sell sports pictures (individual games) are the local newspapers, which only post a small number and not every player is photographed or posted on their websites where they are selling 4x6's for $4-$6.

Does you real full time job pay you enuff wages that tomorrow morning you can walk into the nearest camera store and purchase a new camera to replace your 20D and that would be a 50D.....you should never replace with a lesser camera......for that matter can you walk in and replace your lenses with out getting sick to your stomach......if not then your prices are way too low......
the 1 &$2 pricing to get your name out there is only going to hurt you in the end.....it is during this gear up time that most photogs experience that sick in the feeling when out shooting a gig and the camera fails....BTW how many 20D's do you own......do you have a backup camera at all..........venturing into pro photography you need 2 bodies and at least a bsackup foryour most used lens......
When you start out low you sorta become known as a used car saleman type of photog or the Wal Mart type of photog and when you start increasing prices so you can make a living it will hurt you as you started out targeting the wrong clientele to begin with..........I will shoot for the poorest family around as I feel everyone deserves great wedding portraits or senior portraits or anniversary portraits......but they will pay.....even if I have to have them paint my house to barter some of it off........but everyone pays a fair and equiottable price..............

BTW.......25+ yrs ago I charged more for a 4x5 than a dollar and even a 3.5 x5 was more than a $1............

Do yourself a favor and raise your prices so you can at least save for a backup body and backup lenses.......

The local paper here charges way more than 4-6$ / 4x6....not sure exactly how much but I know 8x10's start out at $30

clemensphoto's · February 16, 2009

clcornios, Blaker, and Art;

Thanks for your candor about the pricing! I will most defiantly change my pricing.

Art - I currently only have the 20D which, I will be adding a 50D in about a week (thanks to a nice income tax refund). So I'll the 20D will become my backup camera.

clcornios - I end up spending about 30 minutes PPing per game/event (depending on the number of shots), the actual photos doesn't cost me anything since these are all handled totally through (

) SmugMug and thus there isn't any crappy Walmart photos.

So the only thing that it costs me in my time going to the games/events and PPing.

However, we seem to be getting off the initial issue about what is a good number of photos to put on a CD/DVD.

clcoronios · February 16, 2009

clemensphoto's wrote:

clcornios, Blaker, and Art;

Thanks for your candor about the pricing! I will most defiantly change my pricing.

clcoronios - I end up spending about 30 minutes PPing per game/event (depending on the number of shots),

30 minutes per game? Approximately how many photos do you take? And what do you do to PP? Do you cull? Just curious, as it ranges from resizing & putting copyright on (my proofing site does that for me) to cropping to straightening to color correction. I don't claim to be a PS whiz (more like a wus), but a one day outdoor show with about 500-800 shots takes me several hours to cull, perhaps some cropping, batch & run a couple quick actions (resizing & sharpening for web) and uploading.

the actual photos doesn't cost me anything since these are all handled totally through ( ) SmugMug

Doesn't SmugMug charge a commission?

However, we seem to be getting off the initial issue about what is a good number of photos to put on a CD/DVD.

Right you are... Sorry 'bout that. I think you have to coordinate # of images and price. In other words, you could offer 10 images, 25 images or 50 images, but the prices for each package would be different - which you already have figured out.

We don't offer 4x6s prints to our horseshow customers, but we did a wedding this summer and on the theory that most guests ordering would want scrapbook pictures, I offered 4x6s prints (or 4x5s if they cropped better that way) for $5/ with a quantity discount. 10% off for 5, 20% off 10, 50% off 25.

I also have a digital package for show customers - personal web & print usage (sized for 4x6), with discounts for 5, 10 & 20. If you'd like info on my pricing, PM me. I'll be happy to share in a less public area.

And are you going to allow them to select images from all the games you've done - or just one? Does SmugMug allow you to retain your proof galleries for an indeterminate amount of time or a set period? What if a parent wants an image from a gallery that's 'down'? Will you charge an archive fee?

And, since we're talking BUSINESS here, while an income tax return is a lovely 'present',

you probably shouldn't depend on that for equipment replacement. You are definitely NOT the only small photographer who DOES this. My BRAIN tells me my income should pay for my equipment. My pocketbook doesn't always agree. Which of course is the reason for the balancing act called pricing effectively. Oh to win the lottery!!!:ivar

C

MJRPHOTO · February 16, 2009

clemensphoto's wrote:

Sports photographers - I need some assistance.

I was approached tonight about burning a CD/DVD of picture for two sports events for a specific player. Since I take a large number of photos at sporting events it makes sense to do this.

My question is how many photos and approximatley how much. I live in a small community so a pricey disk would not go over very well. I thought about up to 50 picture the cost maybe $35 and then an additional $20 for the next 50 photo range.

Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

Here is my pricing list.

(1) 4 x 6 print - $ 15.00

(5) 4 x 6 print's - $ 45.00 from same event/day (no other discounts apply)

(10) 4 x 6 print's - $ 80.00 from same event/day (no other discounts apply)

(1) 5 x 7 print - $ 20.00

(5) 5 x 7 print's - $ 75.00 from same event/day (no other discounts apply)

(10) 5 x 7 print's - $120.00 from same event/day (no other discounts apply)

(1) 8 x 12 print - $30.00 unless noted otherwise

(1) 11 x 14 print - $40.00 unless noted otherwise

(1) 12 x 18 print - $50.00 unless noted otherwise

(1) 12 x 24 print - $75.00 unless noted otherwise

(1) 12 x 36 print - $100.00 unless noted otherwise

(1) 16 x 20 print - $100.00 unless noted otherwise

(1) 20 x 30 print - $120.00 unless noted otherwise

(1) 24 x 36 print - $150.00 unless noted otherwise

(1) Electronic image 8x12 at 300 dpi for personal use only $50.00 with free 4x6

(10) Electronic images 8x12 at 300 dpi for personal use only $250.00 with free 4x6 of each photo. From same event/day

(25) Electronic images 8x12 at 300 dpi for personal use only $400.00 with free 4x6 of each photo. From same event/day

(50) Electronic images 8x12 at 300 dpi for personal use only $500.00 with free 4x6 of each photo. From same event/day

(1) Electronic image 12x24 at 300 dpi for personal use only $65.00

(1) Electronic image 12x36 at 300 dpi for personal use only $90.00

Yes I do have some say my prices are to high but those are the people I do not want as clients.

If you need proof that I am selling photos look at my equipment list. All paid for from the sale of prints.

I am thinking of not selling single 4x6 and 5x7 all together. It is not worth the time to process an order for $15 or $20.

Number of sports photos on a disk & price

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