Text Question for Online useage...

Candid Arts · February 18, 2009

So my work, who paid me to photograph some recent, prior and current jobs, want to use some of my pictures on their website.

What kind of text should I attach that says all rights are reserved and copyrighted by me and my company. All useage is limited...etc... whatever. I don't know.

I've never been in this situation before, so don't know that text that should be set in place. Aside from the obvious links linking to my site.

The type of photography for this project is different than my normal photography, or what my business does. Would it be not acceptable to put links saying what my business actually does versus what my work paid me to photograph even though they are two completely different things?

Basically I advertise for weddings, and the like, and fine art photography. For my work, I documented custom high-end home theater installs from install, to final completion.

Any thoughts? They are much appreciated.

I'm at work now and we are going to be working on getting my photos on the site today.

Also, should I individually watermark (or signature, just a little ~~~ © 2009 Candid Arts Photography ~~~ in the bottom right hand corner) the images? Or just use the text (that I'm asking for help on) as coverage for that?

Thanks everyone.

Blaker · February 19, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

So my work, who paid me to photograph some recent, prior and current jobs, want to use some of my pictures on their website.

What kind of text should I attach that says all rights are reserved and copyrighted by me and my company. All useage is limited...etc... whatever. I don't know.

I guess that depends on what kind of usage you have agreed to with your company.
Were these photographs made in the course of your job on company time - as a 'work for hire' - which gives your company all rights to the photos?
Or did you license photos (for which you own the copyright) to your company? If so, what kind of usage did you license them for? Website only? Free download to clients? Brochures? For a month, a year, or forever? Will the photos be credited to you or to the company or not at all?

These are all things that you and your company need to discuss and come to an agreement on- and once you have reached an agreement with them for the type and length of usage, you can easily write up a simple contract to that effect.
( if you did this as a favor and don't really care what becomes of the photos, then never mind !)

In most cases, somewhere on the page , you might write something along the lines of:

c. 2009 John Doe
all rights reserved
may not be used without express written permission from the photographer

Of course, this will only keep the honest people from stealing your photos!!
Good luck!

Angelo · February 19, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

...© 2009 Candid Arts Photography...

That would only be valid if Candid Arts Photography is a corporation - a legal entity with rights of ownership. Otherwise it's meaningless.

If not incorporated, the only copyright holder with standing would be the photographer... © 2009 John Doe

ian408 · February 19, 2009

Candid Arts · February 19, 2009

Blaker wrote:

I guess that depends on what kind of usage you have agreed to with your company.
Were these photographs made in the course of your job on company time - as a 'work for hire' - which gives your company all rights to the photos?
Or did you license photos (for which you own the copyright) to your company? If so, what kind of usage did you license them for? Website only? Free download to clients? Brochures? For a month, a year, or forever? Will the photos be credited to you or to the company or not at all?

These are all things that you and your company need to discuss and come to an agreement on- and once you have reached an agreement with them for the type and length of usage, you can easily write up a simple contract to that effect.
( if you did this as a favor and don't really care what becomes of the photos, then never mind !)

In most cases, somewhere on the page , you might write something along the lines of:

c. 2009 John Doe
all rights reserved
may not be used without express written permission from the photographer

Of course, this will only keep the honest people from stealing your photos!!
Good luck!

Ok, well first off here's how it goes (went) down. I have a job with them, I'm a salesmen and installer for our products (home theater and security systems, i.e. not photogrpahy). I'm also a photographer, so, being employed by this company, they paid me to go to these various job sites on the clock to take photos to be used in soem photo books for showing future clients the work that we've done. No contracts, no useage liscences were involved. Just me being employed by them under my normal job description, but for this to take photos, as I'm a photographer. As these are fairly low-key jobs, and some of my first attempts, I don't really care what they do with them, as long as I get credit for taking them. We will be having some more high-profile jobs coming up where I would like to keep my rights to the photos. So by the responses thus far, I'm guess I am going to have to re-work how this process is done.

Angelo wrote:

That would only be valid if Candid Arts Photography is a corporation - a legal entity with rights of ownership. Otherwise it's meaningless.

If not incorporated, the only copyright holder with standing would be the photographer... © 2009 John Doe

Really? I did not know this. I thought since I took them, if I put the © symbol on my work, it's copyrighted to me (well my company). So you're saying that instead of putting © 2009 Candid Arts Photography I need to be putting © 2009 My Name?

ian408 wrote:

Assuming your employer paid you to take photographs as a part of your employment, the photographs belong to them. You might copyright the work with "(C)2009 XYZ Corp".

All my photographs belong to my employer as they paid me, working for them under my normal stipulations and job description, to take the photos? So in your example, the XYZ Corp. would by my companies name (i.e. the company I work for, not my Candid Arts Photography)?

So basically I have three options for the future:

1). I get paid by them as an employee to take photos, they own the photos and I just get my credit for taking them, but have no say in what is done with them, how often, where they are displayed, and can be compensated nothing for using them in other, new ways/places/formats.

2). They hire me, at my photography rate, separate from my job, to take photos. I retain all rights to my photos. I make a contract with them stating where they can use which photos, at what size, and for how long. At this point, in addition to the wage they already paid me to take the photos, do I charge them fees to actually go ahead and use them at this point, as the stipulations state in the contract? Or does that come with paying me the original wage? And do I then charge them an extra fee if they want to use them else where for long or different photos in the future?

OR 3). Due to the fact that I want to keep my job in this crucifibly messed up economy, I go take the pictures on my own time, not paid, tally up the hours I would have gotten paid, at the wage I would have gotten paid to be employed by them, write up a contract stating the whens, wheres, hows, etc... of them using which photos, and charge them how ever much it would have costs them to employ me to do it working under the current job. I still own the rights to the photos, they are paying me the same amount of money as they normally would have. They are happy, I'm more happy than I am now, but less happy had I got paid my photography wages and gone the route of #2.

Is this about correct? Roughly?

Thanks everyone for your help. Greatly information, kind of upsetting to a certain extent, but I suppose I gotta learn some way.

ian408 · February 19, 2009

For my example; yes. "XYZ" is the name of the company you work for.

You could probably get away with "(C)John Doe, XYZ Inc." as well. That gives you credit.

Candid Arts · March 1, 2009

Contract Question
So, with this thread as a reference, I need to write up a contract.

Basically I want it stating that I get to keep the rights to my photos. I work for a company who installs high end custom home theater. I'm an installer and salesmen. Since I'm also a photographer, they want me to photograph various jobs and things for portfolios. As it is now, how I understand it, by them paying me under my current job to take photos, they own the rights to the photos. They are paying me my normal pay, which isn't a whole lot, and quite a bit less than my photography wage. I've done some shooting for them already at my current pay, and wouldn't figure that asking for more money and keeping the rights to the photos at the same time would be a good idea. Assuming I want to keep my current job (which I really do) as well as keep shooting photos for them, but want to own the rights to the photos, what should I do?

Should I ask for more money for my photography? Should I have them "hire" me, or pay me outside of my current job, as a photographer to take the photographs? It seems that'd be a lot more complicated on their end for taxes and such, as well as my end, although I do need to start working it this way for future jobs. How should I proceed? I have some shooting for them coming up next week, and would like to have this in place by then.

Sample:
"I/we (insert name of company) hereby relinquish all rights to photos taken by Bryce Lewis of Candid Arts Photography to Bryce Lewis of Candid Arts Photography. I further agree that any use of these photos is not permitted with out express written permission from Bryce Lewis of Candid Arts Photography. I/we (insert name of company) agree to pay Bryce Lewis of Candid Arts Photography (insert dollar amount [should I just put my hourly wage now, or ask for my photography wage?]) per hour for the time it takes to photograph and edit the photos taken."

Now I know that this isn't near worded correctly, nor does it cover everything I need it to cover. The company I work for is a really easy going, cool, chill group of guys, so I don't think that there would really be any legal issues, but I just want something in place so that I own the rights to the photos.

Aside from this, I'd also like one (or put in the same contract if it's possible) stating the useage by them of the photos. I.e. online or in a portfolio, or for advertising purposes, with credits given to me (the photographer). Unlimited time useage unless otherwise stated by me. The company may not recieve a profit, claim ownership, or (anything else) from the photos. That kind of stuff.

Anyone with experience in this maybe throw up a quick one for me? I'd GREATLY appreciate it...

Angelo · March 1, 2009

I think you're approaching this from the wrong angle.

Don't ask them to relinquish rights they do not currently control. You're not hired as a photographer for the firm so it's not like this can fall under the "work for hire" definition.

Take the pictures, give them the copies you've agreed to give them and move on, keeping your files and copyright in tact and in your possession.

Candid Arts · March 1, 2009

Angelo wrote:

I think you're approaching this from the wrong angle.

Don't ask them to relinquish rights they do not currently control. You're not hired as a photographer for the firm so it's not like this can fall under the "work for hire" definition.

Take the pictures, give them the copies you've agreed to give them and move on, keeping your files and copyright in tact and in your possession.

Oh. I was under the assumption that they owned the rights to them. Well if this isn't the case, then I have nothing to worry about.

Thanks Angelo.

Angelo · March 1, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

Oh. I was under the assumption that they owned the rights to them. Well if this isn't the case, then I have nothing to worry about.

Thanks Angelo.

Have they intimated they expect you to relinquish rights?

Candid Arts · March 1, 2009

Angelo wrote:

Have they intimated they expect you to relinquish rights?

No not at all. That's just what someone said in the other thread that I referenced.

Angelo · March 1, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

No not at all. That's just what someone said in the other thread that I referenced.

well that's not exactly correct and having two different threads about the same topic is confusing amd messy so I will be combining them.

What Ian said was "if your company is paying you to take pictures they own them" (or something close to that)

under those circumstances he's correct. if you want to be more precise about the circumstances of the job we may be able to be more helpful.

Candid Arts · March 1, 2009

They are paying me to do my job. My job just happens to be at that point, taking pictures. it's like they are paying me to sell product, or install product, but I'm taking pictures.

Soo...do they own the pictures?

Angelo · March 1, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

Really? I did not know this. I thought since I took them, if I put the © symbol on my work, it's copyrighted to me (well my company). So you're saying that instead of putting © 2009 Candid Arts Photography I need to be putting © 2009 My Name?

What I said is:

"Unless Candid Arts Photography is incorporated it's useless to list the copyright that way"

If it is not incorporated it, Candid Arts Photography, has no standing to defend copyright or anything else as it is not a legal entity.

Candid Arts · March 1, 2009

Ok. I can just use my name then instead of Candid Arts Photography. Basically what I'm looking for is not having the company I work for own the photos, but rather I do. Not necessarily "Candid Arts Photography", but at least my name.

Angelo · March 1, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

They are paying me to do my job. My job just happens to be at that point, taking pictures. it's like they are paying me to sell product, or install product, but I'm taking pictures.

Soo...do they own the pictures?

If they are paying you for a fixed period of time, say 8 hours, and in that time they include the taking of photographs, then it could be easily argued this is a "work for hire" and they would own the images.

on the other hand - if 8 hours is typically the time usually allocated to do an installation and they are just squeezing you to do both the installation AND the photography it could be argued they have not compensated you fairly and would not necessarily own the rights.

all of this gets very complicated and messy especially when you combine an outside hobby or second career with your primary employment.

there's an old saying... "don't s*it where you eat"

if you don;t want to turn this into a big problem and jeopardize your job then just go with the flow, take the pictures and keep copies for yourself anyway. just know you can run into trouble if you try to resell the images for commercial use.

.

Angelo · March 1, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

Ok. I can just use my name then instead of Candid Arts Photography. Basically what I'm looking for is not having the company I work for own the photos, but rather I do. Not necessarily "Candid Arts Photography", but at least my name.

as far as this particular instance... how about you drop the language of copyright ownership and just ask your employer if they would add: "photos by John Doe" at each display?

Angelo · March 1, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

Ok. I can just use my name then instead of Candid Arts Photography. Basically what I'm looking for is not having the company I work for own the photos, but rather I do. Not necessarily "Candid Arts Photography", but at least my name.

correct. copyright can only be held by an individual or corporation

Candid Arts · March 1, 2009

Alright then. They have no problem giving me credit for the photos. So that's fine. So I'll just use the copyright, or ownership of Bryce Lewis then.

So it doesn't sound like then if I want to use the photos in a fashion outside of this job that I could use them for profit. Correct?

Angelo · March 1, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

Alright then. They have no problem giving me credit for the photos. So that's fine. So I'll just use the copyright, or ownership of Bryce Lewis then.

So it doesn't sound like then if I want to use the photos in a fashion outside of this job that I could use them for profit. Correct?

profit is not the defining issue here.

as with any image you take you can print and sell as many copies as you'd like as "pieces of art"

in this instance you can certainly use the images as part of your career portfolio, showing off the quality of home theater installations you do.

beyond that you run into myriad problems:

a) your employer's concerns about the ownership of the images

b) you could never sell the images for the purposes of advertisement or marketing without:
1) permission of your employer
2) permission of the homeowner (it's their equipment afterall)
3) permission of the equipment manufacturers

.

Candid Arts · March 1, 2009

Angelo wrote:

profit is not the defining issue here.

as with any image you take you can print and sell as many copies as you'd like as "pieces of art"

in this instance you can certainly use the images as part of your career portfolio, showing off the quality of home theater installations you do.

beyond that you run into myriad problems:

a) your employer's concerns about the ownership of the images

b) you could never sell the images for the purposes of advertisement or marketing without:
1) permission of your employer
2) permission of the homeowner (it's their equipment afterall)
3) permission of the equipment manufacturers

.

Got it. I suppose that solves it. They'll mainly be for my portfolio, unless we start getting into some of our bigger clients, nationally and internationally known architecture firms, etc... Then I might be doing more with it. But I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. For now, and for what I'm doing, I think I just need to keep on the trail I'm on.

Thanks Angelo for your help. Much appreciated.

Blaker · March 1, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

Got it. I suppose that solves it. They'll mainly be for my portfolio, unless we start getting into some of our bigger clients, nationally and internationally known architecture firms, etc... Then I might be doing more with it. But I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. For now, and for what I'm doing, I think I just need to keep on the trail I'm on.

Thanks Angelo for your help. Much appreciated.

I think that you need to sit down with whomever is paying you to take the photographs and find out what their expectations are, and let them know what your expectations are, and go from there.
If you can't come to some sort of an agreement regarding copyright ownership, usage, payment, etc then better to find that out upfront rather than run into problems after you've taken the photos.
If you do come to an agreement on the above, then take notes during your meeting, and then write up a contract outlining what you've agreed upon, and both of you sign it.

THe people here on this forum who are giving you advice ( including myself) cannot speak for your boss or assume to know what he wants out of this, so our advice to you is limited to what we are assuming about the situation.
If you don't get this sorted out now, before you are in too deep, I can guarantee you there will be misunderstandings about usage/payment/credit etc that will lead to an uncomfortable work environment between you and your boss.

Do yourself a favor and request a meeting with your boss asap so you can both figure out how this is going to work.

As for the company being 'cool and chill', that may be the case now, but if it gets sold, or you get a new CEO, and if it is determined that the photos were all taken under a WFH, then the photos are an assett of the company, and as such the new owners will have full control of them, and may not be as 'cool and chill' as the present company.

Blaker · March 1, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

Oh. I was under the assumption that they owned the rights to them. Well if this isn't the case, then I have nothing to worry about.

Thanks Angelo.

Without a contract in place, if there is a dispute about the photos, it would be pretty easy for your company to claim WFH since you took the photos during work hours as a job assigned by your boss.
You need to stop assuming things and TALK TO YOUR BOSS!!!!
If you want to retain rights to your photos, if you want to charge market rates for your photography, if you want to limit their usage, then TALK TO YOUR BOSS and get it in writing!!!!!!
Without a contract in place you have *everything* to worry about!!

Angelo · March 1, 2009

good luck

.

ian408 · March 1, 2009

Sorry for not chiming in earlier. I've been kind of busy with my real job lately

Often times and especially in the tech industry, employees sign agreements. Including non-disclosure, assignments of invention and so on. Until you know whether any of those agreements are in force, it's difficult to say what the correct answer is for your question.

If you want to know for sure, contact an attorney who is familiar with both copyright and employment law.

Angelo · March 1, 2009

ian408 wrote:

If you want to know for sure, contact an attorney who is familiar with both copyright and employment law.

Bryce, this may be helpful too: http://www.photoshopusertv.com/?p=301

.

Candid Arts · March 4, 2009

Excellent link. Very informative. Thank you. In the video, they mentioned going online and getting your photos copyrighted. Do you happen to know the link to that site they were talking about and if there is a cost?

When you said earlier though that you have to either be an individual or cooperation to copyright a photo, could I use the "individual" with the addition of my business name? EX: ©2009 Bryce Lewis - Candid Arts Photography? Or would it just have to by my name?

Angelo · March 4, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

Excellent link. Very informative. Thank you. In the video, they mentioned going online and getting your photos copyrighted. Do you happen to know the link to that site they were talking about and if there is a cost?

When you said earlier though that you have to either be an individual or cooperation to copyright a photo, could I use the "individual" with the addition of my business name? EX: ©2009 Bryce Lewis - Candid Arts Photography? Or would it just have to by my name?

I don't know but go to the "Photog's Resources" sticky at the top of the forum and see all the links there for additional help

Blaker · March 4, 2009

Candid Arts wrote:

Excellent link. Very informative. Thank you. In the video, they mentioned going online and getting your photos copyrighted. Do you happen to know the link to that site they were talking about and if there is a cost?

Your photo is copyrighted the moment you take it. However, in order to protect that copyright and sue for damages should your copyright be violated, you must register your photographs with the US copyright office in the Library of Congress.
I think the fee is $45 per batch- you can mail contact sheets , send cd's, or send digital files on line- however they have rules regarding size and resolution of what is sent.

Read the following government publication- it goes over the basics of copyright and registration and tells how to submit your photos and how much it will cost.

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf

Text Question for Online useage...

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