Lighting ?

ttbest · March 27, 2009

Hi-I just started taking pictures last summer and have now added some studio lights to a vacant office at my husbands work. I currently have two B800 alien bees and a large (6') reflector that my husband constructed me out of doublewall corrugated and an emergency blanket. I am wondering if I need to add a hair light and/or a backdrop light. Not sure what to add. Alienbees has a lot of different options but I am not opposed to adding a different brand if it's more applicable. I've attached a shot from my studio and any info. would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

Art Scott · March 27, 2009

I would shy away from buying into different brands just to keep set ups simple and if you venture into location shooting or weddings it is easier to be able to just grab a light and go rather than having to look for another key light and so on.....all except for a hair light.....that could ven be a shoe mount strobe with a home made snoot on it.
My mentor (the famous glamour / playboy photographer Peter Gowland) emphasised keeping all the lights the same brand and model especially for beginners to help keep mstakes down if a fixture went Kpoot, then you can just grab another and go if you have different brands then you have to get into lighting ratios (more so) because the new light is not the same as the others....with alll the lights the same if the one that died was set at 30% then all you need to do is replace with new light and set it at 30%......also there may come a time when you need all of your lights as key lights spread across a large commerical product shoot (a Hummer Limo) and having them all the same will definitely be the easiest way to work in this type of situation.......this could aslo be a shoot in a very large church sanctuary....there are endless possibilities.

Again a hair light would have helpped the above photo a little and it can be as I said just a shoe mount flash with homemade snoot or any real inexpensive strobe (Britek) .......

ttbest · March 27, 2009

Lighting
Thank you Art for all the feedback. I have a Canon 5D now and a Canon Speedlite. Is that what you're referring to when you say shoe mount? Not sure what a home made snoot is though. Can you expand?

Art Scott wrote:

I would shy away from buying into different brands just to keep set ups simple and if you venture into location shooting or weddings it is easier to be able to just grab a light and go rather than having to look for another key light and so on.....all except for a hair light.....that could ven be a shoe mount strobe with a home made snoot on it.
My mentor (the famous glamour / playboy photographer Peter Gowland) emphasised keeping all the lights the same brand and model especially for beginners to help keep mstakes down if a fixture went Kpoot, then you can just grab another and go if you have different brands then you have to get into lighting ratios (more so) because the new light is not the same as the others....with alll the lights the same if the one that died was set at 30% then all you need to do is replace with new light and set it at 30%......also there may come a time when you need all of your lights as key lights spread across a large commerical product shoot (a Hummer Limo) and having them all the same will definitely be the easiest way to work in this type of situation.......this could aslo be a shoot in a very large church sanctuary....there are endless possibilities.

Again a hair light would have helpped the above photo a little and it can be as I said just a shoe mount flash with homemade snoot or any real inexpensive strobe (Britek) .......

Tim Kamppinen · March 31, 2009

ttbest wrote:

Thank you Art for all the feedback. I have a Canon 5D now and a Canon Speedlite. Is that what you're referring to when you say shoe mount? Not sure what a home made snoot is though. Can you expand?

The speedlite is what he meant. A snoot is a tube that you put over the flash so that the light just goes in one small circle, in this case aimed at the hair. You can make a snoot out of a cardboard cereal box or whatever other material you have lying around and it will work just as well as anything that you might buy for the task. You will need a way to trigger the speedlite along with your AB800's though. If it has an optical slave mode, that would work, or you could buy an optical slave and attach it to the flash... that way it will fire when it "sees" the alienbees fire. How are you triggering them? If you're using cybersyncs you could just get another cybersync receiver and use it with the flash, although that would be more expensive (but more versitile as well, because the light from your other strobes wouldn't have to reach the speedlite).

ttbest · April 10, 2009

Lighting
Sorry for the delay in response. I have a cord that hooks my camera to one of the alienbees. I now have purchased a light meter (Sekonic L-358) but obviously need to buy a pocket wizard or something. Is that the same as the cybersync that you are referring to? I'm hoping to get a transmitter that will trigger the light meter as well as the alien bees. I still need a hair light. I'm researching if I can just add some sort of accessory to my second B800 to make it a hair light? I think that is what you are referring to when you're talking about making a home made attachment. ANy info. is greatly appreciated! Thank you!

Tim Kamppinen wrote:

The speedlite is what he meant. A snoot is a tube that you put over the flash so that the light just goes in one small circle, in this case aimed at the hair. You can make a snoot out of a cardboard cereal box or whatever other material you have lying around and it will work just as well as anything that you might buy for the task. You will need a way to trigger the speedlite along with your AB800's though. If it has an optical slave mode, that would work, or you could buy an optical slave and attach it to the flash... that way it will fire when it "sees" the alienbees fire. How are you triggering them? If you're using cybersyncs you could just get another cybersync receiver and use it with the flash, although that would be more expensive (but more versitile as well, because the light from your other strobes wouldn't have to reach the speedlite).

Tim Kamppinen · April 11, 2009

Cybersyncs are radio triggers that are produced by Paul C. Buff, the same guy who makes alienbees. They do the same thing as pocket wizards but they're quite a bit cheaper. Even cheaper than that are the "ebay triggers" that you can get for $30 or so, but they won't be 100% reliable. I have three of them that work just fine 95% of the time (the other 5% is where one or more of them fails to go off or one of them fires randomly on its own... for what I shoot it has never been much of a problem. I just take another shot.) For the money they're a great value... that said, other people will tell you all about how they curse the day they purchased them and how they are total junk and never work. So your mileage may vary.

The homemade snoots work very well for speedlites. All they do is restrict the light to a small area which keeps it just where you want it (such as on the subject's hair) and also prevents lens flare from the light spilling forward towards the camera. I don't know about making one for the alienbees... I don't know how hot they get when they fire, but you can see how strapping cardboard to it might be a bad idea if they heat up quite a bit. You can buy specially made grids for the aliebees units from their website. These do the same thing, restrict the light, but they obviously will cost a lot more than something you can make yourself. If you went with a speedlite for the hair light, you would have more options with the two alienbees such as one for fill and one for main, one for backround and one for main, one high and one low for clamshell lighting, etc.

Art Scott · April 11, 2009

ttbest wrote:

Is that the same as the cybersync that you are referring to?
It is similar.....until you are making profits I suggest you go with this trigger system RD616 Radio Frequency flash trigger, it is a 16 channel transmitter and receiver and they work great, I have no regrets of buying the 3 transmitters and 5 receivers that I have ( i bought 1 first and then bought a set of 1 transmitter and 2 receivers (twice, as money allowed) so I can run all 5 of my studio lights out on location without interference from other flashes going off.....this is the exact same one I bought and the same resellar also...........(The transmitter is numbered as RF616 & the receiver is numbered as RD616....just to clairify )

I'm hoping to get a transmitter that will trigger the light meter as well as the alien bees.
with the above set(s) I have one mounted to my sekonic L-558 and it works like a gem..........

I still need a hair light.
Either make a simple shoot out of poster board and toilet paper tube or paper towel tube and paint it black inside and out.....make to fit either you speedlite or one of the alien bees......you can lso buy a snoot from Alien Bees (Paul Buff inc)....until money is coming in tho I would just make one....poster board can be purcahsed in black so no need to paint the main body.....just the snoot tube.

I'm researching if I can just add some sort of accessory to my second B800 to make it a hair light?

See Above

I think that is what you are referring to when you're talking about making a home made attachment.

Correct

ANy info. is greatly appreciated! Thank you!

see abover in a BOLD

ttbest · April 11, 2009

Lighting
Really good information Tim. Thank you.

I might be asking a really dumb question but is a speedlite a certain brand or is it a light everyone makes? I keep asking questions, because there are sooo many different lights and systems. I don't mind spending the money but I want to make a good purchase.

Tim Kamppinen wrote:

Cybersyncs are radio triggers that are produced by Paul C. Buff, the same guy who makes alienbees. They do the same thing as pocket wizards but they're quite a bit cheaper. Even cheaper than that are the "ebay triggers" that you can get for $30 or so, but they won't be 100% reliable. I have three of them that work just fine 95% of the time (the other 5% is where one or more of them fails to go off or one of them fires randomly on its own... for what I shoot it has never been much of a problem. I just take another shot.) For the money they're a great value... that said, other people will tell you all about how they curse the day they purchased them and how they are total junk and never work. So your mileage may vary.

The homemade snoots work very well for speedlites. All they do is restrict the light to a small area which keeps it just where you want it (such as on the subject's hair) and also prevents lens flare from the light spilling forward towards the camera. I don't know about making one for the alienbees... I don't know how hot they get when they fire, but you can see how strapping cardboard to it might be a bad idea if they heat up quite a bit. You can buy specially made grids for the aliebees units from their website. These do the same thing, restrict the light, but they obviously will cost a lot more than something you can make yourself. If you went with a speedlite for the hair light, you would have more options with the two alienbees such as one for fill and one for main, one for backround and one for main, one high and one low for clamshell lighting, etc.

ttbest · April 11, 2009

Lighting
Yes, I know that my speedlite is my Canon flash. With all this lighting discussion, I feel as if I'm losing my mind!!!

Tim Kamppinen wrote:

Cybersyncs are radio triggers that are produced by Paul C. Buff, the same guy who makes alienbees. They do the same thing as pocket wizards but they're quite a bit cheaper. Even cheaper than that are the "ebay triggers" that you can get for $30 or so, but they won't be 100% reliable. I have three of them that work just fine 95% of the time (the other 5% is where one or more of them fails to go off or one of them fires randomly on its own... for what I shoot it has never been much of a problem. I just take another shot.) For the money they're a great value... that said, other people will tell you all about how they curse the day they purchased them and how they are total junk and never work. So your mileage may vary.

The homemade snoots work very well for speedlites. All they do is restrict the light to a small area which keeps it just where you want it (such as on the subject's hair) and also prevents lens flare from the light spilling forward towards the camera. I don't know about making one for the alienbees... I don't know how hot they get when they fire, but you can see how strapping cardboard to it might be a bad idea if they heat up quite a bit. You can buy specially made grids for the aliebees units from their website. These do the same thing, restrict the light, but they obviously will cost a lot more than something you can make yourself. If you went with a speedlite for the hair light, you would have more options with the two alienbees such as one for fill and one for main, one for backround and one for main, one high and one low for clamshell lighting, etc.

ttbest · April 11, 2009

Lighting
Art,
How do you get the speedlite(with the homemade snoot) to stand alone? I would have to have a trigger for that, right? Right now, I have a cord going from my camera (hotshoe) to the key alienbee and that bee triggers the second bee.

Art Scott wrote:

see abover in a BOLD

Art Scott · April 11, 2009

ttbest wrote:

Art,
How do you get the speedlite(with the homemade snoot) to stand alone? I would have to have a trigger for that, right? Right now, I have a cord going from my camera (hotshoe) to the key alienbee and that bee triggers the second bee.

using the RD/RF616 set....that gets rid of all the sync cables......and also one of these for each spedliight

As i said above Ihave 3 transmitters and 5 recievers....all in all I have approx $85 in wireless remote flash triggers.........but a set of1 each will get you started....

does your speed light have a pc socket on it???

If not then you will need one of these to connect the receiver to your speedlight.

Snowgirl · April 11, 2009

I bought the e-bay version of trigger (shoe mount) and receiver for my Canon 580EX. Now I think I'm getting senile or something, but I can't find any way to plug the receiver into my flash. None of the ports match either of the plugs provided and the cryptic instructions talk about plugging into one's computer???????????

How do I do this or what kind of adapter do i need to make it work??

Snowgirl · April 11, 2009

'nother question...

I tried using shop lights on my muslin backdrop. Big mistake. Very yellow light. Is it possible to buy bulbs for shop lights that have 'white' light - does anyone know?

Thanks,

divamum · April 11, 2009

Snowgirl wrote:

'nother question...

I tried using shop lights on my muslin backdrop. Big mistake. Very yellow light. Is it possible to buy bulbs for shop lights that have 'white' light - does anyone know?

Thanks,

The daylight-balanced fluorescents are pretty good - it's not 100% the same as flash, but it definitely is closer than the average incandescent.

Also, you can get gels which will adjust the colour of your flash to match the lights - then when you process, you can get a unified WB and presto! It looks teh way it's supposed to. Jeffreaux has written a bunch of helpful stuff on CTB and CTO gels and how to use them - search and you should find a few threads and posts.

Art Scott · April 11, 2009

Snowgirl wrote:

'nother question...

I tried using shop lights on my muslin backdrop. Big mistake. Very yellow light. Is it possible to buy bulbs for shop lights that have 'white' light - does anyone know?

Thanks,

If you are using the 500 watt lights simple answer is NO....Halogen usually puts out a blue light....light blue....want color are your walls ans ceiling??

Clamp on shop work lights (wally world 6.88 to 10.99) then you can order photo bulbs in 5600K.....they are expesnsive and do not last for a longtime....shprter life than house hold lamp......I do believe there are now true daylight (5600K) spiral CFL's just now sure where to acquire.......google that one.......

Theatrical gels might work on the "shop" lights.....but besdure to tell the retailer your using haolgen shop lights.....if that is waht they are...if they are tube flourescent lights then gels or buy ones designated as "daylight balanced"................

Art Scott · April 11, 2009

Snowgirl wrote:

I bought the e-bay version of trigger (shoe mount) and receiver for my Canon 580EX. Now I think I'm getting senile or something, but I can't find any way to plug the receiver into my flash. None of the ports match either of the plugs provided and the cryptic instructions talk about plugging into one's computer???????????

How do I do this or what kind of adapter do i need to make it work??

I believe we have already discerned that you do not have a "PC" connector on the bottom of your flash......you may have a connector for an "OFF CAMERA CABLE" (in your instruction book under accessories should be designated as an OCC#########).....too many pins to work so what you need cost(s) between $5 and 10.....this one is mid priced and should last many years....it is a hotshoe adapter........this little jewel is truly handy to have...If you look at the picture you can see the "PC" connector that is missing from your flash (and possibly your camera)the reason is to keep us from plugging in a flash that can damage your camera wit h the trigger voltage backfire.....

so Wein came up with the safe sync line:
Wein makes several models called safe syncs....they range in price from $50 to 70 dependiong on retailer.

Don Kondra · April 11, 2009

Art Scott wrote:

If you are using the 500 watt lights simple answer is NO....Halogen usually puts out a blue light....light blue....want color are your walls ans ceiling??

I'm sorry I didn't save the link but I did find blue tinted quartz bulbs from a supplier in Australia, they promised a "white" light

Clamp on shop work lights (wally world 6.88 to 10.99) then you can order photo bulbs in 5600K.....they are expesnsive and do not last for a longtime....shprter life than house hold lamp......I do believe there are now true daylight (5600K) spiral CFL's just now sure where to acquire.......google that one.......

The photo bulbs are expensive, I think I paid $24 for 2 500w/5300k and they are rated for 6 hours AND as they age the color changes, sigh...

A great supplier for CF 5500k bulbs is Alzo Digital.

Cheers, Don

Art Scott · April 11, 2009

Don Kondra wrote:

I'm sorry I didn't save the link but I did find blue tinted quartz bulbs from a supplier in Australia, they promised a "white" light

The photo bulbs are expensive, I think I paid $24 for 2 500w/5300k and they are rated for 6 hours AND as they age the color changes, sigh...

A great supplier for CF 5500k bulbs is Alzo Digital.

Cheers, Don

YEAH continious lights just suck to me.....I have some regular 500watt halogens that actually gave off a nice light blue cast.....but then the replacements I bought were ugly yellow as was experienced by poster above.....

I really try to get people to try the Vivitar 285HV's with RF triggers I linked to above or if you want ttl from camera then the upper Sigma flashes are good and talk to both Nikon and canon bodies and other flashes.....so one can set up speedlites to work well in a studio or location......myself when I have a couple of hundred dollars to spend on auxilliary lighting I ebay for Sunpak 622's and used Quantum Battery 1's and if need be take them to All Pak Battery to be rebuilt for $25 and then they are good for 3-5yrs....as long as they donot just sit idle or I forget to keep them on the charger for maintaince ...........

Don Kondra · April 11, 2009

Art Scott wrote:

YEAH continious lights just suck to me.....

Whoa now, hold your horsies

I agree the work lights suck, they are Hot and yellow but I spent quite a bit of time working with the Compact Fluorescent Light bulbs (5500k) from Alzo Digital and developed a system that worked quite well for product shots.

This is a piece by Jamie Russell...

The only real problem with them is the slow shutter speeds necessary.

Still, they are an inexpensive alternative to speedlights which I have an unfounded aversion to

I bought two - four head 16" reflectors with stands and installed 85w CF bulbs for a total of 1200w/head. Then I built softboxs out of foam core and added rip stop nylon diffusers. Cost ~ $400.

I have moved on to Alien Bees strobes but in certain situations the CF lights still come in handy..

A sculpture I made at a glass blowing workshop...

Cheers, Don

Art Scott · April 11, 2009

Don Kondra wrote:

Whoa now, hold your horsies

I agree the work lights suck, they are Hot and yellow but I spent quite a bit of time working with the Compact Fluorescent Light bulbs (5500k) from Alzo Digital and developed a system that worked quite well for product shots.

The only real problem with them is the slow shutter speeds necessary.

Still, they are an inexpensive alternative to speedlights which I have an unfounded aversion to

I bought two - four head 16" reflectors with stands and installed 85w CF bulbs for a total of 1200w/head. Then I built softboxs out of foam core and added rip stop nylon diffusers. Cost ~ $400.

I have moved on to Alien Bees strobes but in certain situations the CF lights still come in handy..

Cheers, Don

See they suck.....slow shutter speeds

rofl.....those looked real nice...but then

YOU'RE a MASTER WOODWORKER

bow

.....DUDE YOUR SKILLED

bow

IN THE ART OF MAKING STUFF

bow

.....most of us are not.....and the ones looking for info are actually needing the speed of strobes and the white balance of strobes for shooting peoples not products.........

BTW the photos were real well done......gonna haft see if I can find any articles by you in the woddworking mags down here........

Don Kondra · April 12, 2009

Thanks very much Art,

Please note that the carved turtle box is made by Jamie Russell, a local internationally recognized woodworker who just happens to have a show of his work currently running in The Mendel Art Gallery.

The glass sculpture is mine, a piece I made at a hot glass workshop

Cheers, Don

Snowgirl · April 12, 2009

Art Scott wrote:

I believe we have already discerned that you do not have a "PC" connector on the bottom of your flash......you may have a connector for an "OFF CAMERA CABLE" (in your instruction book under accessories should be designated as an OCC#########).....too many pins to work so what you need cost(s) between $5 and 10.....this one is mid priced and should last many years....it is a hotshoe adapter........this little jewel is truly handy to have...If you look at the picture you can see the "PC" connector that is missing from your flash (and possibly your camera)the reason is to keep us from plugging in a flash that can damage your camera wit h the trigger voltage backfire.....

so Wein came up with the safe sync line:
Wein makes several models called safe syncs....they range in price from $50 to 70 dependiong on retailer.

Thanks. Yes, my flash does have a connector for an off camera cable but, as has been discussed, the concept is to get more distance and no wires

I'm ordering that lovely little $7.95 (plus exchange, duty and shipping) adapter and that should solve my problem. Thank you.

Art Scott · April 12, 2009

Snowgirl wrote:

Thanks. Yes, my flash does have a connector for an off camera cable but, as has been discussed, the concept is to get more distance and no wires

I'm ordering that lovely little $7.95 (plus exchange, duty and shipping) adapter and that should solve my problem. Thank you.

Well if we can be of any further assistance...you know where to find us:D
Glad to help

Tim Kamppinen · April 12, 2009

Just a note on using worklights for product shots, etc: You can take care of the yellow color cast by switching your white balance to tungsten on your camera. If that doesn't quite do it, just do a custom white balance. Problem solved.

That said, I've never worked with them and they do seem like they'd be a PITA.

Art Scott · April 12, 2009

Tim Kamppinen wrote:

Just a note on using worklights for product shots, etc: You can take care of the yellow color cast by switching your white balance to tungsten on your camera. If that doesn't quite do it, just do a custom white balance. Problem solved.

That said, I've never worked with them and they do seem like they'd be a PITA.

Great at hallowe'en for GHOUL LIGHTING tho........

raptorcaptor · April 18, 2009

Tim Kamppinen wrote:

Just a note on using worklights for product shots, etc: You can take care of the yellow color cast by switching your white balance to tungsten on your camera. If that doesn't quite do it, just do a custom white balance. Problem solved.

That said, I've never worked with them and they do seem like they'd be a PITA.

Also add color correcting gels to your strobes!

Don Kondra · April 18, 2009

raptorcaptor wrote:

Also add color correcting gels to your strobes!

May I ask what brand strobes you are using that would need color correcting gels?

Cheers, Don

raptorcaptor · April 19, 2009

Don Kondra wrote:

May I ask what brand strobes you are using that would need color correcting gels?

Cheers, Don

Only if you are mixing the strobes with work lights (tungsten). I may be mistaken but I thought the photographer was mixing strobe with shoplights!

Don Kondra · April 19, 2009

raptorcaptor wrote:

Only if you are mixing the strobes with work lights (tungsten). I may be mistaken but I thought the photographer was mixing strobe with shoplights!

No, Snowgirl asked about work lights half way through the thread, the OP was asking about adding a hair light to her two existing Alien Bees strobes.... and then. Well, the thread has wandered quite a bit

Cheers, Don

Don Kondra · April 19, 2009

ttbest wrote:

I am wondering if I need to add a hair light and/or a backdrop light.

Hi Tanya,

A little late with this but....

A hair light is definitely handy, I would suggest you purchase another Alien Bees B800 and either make a snoot to fit the 7" reflector it comes with or consider buying their snoot or the barn doors. Either are in the $50 range and will help you focus the light just on the hair.

But first try turning down the power on the light camera left a little and moving the camera right light back slightly behind the subject and about six feet high. This is where the barn doors would be handy.

And I hate to tease you but have a look at their softboxes, they are definitely worth the investment. If you are using them mainly for portraiture I would recommend the octabox over the softbox, they will give you a more natural shape highlight in the eyes.

HTH,

Cheers, Don

Lighting ?

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