What do parents really want?

Tman · June 9, 2009

First thanks in advance for any responses. I am looking to start a page and hopefully sell action photos of kids playing sports. My first look at the different options in my area shows most doing this, are selling the actual print outs. Most of the parents that I would be selling to are probably somewhat sophisticated when it comes to downloading an image or sending a pic to grandma. This could be a BIG assumption on my part. My question is would it not make more sense just to sell the high resolution digital image to the parents for download? Any suggestions on what one should charge? I use some basic tools to clean up, adjust color/balance, crop.

termina3 · June 9, 2009

I don't see what the first part of your post has to do with your question. Please clarify.

I never sell high-res digital copies online. If you want to, price with the realization that you'll never sell a print for that photo to that customer; so don't make a high-res download the same price as a 5x7. I wouldn't charge less than $20 each, but again, I sell prints and lo-res downloads.

johng · June 9, 2009

Tman,

There is no single correct answer.
If you're going to start a business, you need to start at the basics:

What are your goals? When establishing goals, they should be SMART goals:

Specific
Measurable
Attainable
Realistic
Time Based

In your goals you need to establish how much time you want to invest, how much income you want to generate from the business. If your entire business is event-sports related then convert that income figure into an hourly rate based on the amount of time you want to invest. Then, let's say your time commitment for an event is 5 hours including transportation, shooting, editing etc. With your hourly rate in mind you know how much revenue you want to generate from that event to reach your financial goals.

If you don't do things with both time and money as part of your planning you may find it takes far more time than you're willing to put in to reach your financial goals.

Make sure when you figure out your hourly rate you're including all your costs:
Pro smugmug membership
Insurance (if you're selling then standard insurance will not cover your gear)
Marketing costs
Equipment costs - upgrades and saving for replacements
Transportation
% smugmug takes of your profits
Taxes
WAGE - beyond all the overhead above, do you want some exta $$ for your pocket?

Armed with the money you need/want to make and the number of hours you're willing to put in and the number of events per month that equates to (and the time per event - this obviously is different by sport/event type) you know how much you need to make per event. If all you are selling is digital downloads you have to set your prices according to how much you expect to sell. FWIW, I would say unless you are producing top-notch pro grade images $20-25 is probably the max you're going to be able to charge per image. And depending on your market and your own abilities you may have to charge a lot less. But going through the above exercise will help you figure out if digital downloads are going to meet your needs.

I will say this - shooting on spec (speculation) - which is what this type of thing is called - for youth sports is a very difficult thing to make good money at. The toughest competition out there is parents with DSLRs who give their photos away. You have to produce photos SIGNIFICANTLY better than those parents to get people to pay. Otherwise, the free photos will be 'good enough' and a team with such parents simply won't be profitable enough to shoot.

The other thing the exercise will do for you is help you identify all the costs built in. If you simply look at the check in hand so to speak and say "wow I made $50 off that game" you might think that's great. Until you factor in you made ZERO off 2 other games - total of 10 hours of your time, and you're saving up for the next $1500 camera investment and have to put money towards the smugmug membersip. So, with 4 weeks of such activity you've made $200 - smugmug takes 15% - now you're down to $170. You owe uncle sam 26% of that (now you're down to $126). Projected yearly income of 126x12 = $1512. minus $150 for smugmug minus $450 for insurance (remember homeowners doesn't cover business use) minus $100 for cheapest marketing - flyers, cards, etc. That's $812 profit. Still not enough to buy that lens / camera upgrade. And, according to our example you put 10 hours of work a week in x 52 weeks = 520 hours. That's $1.56 per hour (after taxes) in wages.

Why do I say this? Because it's tough to make worthwhile money doing sports shooting. You have to overcome all those parents with cameras taking free pictures and any other pros in the area. And, equipment costs are high. And if you don't want to pay for proper insurance you have to take the risk that if your equipment gets broken you either pay out of pocket or commit insurance fraud by claiming it was damaged during non-professional use.

Good luck in your planning process!

Tman · June 9, 2009

Tman · June 9, 2009

Little vague on the title….sorry. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
The question is, I see many people selling their images in both print and digital formats. Would parents/families purchasing pictures of their kids at athletic events prefer to have a digital/original download so that they could keep it and make whatever reproductions they want? Provided they understand the basics of doing this.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
And if they do, what might be a fare price for this service? Again highest quality of download.<o:p></o:p>

JohnBiggs · June 9, 2009

Tman wrote:

Little vague on the title….sorry. <?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The question is, I see many people selling their images in both print and digital formats. Would parents/families purchasing pictures of their kids at athletic events prefer to have a digital/original download so that they could keep it and make whatever reproductions they want? Provided they understand the basics of doing this.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
And if they do, what might be a fare price for this service? Again highest quality of download.<o:p></o:p>

In my experience, that while we see lines at the printing Kiosks in walmart/target, most parents still aren't ready for digital and they value it less.

With that said, I would only sell the 1MP and 4MP versions. The 1MP is good for facebook, etc and I would price it the same as an 8x10. The 4MP version is good for printing 8x10s and I would price is as 2-3x more than an 8x10.

If they need larger than 8x10 they can probably get it out of the 4MP, however I would encourage them to use you, and sell those enlargements at a premium.

JohnBiggs · June 9, 2009

BTW: this topic is probably better suited to the Business forum.

Tman · June 9, 2009

I am new to the board and learning.....thanks again for the advice, greatly appreciated.

T

mbellot · June 9, 2009

JohnBiggs wrote:

In my experience, that while we see lines at the printing Kiosks in walmart/target, most parents still aren't ready for digital and they value it less.

I would agree with this...

I shoot a couple of events each year on spec and you can count on one hand the number of times I've been asked for digital format images (which I don't sell).

The few that are looking for digital want to simply buy a CD for a couple bucks.

nipprdog · June 9, 2009

Tman wrote:

<LINK href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CTORY%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml" rel=File-List><STYLE>  </STYLE> and currently shoot with a D80 and a 70-300 as my primary gear. Obviously I would like/need to upgrade.<?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
This is a weekend passion, parents love my free pic’s posted to my Picasa page

So you've been giving your Best Buy pics away, and now, you want to tell those parents that they will now have to pay for them?

You're asking for trouble.

Dano · June 9, 2009

I offer 3 different sizes of digital downloads. For youth and high school I don't sell a lot of DD's but do with the cycling images. I did sell a cd to a parent of her daughters soccer photos for $85. I'm sure you know this now but don't give stuff away.

Tman · June 10, 2009

Tman · June 10, 2009

Thanks again for the information, great home page and content. I really enjoyed looking around.

Montec · June 15, 2009

wrote:

Originally Posted by Tman

This is a weekend passion, parents love my free pic’s posted to my Picasa page and I just started to consider this as something more than fun.<o:p></o:p>

And after you do consider it and get involved with this you will see how all the people with DSLR's offering free pictures to the parents make this genre of photography futile.
I have had people stand behind me and take pictures of the T&I's I was doing and giving them to the team...

I don't mean the comment with disrespect, it is just a fact of life these days. I wish you well.

termina3 · June 15, 2009

Sports photography can be done… the key is to control the sidelines, gain exclusivity over other commercial photographers, market heavily, and produce a high-quality product.

Montec · June 15, 2009

termina3 wrote:

Sports photography can be done… the key is to control the sidelines, gain exclusivity over other commercial photographers, market heavily, and produce a high-quality product.

I agree with you whole heartedly. But the parents and coaches with cameras that you CANNOT control take away a huge part of the profits.

There is a parent of one of the players on a local girls softball team I shoot the team & Individuals for that shows up with a Canon 5D Mk2 and a 500mm Bigma at every game...gives the prints away free to all team members. There is one or two in every league. They often get the teams to remain in their team pose after I shoot the photos and they do their shooting....Not likely you will sell any images to that parent

I am not saying it cannot be done, I make a decent go of it by doing dozens of teams, my point was in response to the OP's comment on how he had been doing this for free (taking profits from the pro) and now wanted to now become the pro and he would see how this behaviour affects his business...it goes on everywhere, just the new reality with the new digital cameras available to consumers these days.

jrogers · June 15, 2009

I've coached a lot of teams in several sports. While it is not uncommon to have a parent on the sideline with their expensive SLR, it is rare that anyone on the team ever sees the pictures. (When I've taken pictures, I've posted them on smugmug and distributed the link.)

I was talking to a woman who has taken action pictures professionally for about 10+ years, and she said that if you take action pictures, do it because you love it, not to make money. If people do buy a picture, they usually only buy one. The way she makes her money is taking the ubiquitous team pictures that all teams do every year, with the assorted packages.

tlphotos · June 16, 2009

I have been doing what you are proposing for a few years now and the only constant I have found regarding what parents want to buy is that there is no constant. I have had everything requested and have eventually made a little of everything available and have had sales in all areas - although exclusively through my pro Sugmug account. Some buy only 4x6 prints, some only enlargements, some all sized prints, some individual downlads, some a cd of their child, some buy all of the whole team, some photo merchadise, some a mix of everything, and a lot who get nothing. I have not found a preference among my parents.
I do things a little differently than most, I only shoot on spec for team on the day they play my daughters' teams (since I am there anyway) and I have the team request me. I send out an email to the coaches and they get back to me if their team is interested in having me shoot their team (plus I get parental permission that way - cuts out a whole lot of potential headache for posting minors online). Only half the teams request me, but with four kids playing sports, keeps me very busy. The other half either have a parent giving away photos or are not interested in spending more $$$ on pictures so my method is keeping me from wasting a lot of time shooting for nothing.

As far as pricing, most parents have little appetite for photos. Consider this, parents have already spent $$$ on league fees, T&I photos, new sports equipment (growing kids), trophies, coach's gifts, and league fundraisers - not much left over for what most parents consider additional photos. Some parents will surprise you and plunk down $100+ on just their kid. Most parents, however, are not going to spend more than $20 on game photos. I think you will quickly find out why there is not already a pro covering games - there is not that much money in it. I cut a lot of overhead by being there anyway for my own kids, but I would not do this if it was not for the love of it and my personal vandetta to provide girls a better picture of themselves than the sleaze they get from Hollywood and Glamour.

Lastly, find a way to set yourself apart, offer collages and other personalized products than just photos. Good luck out there!

Tman wrote:

Little vague on the title….sorry. <?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The question is, I see many people selling their images in both print and digital formats. Would parents/families purchasing pictures of their kids at athletic events prefer to have a digital/original download so that they could keep it and make whatever reproductions they want? Provided they understand the basics of doing this.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
And if they do, what might be a fare price for this service? Again highest quality of download.<o:p></o:p>

MT Stringer · June 16, 2009

tlphotos described my basic findings also. Some games produce no sales, others a few 4x6's, then every now and then, someone will buy every picture on the site of their kid. That happened today - 4 8x10's and 7 5x7's.
You just never can tell what the outcome will be when shooting on spec. The good thing is I was asked to shoot the last game so more sales should come in as soon as they get eliminated from the playoffs (13 yo all-stars).

Feast or famine - mostly famine! :-(
Mike

SamirD · June 22, 2009

Well, they want me to get a real job, get married, stop playing with cars, start having kids, and be a little yes-man. Oh wait, just read the first post--carry on...

wadesworld · June 24, 2009

Before we bash parents too much - if you see a guy that has pro gear at your child's next game, are you going to put your camera away and ask him how you can buy his prints? Or take your own?

Not to mention as a parent, it's *extremely* frustrating to have to buy an expensive package of T&I pictures, with no chance to see a proof beforehand, and end up with a $60 collection of 20 photos of your child looking horrible. (Well, OK you don't have to buy it - but try telling your child he can't be in the pictures and it's too expensive to buy pictures of him)

tlphotos is dead-on about the costs parents incur. Expecting them to purchase frequently is overly optimistic at best.

Montec · June 24, 2009

wadesworld wrote:

Before we bash parents too much - if you see a guy that has pro gear at your child's next game, are you going to put your camera away and ask him how you can buy his prints? Or take your own?

Not to mention as a parent, it's *extremely* frustrating to have to buy an expensive package of T&I pictures, with no chance to see a proof beforehand, and end up with a $60 collection of 20 photos of your child looking horrible. (Well, OK you don't have to buy it - but try telling your child he can't be in the pictures and it's too expensive to buy pictures of him)

tlphotos is dead-on about the costs parents incur. Expecting them to purchase frequently is overly optimistic at best.

I agree with you about proofing. I always send out a proof package with a variety of packages and add-ons that they can purchase.

johng · June 24, 2009

Wade,

I understand your points. But especially with regards to T&I packages, what is best for the consumer and what is best for the producer are at odds. From a business perspective you want guaranteed sales. It cuts down on your workflow. Of course parents don't want to buy photos that look bad. But you'll also have parents that just plane forget to order.

I also concur that parents aren't going to put away their cameras. It is a big reason why action sports photography can be such a difficult business anymore. Combine the fact parents are taking their own photos with the 'unofficial parent photographer' role - where one of the parents takes photos and gives them away - it's a tough market to sell in. You can't blame parents for taking their own photos or accepting photos for free.

But from a business perspective you have to recognize when these things are taking place because they will dramtically hit your sales.

wadesworld · June 24, 2009

johng wrote:

Wade,

I understand your points. But especially with regards to T&I packages, what is best for the consumer and what is best for the producer are at odds. From a business perspective you want guaranteed sales. It cuts down on your workflow. Of course parents don't want to buy photos that look bad. But you'll also have parents that just plane forget to order.

John,

Oh, I definitely understand why photographers do it. But the fact that I'm maximizing the photographer's time & profit doesn't make me any happier if I don't like the photos I had to buy. That's speaking as a parent - as a photographer, if I were in the business of T&I shots, I might do exactly the same thing.

I've been the evil "parent with a good DSLR that gives the pictures away before" and have very mixed feelings about it. Am I hurting a potential pro that might want to try to sell pics? Perhaps. But if I just want to enjoy taking pictures and not have to worry about running a business, why shouldn't I? For that matter, what if there's no pro covering our league? Should I refrain from taking pics just in case one year one happens to show up?

I dunno - I'd love to make some extra cash selling prints. But I'm just not convinced the return is worth the effort. But I'm not sure if the answer is to quit taking shots just so I don't "ruin it for other photographers."

It's a really hard question I'm struggling with...

jrogers · June 25, 2009

wadesworld wrote:

John,

Oh, I definitely understand why photographers do it. But the fact that I'm maximizing the photographer's time & profit doesn't make me any happier if I don't like the photos I had to buy. That's speaking as a parent - as a photographer, if I were in the business of T&I shots, I might do exactly the same thing.

I've been the evil "parent with a good DSLR that gives the pictures away before" and have very mixed feelings about it. Am I hurting a potential pro that might want to try to sell pics? Perhaps. But if I just want to enjoy taking pictures and not have to worry about running a business, why shouldn't I? For that matter, what if there's no pro covering our league? Should I refrain from taking pics just in case one year one happens to show up?

I dunno - I'd love to make some extra cash selling prints. But I'm just not convinced the return is worth the effort. But I'm not sure if the answer is to quit taking shots just so I don't "ruin it for other photographers."

It's a really hard question I'm struggling with...

Wade,

I'm not sure why that it a hard question...especially since you answered in your post. As a parent, you should be taking pictures if you're so inclined. Unless it's a rare situation, there's not going to be a pro shooting your game anyway, any more than you'd expect a pro to show up for your kid's birthday party.

RoyReddy · June 25, 2009

johng wrote:

Tman, - june 9

There is no single correct answer.
...
In your goals you need to establish how much time you want to invest,
...
Make sure when you figure out your hourly rate you're including all your costs:
...
Good luck in your planning process!

I am writing to share and thank you all for Great Responses and Super Discussions
Thanks John G for the sharing this above

These words resonate with my experiences. I too have been working on cracking this marketplace and clearing the hurdles( and there are several).

I know that my captures are better than nearly all of the parents versions. They know it as well. But, that still does not move them to purchase all the time.

I confirm perceptions include;
a) free expectation, like FaceBook and other social sharing
b) low value placed on the cost of Pro level equipment

Here we go, At the risk of stating the known
So far, I have learned that;
a) there is a time urgency to the delivery of the product
b) that game events can make an enormous difference
c) Sponsorship money flows more freely
d) some sports are more motivated than others
e.x. Hockey = indoors, tough harsh low light & more competitive & more ego

E) Sales are lower than expected in all products.
F) Tracking, Stats and Analytics is helpful but provides no Secret Yet

G) the answers are elusive

H) when I enjoy it I shoot and adjust and Post images.

I) T&I contracts are a good entry and a revenue base to build the extras on top of.

Roy

What do parents really want?

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