1:00pm sunlight

dreamcometrue · July 8, 2009

Hi everyone. I am shooting my first wedding this weekend of my brother-in-law & fiance. My main fear is the time of the wedding is 1:00pm....outside. I am working with only a top mount flash. Can anyone help with some tips and tricks to work with the possible harsh sun?? Thanks guys.

Darren Troy C · July 8, 2009

one word....R-E-F-L-E-C-T-O-R

1pm is going to be HARSH! Pray for overcast skies!

dreamcometrue · July 8, 2009

Idlewild wrote:

one word....R-E-F-L-E-C-T-O-R

1pm is going to be HARSH! Pray for overcast skies!

i have a reflector for shots I set up (in well shaded areas), where I need help is how to handle to actual ceremony that will be in the open.

Matthew Saville · July 8, 2009

dreamcometrue wrote:

Hi everyone. I am shooting my first wedding this weekend of my brother-in-law & fiance. My main fear is the time of the wedding is 1:00pm....outside. I am working with only a top mount flash. Can anyone help with some tips and tricks to work with the possible harsh sun?? Thanks guys.

Personally? I shoot RAW, use an on-camera flash if I have to, and in the end it's really not your fault that the couple didn't schedule their wedding for golden hour, so don't worry about it.

I will say however, that shooting RAW and using a polarizer, you can get some great tones even in bright sunlight.

Or, just find shade. I've taken TONS of bridal portraits in high-noon light, it's just a matter of positioning the subjects right, etc.

Here are a couple recent bridal photos taken mid-day:

(See? It's not as hard as you think to keep the sun off people's faces!)

=Matt=

dreamcometrue · July 8, 2009

Matthew Saville wrote:

Personally? I shoot RAW, use an on-camera flash if I have to, and in the end it's really not your fault that the couple didn't schedule their wedding for golden hour, so don't worry about it.

I will say however, that shooting RAW and using a polarizer, you can get some great tones even in bright sunlight.

Or, just find shade. I've taken TONS of bridal portraits in high-noon light, it's just a matter of positioning the subjects right, etc.

Here are a couple recent bridal photos taken mid-day:

(See? It's not as hard as you think to keep the sun off people's faces!)

=Matt=

Thank you so much Matt. I do have a polarizer lens (yeah). I will try it. side note: I have seen your work in the past, beautiful shots:D

FedererPhoto · July 8, 2009

Matt,

Just wanted to drop in and again squeal in delight over your work. That tree shot is so money, absolutely love it. How'd you get light onto their faces - or did you just luck out (and I don't mean that in a "it was just luck"-way) with reflected ambient?

As to the OP:

Find good light (which doesn't always mean avoid the sun, as Matt showed). My most recent (blogged) wedding -- all the outdoor stuff was made between noon and 4pm on a cloudless day and I'm quite happy with how things came out.

If you have no options, fill flash, reflect (a concrete sidewalk or light-colored building actually works great as a reflector many times) and/or go environmental. :-/

lisarhinehart · July 8, 2009

DCT I'm so glad you asked this question as I will be in a similar situation and also started this same thread.

Matt: Wow those are some FANYASTIC shots!!! Do you have any recs for a polarizer? I'm thinking you mentioned RAW as you can adjust in PP and that these were shot in shade... can you give more specific advice to newbies like me?

dreamcometrue · July 8, 2009

lisarhinehart wrote:

DCT I'm so glad you asked this question as I will be in a similar situation and also started this same thread.

Matt: Wow those are some FANYASTIC shots!!! Do you have any recs for a polarizer? I'm thinking you mentioned RAW as you can adjust in PP and that these were shot in shade... can you give more specific advice to newbies like me?

Hey Lisa,
Regarding Raw, It is the BEST. I have finally took the Raw route, and well, I will never go back to jpeg. It can take a little more time to adjust but man, the outcome is amazing.

jeffreaux2 · July 9, 2009

+1

For Matt's suggestions for fill flash and a polorizer......

Just be aware....

Not all circular polorizers are created equal. If you shoot "manual", then using CP's of different manufactureers on different lenses that you swap during the wedding could require a change in exposure settings. Best bet is to stay with the same manufacturer....and/or stick to a single lens per camera during the ceremony.

dreamcometrue · July 9, 2009

jeffreaux2 wrote:

+1

For Matt's suggestions for fill flash and a polorizer......

Just be aware....

Not all circular polorizers are created equal. If you shoot "manual", then using CP's of different manufactureers on different lenses that you swap during the wedding could require a change in exposure settings. Best bet is to stay with the same manufacturer....and/or stick to a single lens per camera during the ceremony.

thanks for the extra tip Jeff.:D My nerves are on fire, I am sooo excited for Saturday, wish me luck guys and thanks again for all the helpful tips and advise.

heatherfeather · July 9, 2009

Some great advice in the replys!

You are likely going to have to switch your exposure up and down during the ceremony anyway... my last wedding had huge drifting clouds that would cover the sun for a brief moment and then blow over.... it caused a whole lot of histogram checking.

lisarhinehart · July 9, 2009

polarizing filter vs software
What polarizing filters would you recommend? My mind immeadiately goes to LR and their polarizer... I guess the problem with that would be given the nature of post processing being done after the ceremony it would be too late to make changes. If you have the filter you can see it's effects immediately and adjust accordingly, not after the fact.

--Lisa

jeffreaux2 · July 9, 2009

lisarhinehart wrote:

What polarizing filters would you recommend? My mind immeadiately goes to LR and their polarizer... I guess the problem with that would be given the nature of post processing being done after the ceremony it would be too late to make changes. If you have the filter you can see it's effects immediately and adjust accordingly, not after the fact.

--Lisa

You cannot remove reflections and glare after the photo has been taken. Any type of "polorizer" thats used in processing will only be making changes to certain colors and more than likely will only be geared for darkening the blues in a sky. I was taught long ago that if its bright enough outside to wear sunglasses, then a polorizer ought to be on the camera.

The filter that comes with Lightroom is a graduated nuetral density, and psuedo polorizers would have to be added as a preset.

You need a screw on type circular polorizer. Hoya or B&W would be a safe bet

lisarhinehart · July 9, 2009

cool-- good point, I'll get one

jeffreaux2 wrote:

You cannot remove reflections and glare after the photo has been taken. Any type of "polorizer" thats used in processing will only be making changes to certain colors and more than likely will only be geared for darkening the blues in a sky. I was taught long ago that if its bright enough outside to wear sunglasses, then a polorizer ought to be on the camera.

The filter that comes with Lightroom is a graduated nuetral density, and psuedo polorizers would have to be added as a preset.

You need a screw on type circular polorizer. Hoya or B&W would be a safe bet

zoomer · July 9, 2009

Ok news to me that using a polarizing filter in broad sun shots with people is going to help.
Polarizing filters only work in the opposite direction the sun is rising or setting, plus if you use them in a wider angle application you will have uneven effects in the skies.
I am very interested in hearing what benefit this filter would have in taking midday shots in bright sunlight of people, other than reducing the overall amount of light hitting the lens, an effect than can be duplicated by negative compensation.
Maybe my understanding is incorrect, I would love to be convinced that this filter would help in this situation.

I shoot a lot of midday weddings in the sun. I always shoot in Aperture mode at f2.8 or f4.
I shoot in both ttl and ttl bl.
I go between using -1 or 0 on the flash power and then adjust the compensation dial on ttl bl for the closer shots...
Then for the further away shots like the big group shots I pump the flash power up to +3 using ttl and then adjust compensation down to just where the blinkies are going off, especially on those big group shots where the flash is not as close.

The best tip I can give you is to set your blinkies on your viewer so when you shoot the picture it appears on your viewer and have the blinkies on.
Watch that closely and adjust your exposure using the compensation dial to where the blinkies are just barely going off or to the point where they are not quite going off and then check your histograms from time to time DO NOT trust what the pictures look like in your monitor.

For the actual ceremony I would shoot in ttl at plus 3 flash power and adjust compensation to where the blinkies are just barely flashing, kneel down in the front so you are close enough for your flash to have an effect.
Alternatively you can shoot in ttl bl at -1 or 0 if you can get really close (inside 15 feet) for the ceremony.

TTL allows you to have more flash on the subject for the further away shots, TTL BL balances your flash so it will never be stronger than the ambient, so you don't get overflashed on the close stuff.
This is Nikon terminology, don't know what Canon calls it.

If everything goes to crap and you panic when you are actually shooting put your camera on P return all your flash and compensatin settings to 0 and just shoot.

I could be wrong of course but I believe those excellent photos Matthew posted were shot without flash in the shade with sun providing back light.

Matthew Saville · July 9, 2009

FedererPhoto wrote:

Matt,

Just wanted to drop in and again squeal in delight over your work. That tree shot is so money, absolutely love it. How'd you get light onto their faces - or did you just luck out (and I don't mean that in a "it was just luck"-way) with reflected ambient?

Do you mean the rimlight coming from behind, or the soft light doing the actual illumination on the visible side of their faces? The soft illumination light is just achieved by flat-out over-exposing the heck out of the image, look down towards the bottom of the image and you can see what the light is like outside of the tree- totally blown. The rimlight is just from the filtered yet direct sunlight coming down onto their faces. That I didn't arrange or see beforehand, it just happened...

lisarhinehart wrote:

What polarizing filters would you recommend? My mind immeadiately goes to LR and their polarizer... I guess the problem with that would be given the nature of post processing being done after the ceremony it would be too late to make changes. If you have the filter you can see it's effects immediately and adjust accordingly, not after the fact.

--Lisa

The Sigma EX circular polarizer is my favorite, as someone who can't justify something ridiculous like a Blue-N-Gold or a kaesemann... The Sigma is good quality glass, slim enough for an ultra-wide zoom, yet still has front threads for those crazy landscape shooters who want to bust out a GND on top of it all...

And yes as Jeff said, there are some things you just CANNOT do with PP. A polarizer does some SERIOUS work on skies and reflections beforehand, an effect that I don't think I could ever truly replicate in PS no matter what curves etc. adjustments I made... Here's what an un-polarized day at the beach looks like:

And here's what you get when you polarize:

...Sure, you can always darken the sky in photoshop pretty easily, but cutting through a reflection on water to see whole new colors beneath? Probably not...

zoomer wrote:

Ok news to me that using a polarizing filter in broad sun shots with people is going to help.
Polarizing filters only work in the opposite direction the sun is rising or setting, plus if you use them in a wider angle application you will have uneven effects in the skies.
I am very interested in hearing what benefit this filter would have in taking midday shots in bright sunlight of people, other than reducing the overall amount of light hitting the lens, an effect than can be duplicated by negative compensation.
Maybe my understanding is incorrect, I would love to be convinced that this filter would help in this situation.

Well technically speaking, Zoomer, polarizers work at a 90 degree angle from the sun, so at noon or thereabouts you can get some great poliarization on water, and a good amount in the sky. (See my samples, taken around mid-day...)

It's true that intuitively you wouldn't feel like there's any benefit to shooting with a polarizer for portraits or events. What I was mainly talking about was not the up-close, candid portraits and things, but moreso a medium-wide angle shot of the whole ceremony, something like my above examples where maybe there is a small lake or pond near the ceremony, or sky in the picture, in which case the polarizer will really help you make mid-day colors *pop*.

I dunno, I've just been a landscape photographer for so long, it's just my natural instinct to put on a polarizer when the light gets boring. It's my "only hope" kinda thing, in an effort to make images bearably colorful and crisp...

Of course also, in mid-day light there's no way you'll get away with shooting at f/1.4 etc. (Well my Nikon goes up to 1/8000 sec, but don't most Canons only go to 1/4000?) ...Anyway here's a couple portraits I got a week or two ago on a beach, again mid-afternoon, and this time I needed to shoot wide open for one of the shots.

And in general, I have found, shooting RAW with any of the latest generation DSLR's, you really can get away with shooting sunlight and shade without fill flash, the DR is more than enough and all you need to do is increase your default shadows boost in Bridge / Lightroom.

(Shooting too wide will give you funky skies- YEP! But in most cases it's not a show-stopper. If the client orders a print, or if this is going into an album, I'll even it out a bit. Otherwise, it's just fine...

=Matt=

MA-FOTO · July 9, 2009

+1 to what Matt said on polarizer at wedding in mid day sun....

If you want to shoot at 1.4-ish up to 2.2 w/ primes in mid day sun,
you throw on a neutral density filter.
A polarizer has the same effect just not as strong - plus it will knock out reflections off anybody wearing glasses - to a degree.

(fyr: Canon 50D/5Dmkii go to 1/8000 shutter speed - can not speak of 1 series.)

Jeff .... when did B&W start making filters !!!!!

just playin' .......

i do the same thing.... (it is B+W if anybody is interested - really good glass)
also try the Moose filter from Tiffen - they combine a warming filter and a polarizer.

Later,
_Mark

jeffreaux2 · July 9, 2009

To add a little to Matt's excellent explanation....

A circular polorizer can be used for more than darkening a bright sky.....where it is most benificial depending on the sun to be located somewhere perpendicular to the barrel of the lens. In Matt's example at the beach, what is also important is the effect the polorizer has had on the water. Keep in mid that in daylight the sun is not our only source of illumination. There are many other surfaces that reflect the sunlight to cause the glare that would make us want to slip on a pair of sunglasses with snow, sand, concrete, grass, skin, and surely a bright white wedding dress being among those reflective surfaces. If you point a CP at a car...or window....and spin it until you can see through the window...or knock the majority of the reflections off the car you can get a good idea of how powerful a tool it can be.....and the suns location in both of those instances has little bearing on whether or not the polorizer will work. Its about cutting through the reflected light...and glare......and if it helps with the sky.....well that is also a GREAT bonus.

..and Matt, the xxD Canons and up are also capable of 1/8000 shutter speeds. Their entry level bodies, like the xt or xti are only capable of 1/4000th.

zoomer · July 9, 2009

No worries Matthew, more great shots by the way.
I love the polarizing filter as well for landscapes, skies and water, when used correctly.

I hope you will agree that for the original poster and several others new to the craft that putting energy into worrying about which polarizing filter to get is energy much better used elsewhere.

Maybe after a couple years experience incorporating a polarizing filter into their pics could be of benefit...at this level of experience the minimal benefit they could gain is not worth the time, effort or money.

Matthew Saville · July 10, 2009

zoomer wrote:

No worries Matthew, more great shots by the way.
I love the polarizing filter as well for landscapes, skies and water, when used correctly.

I hope you will agree that for the original poster and several others new to the craft that putting energy into worrying about which polarizing filter to get is energy much better used elsewhere.

Maybe after a couple years experience incorporating a polarizing filter into their pics could be of benefit...at this level of experience the minimal benefit they could gain is not worth the time, effort or money.

When shooting in nasty sunlight, yes, there are a ton of things a new photographer can try to remember or do. Worrying about composition, timing, and depth are far more important than any one special trick or gadget. But I've just found that slapping a polarizer on is a great, quick way to make one's images stand out without really trying. And SO MANY portrait / wedding photographers I know don't even own a polarizer, beginner OR pro. Of course that's fine by me; it makes my own work stand out more! :-P

=Matt=

MissB · July 10, 2009

some great advice here... I myself cringe at that time.. definatly need a reflector... MATT YOU ROCK!!!!

Matthew Saville · July 12, 2009

Hey all,

I JUST shot a mid-day wedding yesterday, complete with nasty sunlight mixed with some deep dark shade. And my polarizer came in WAY handy! Stand by for a few sample photos. I specifically thought of this thread and made sure to do a "before and after" shot using my polarizer...

=Matt=

[edit] Here's the two comparison shots. Again as I said, it's the medium-wide angles where this comes in handy. Notice not just the difference in the blue sky, but how the difference in brightness overall allows you to see into the shadows much more, and makes the overall image more colorful. These were RAW photos that received the same exact processing...

The first shot (no polarizer) looks like a P&S snapshot taken on a plain, dry, hot afternoon. The 2nd shot, if I do say so myself, looks almost tropical and breezy...

=Matt=

MissB · July 12, 2009

wow. I had no idea it made that big of a difference!!!

lisarhinehart · July 12, 2009

Very cool--- thanks for thinking of us!

Art Scott · July 13, 2009

dreamcometrue wrote:

Thank you so much Matt. I do have a polarizer lens (yeah). I will try it. side note: I have seen your work in the past, beautiful shots:D

can you get a camera rotating flash bracket.....and get a softbox(like Lumiquest) to soften the flash......those 2 items can save your behind.....the softbox says you loose 2 or 3 stops so just dial in on your flash compensation dial the amount of loss or just under it........I do not do this as I use a handheld flash meter that measures and combines the ambient (harsh noonish light) and the flash....so you don't burn up everything.............

1:00pm sunlight

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