Help with a conundrum

Ann McRae · May 16, 2005

Hi guys and gals.
(If this is more suitable for the wide angle forum, please move it).
As you all may know, I shoot my kids soccer games, try to get great shots, and offer them to the parents for a really small mark up. At some point I would like to grow this into a real business and offer the service/prints to other teams at a real mark up.
My daughter has joined a new team, and there is already a mom photographer, shooting film with about a 70 mm lens that likes to put togehter collages etc from each game and give them to the kids! She has just got photoshop so thinks she will be able to do this quickly now.
I am quite happy to just back off and let her be, but this weekend she asked if I would provide her with my photos for this project, and she would make sure everyone knew they were mine! I am really caught because I do not want to step on toes, but I've seen her stuff and it is much different from mine and, well, mine is mine right?:dunno :dunno

On a completely different note, a fellow coach knows a pro photog that is just starting to get involved in sports event photography and has more work than he can handle. He was going to hook us up, with the potential for me to free lance for this guy.

Ann

Mitch · May 16, 2005

Ann,

What is yours is yours! I know it is very hard to say no when asked, but if you don't this time then it will be expected every time.

Just my thoughts

Mitch

mercphoto · May 16, 2005

I am quite happy to just back off and let her be, but this weekend she asked if I would provide her with my photos for this project, and she would make sure everyone knew they were mine! I am really caught because I do not want to step on toes, but I've seen her stuff and it is much different from mine and, well, mine is mine right?

Absolutely no reason why you need to giver her your photos for free. And no reason to feel you are stepping on toes. You have as much right to be there and doing that as she, correct?

Angelo · May 16, 2005

geeez! toughie!

I'd tell her how much I appreciate her respect for your work then explain that your photgraphy is not a hobby but a profession and as such you can't set a precedent for free distribution.

dragon300zx · May 16, 2005

This is actually a very simple situation as long as you just ignore any emotions.

"I am sorry but no, I will not be giving out my photos. I am a semi-proffesional photographer trying to go completely pro. I use these photos for my portfolio as well as offer them for sale to the parents at a discounted price. Although I respect what you are doing it just doesn't fit with my goals."

It is a public place, she does not have an exclusivity contract, and you are not requiring people to pay you money, unless they want to buy your photos. We are capitalists. This is perfectly reasonable and acceptable. Not to mention as it sound from your post your photos are either a much higher quality or nothing like hers in concept. Business is Business. If your father was working for you and dropped your camera and broke it are you gonna just say "Oh thats OK, heres your check don't worry bout it". No, (at least I wouldn't) as much as I love my father if he is working for me it is business and he is fired (yes I have fired him before) just like any other poor quality assistant.

mercphoto · May 16, 2005

Angelo wrote:

geeez! toughie!

I'd tell her how much I appreciate her respect for your work then explain that your photgraphy is not a hobby but a profession and as such you can't set a precedent for free distribution.

Not a toughie at all -- don't give the photos away. Very simple. What might be tough is explaining why. The other mom is likely to get into some tirade about it being "for the children", or about the "free publicity", yadda yadda. That is the tough part.

If she talks about it being "for the children", turn it away from an emotional argument (which you'll never win) to a business argument. Its a business, not a hobby, and people can choose to buy your photos, or take hers for free. As far as free publicity goes, I don't see how it can benefit you to have your photos distributed by another photographer. And free publicity is usually worth what you pay for it. (heck, most things are worth what you paid for it).

In the end, they are your photos, and you can choose to give them away, or choose to attempt to sell them. Its as simple as that. And there is no arguing away from that simple point.

wxwax · May 16, 2005

Ann, the issue is less what you say than how you say it.

You're gonna say no, I presume.

So now, in the interests of not creating an enemy where you don't need one, you might be searching for a way to politely get out of the situation.

It sounds like she's an amateur with little or no awareness of the business issues. Personally, I'd butter her up big time about what she's doing, since it's really cool. I mean, she's putting-in a lot of time to do her thing.

Then I'd explain that I'm trying a different approach, with the goal of making my photography a business. So, much as I admire her work, I'd be sinking my own business plan by giving her the shots. I'd like to, and I respect what she's doing. But it's hard to sell my shots after giving them away. And I wouldn't dream of asking her to buy my shots to include them in her collages.

dragon300zx · May 16, 2005

Better yet. Let us answer her for you. Simply point her to this thread and tell her you asked us and it was a 100% vote.

Ann McRae · May 17, 2005

Thank You all. I will try to synthesize all of this into a non offensive response.
I just know I am going to offend her.....last season I asked to do this teams team photo (for my going rate of $10 per kid for team plus individual). Well they said they had a mom that liked doing that stuff and would stick with her. Then my daughter saw the team pic and said "mom, you should see it, everybody has red eye and its blurry and......" . The core of this team have been together for a couple of years and my daughter has been playing an age group up and it is just a really difficult position for her and for me!
Absolutely have to do it in such a way as it is a business discussion, not a personal one.

I am grateful for the advice, and will follow and let you know the outcome.

Thanks
Ann

mercphoto · May 17, 2005

Ann McRae wrote:

Thank You all. I will try to synthesize all of this into a non offensive response. I just know I am going to offend her

If that is truly the case, then personally I would stop worrying about the inevitable. The only way to not offend her is going to be for you to stop pursuing this venture.

.....last season I asked to do this teams team photo (for my going rate of $10 per kid for team plus individual). Well they said they had a mom that liked doing that stuff and would stick with her. Then my daughter saw the team pic and said "mom, you should see it, everybody has red eye and its blurry and......" . The core of this team have been together for a couple of years and my daughter has been playing an age group up and it is just a really difficult position for her and for me!
Absolutely have to do it in such a way as it is a business discussion, not a personal one.

Is the mom doing those crappy team photos for free? If so, approach the team in a business manner as well: you can have her (so-so) photos for free, or my better photos for $10 per child. Let them decide. Classic example of cost-benefit. Don't call her pictures "bad", but point out where they are blurry, point out the red eye, etc. Critique in a polite manner. Explain how and why you can do better.

The woman will be offended that someone, anyone, considers her photographs sub-par. But hey, that's life. Its not your job to protect her ego.

Shay Stephens · May 19, 2005

One of the keys to eliminating stress, is learning to say no. When you say yes when you really mean no, that creates stress. If you say no when you mean no, there is no stress. Most people will take no for an answer, and all is well.

For the ones who will not take no for an answer, they will have to get used to disappointment, or you will need to negotiate something that both parties can live with.

But the key to long life and pleasant living is saying no when you need to.

4labs · May 19, 2005

Shay Stephens wrote:

But the key to long life and pleasant living is saying no when you need to.

and don't forget living as far away from MIL as possible!

Ann McRae · June 3, 2005

The end result - she did not ask a second time, which means I did not have to answer her. She has made a collage, and is selling copies to parents for $1.50 each........... Market value for photos has just dropped significantly!

Oh well.

On a different note, one of my harshest critics wrt selling photos as opposed to giving them away (his son is on my sons team and there is a long unpleasant history between us involving my photos and his use of them) has just ordered 4
5 x 7 prints from me. Small victories.

ann

dragon300zx · June 4, 2005

Her prices may be cheap but so are her photos. Yours are deffinatley worth more. And if people complain about your photos, I would simply state that they can either understand that your time, talent, knowledge, and equipment cost money. If they have all of those and wish to take their own photographs they can.

ian408 · June 4, 2005

There's been some discussion in other forums about pricing a photo
relative to value. In the end, a parent presented with a solid action
photo and great team photo at $10 will eventually see the difference
$8.50 makes

It will take time and effort on your part but I think it's worth it if you
want to make your hobby a business.

Ian

Help with a conundrum

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