NEw 580Ex II want to use for FN Football

Graham Cracker · October 29, 2009

I have just upgraded to a 580 EXii and a bracket. I am noticing that even if my ISO is at 6400 and in AV mode I can't get my shutter speed above 300. I have a 1DM3. ANy advice on how to get the shutter speed up to around 500? Also for those that shoot with flash, how much do you back off the power of the flash? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Patrick

raptorcaptor · October 30, 2009

Graham Cracker wrote:

I have just upgraded to a 580 EXii and a bracket. I am noticing that even if my ISO is at 6400 and in AV mode I can't get my shutter speed above 300. I have a 1DM3. ANy advice on how to get the shutter speed up to around 500? Also for those that shoot with flash, how much do you back off the power of the flash? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Patrick

In order to use your flash above 1/300 sec you need to set it to high speed sync. Probably time to read that manual.

I would suggest reading some of the begining flash tutorials on www.strobist.com

mjpeters · October 30, 2009

If the body sees the flash you are limited to the sync speed of the body.

If you want to go over that, you can use HSS as noted above, but realize that working distance gets limited, recycle time lengthened and battery life shortened.

There is another way however. Don't use the canon off-camera cord. Instead use a male-male PC cord. The body won't see the flash (it also won't "communicate" with it other than to fire it.) On the 580exII as you drop the power output, your shorten the flash duration. Set it to manual and adjust the output to get the exposure that you are looking for. Begin upping the shutter speed until you get a black strip at the bottom (landscape) or side (portrait) of the frame, then back off 1/3 stop. On a mkIIN with a vivitar 285 I can get ss of 1/400th at 1/4 power.

Graham Cracker · October 30, 2009

raptorcaptor wrote:

In order to use your flash above 1/300 sec you need to set it to high speed sync. Probably time to read that manual.

I would suggest reading some of the begining flash tutorials on www.strobist.com

I did read the manuals and even purchased an instructional DVD, but still can't find the answer. I have it set to high-speed sync but it still stays at 1/300. I am trying to see if I have something turned on that I shouldn't. I need some help from someone that has a 1DM3 and uses flash for evening sports. I came across something that to have rapid flash and high ISO it has to be in P mode, wont work in AV or M or TV, but this was with a 50D. I can't imagine that there would be this limitation with the 1DM3.

Graham Cracker · October 30, 2009

mjpeters wrote:

If the body sees the flash you are limited to the sync speed of the body.

If you want to go over that, you can use HSS as noted above, but realize that working distance gets limited, recycle time lengthened and battery life shortened.

There is another way however. Don't use the canon off-camera cord. Instead use a male-male PC cord. The body won't see the flash (it also won't "communicate" with it other than to fire it.) On the 580exII as you drop the power output, your shorten the flash duration. Set it to manual and adjust the output to get the exposure that you are looking for. Begin upping the shutter speed until you get a black strip at the bottom (landscape) or side (portrait) of the frame, then back off 1/3 stop. On a mkIIN with a vivitar 285 I can get ss of 1/400th at 1/4 power.

Where would you find pc cord? I am really new with this. B&H Photo? Thanks for the help

johng · October 30, 2009

Graham,

There's no reason to use higher shutter speeds for sports shooting with flash. The flash takes the place of high shutter speeds. You freeze the action by using a camera exposure around 2 stops below ambient. The flash burst (which only lasts for 1/2000-1/4000) freezes the action. But the key is the camera's exposure needs to be about 2 stops below ambient. The closer the camera's exposure is to correctly exposing the scene the more you'll see ghosting in the image.

Also - HSS really diminishes the power output of the flash - it's not a great option for sports - it's better suited for fill-flash situations in sunlight where you may not be able to get shutter speeds slower than sync speed.

Here's a football shot at 1/300 - flash pretty well stops the motion:

Graham Cracker · October 30, 2009

johng wrote:

Graham,

There's no reason to use higher shutter speeds for sports shooting with flash. The flash takes the place of high shutter speeds. You freeze the action by using a camera exposure around 2 stops below ambient. The flash burst (which only lasts for 1/2000-1/4000) freezes the action. But the key is the camera's exposure needs to be about 2 stops below ambient. The closer the camera's exposure is to correctly exposing the scene the more you'll see ghosting in the image.

Also - HSS really diminishes the power output of the flash - it's not a great option for sports - it's better suited for fill-flash situations in sunlight where you may not be able to get shutter speeds slower than sync speed.

Here's a football shot at 1/300 - flash pretty well stops the motion:

Thank you John. This is what I needed. I have my flash mounted 16" above the camera. Do you use ETTL -II setting and have it synced with your camera? I guess you need manual if you are going to back it down? I just haven't used the flash for football. thanks for any advice. Patrick

johng · October 30, 2009

Graham,

I set a manual exposure on the camera but leave flash in ETTL and simply adjust Flash Exposure Compensation (FEC). Some photogs use manual flash power settings but I've had good enough results from the 580II and 1dmkIII I haven't bothered setting the flash power manually.

Graham Cracker · October 30, 2009

johng wrote:

Graham,

There's no reason to use higher shutter speeds for sports shooting with flash. The flash takes the place of high shutter speeds. You freeze the action by using a camera exposure around 2 stops below ambient. The flash burst (which only lasts for 1/2000-1/4000) freezes the action. But the key is the camera's exposure needs to be about 2 stops below ambient. The closer the camera's exposure is to correctly exposing the scene the more you'll see ghosting in the image.

Also - HSS really diminishes the power output of the flash - it's not a great option for sports - it's better suited for fill-flash situations in sunlight where you may not be able to get shutter speeds slower than sync speed.

What was your ISO for this picture and what was the aperture for this picture? Thanks Patrick

tjk60 · October 30, 2009

EXIF is intact I believe

ISO 640 1/250 I use a gang of two flash below the camera:

mercphoto · October 30, 2009

Graham Cracker wrote:

I have just upgraded to a 580 EXii and a bracket. I am noticing that even if my ISO is at 6400 and in AV mode I can't get my shutter speed above 300.

The problem is you are using AV mode. Read up on how flash and AV mode interact. In a nutshell it will fire the flash hard enough to properly expose the subject, and then drag the shutter to properly expose the background.

Go to manual mode, selecting our own shutter and aperture. Choose a high ISO. Set the flash to ETTL-II. Use the FEC to adjust the flash output. More to detail, set your shutter to your highest flash sync speed, probably 1/300, and keep the flash out of high speed sync mode. This is important!

Good points already about the flash being used to increase the effective shutter speed. Its like how a disco strobe stops all the dancing action. I did this all the time in night motocross. I usually did f/4.0, 1/250, ISO 800 or 1600, flash off high speed synch and FEC at zero. This was on a 1D Mark II.

Graham Cracker · October 30, 2009

mercphoto wrote:

The problem is you are using AV mode. Read up on how flash and AV mode interact. In a nutshell it will fire the flash hard enough to properly expose the subject, and then drag the shutter to properly expose the background.

Go to manual mode, selecting our own shutter and aperture. Choose a high ISO. Set the flash to ETTL-II. Use the FEC to adjust the flash output. More to detail, set your shutter to your highest flash sync speed, probably 1/300, and keep the flash out of high speed sync mode. This is important!

Good points already about the flash being used to increase the effective shutter speed. Its like how a disco strobe stops all the dancing action. I did this all the time in night motocross. I usually did f/4.0, 1/250, ISO 800 or 1600, flash off high speed synch and FEC at zero. This was on a 1D Mark II.

Great thanks

mercphoto · October 30, 2009

Graham Cracker wrote:

Great thanks

No problem. Here's an example of what I was talking about. 1D Mark-II, f/4, 1/200 and ISO 1600, flash automatic and HSS off. With a shutter speed that slow the wheels should be blurred, but notice how crisp and stopped they are. That's the flash working for you. Its a very brief and powerful burst of light. HSS throws a monkey wrench in that, which is why you keep HSS off in this case.

Graham Cracker · October 30, 2009

mercphoto wrote:

No problem. Here's an example of what I was talking about. 1D Mark-II, f/4, 1/200 and ISO 1600, flash automatic and HSS off. With a shutter speed that slow the wheels should be blurred, but notice how crisp and stopped they are. That's the flash working for you. Its a very brief and powerful burst of light. HSS throws a monkey wrench in that, which is why you keep HSS off in this case.

So in manual mode I shouldn't use the 2.8 aperture? Just go with what the camera tells me? This is an amazing shot. Thanks Patrick

mercphoto · October 30, 2009

Graham Cracker wrote:

So in manual mode I shouldn't use the 2.8 aperture? Just go with what the camera tells me? This is an amazing shot. Thanks Patrick

Thanks for the compliment. There was also a lot of post-production work to get the image to look like that, it was not like that out of the camera. The rider bought a 20x30 print of that shot, so someone else thought it was good too.

Regarding the aperture, I didn't say don't use 2.8, I said that in that particular shot I used f/4.0. If you are in manual mode the camera isn't telling *you* anything, its the other way around, you are telling the camera. If you want 2.8 then use 2.8.

One thing I didn't see mentioned yet was flash location. To help avoid red-eye in night football, given how far away the players usually are, you really need to get some serious separation from the flash and the lens. What I've seen people do is mount the flash near the bottom of the monopod, as far as their flash cord will allow. I've even seen people piggy-back flash cords to get more distance.

johng · October 30, 2009

Graham Cracker wrote:

So in manual mode I shouldn't use the 2.8 aperture? Just go with what the camera tells me? This is an amazing shot. Thanks Patrick

For HS football, this is one of the benefits of flash. Stop down to f4.0 to get more DOF an added sharpness and the light fall-off from the flash takes care of your subject isolation. You still could shoot at f2.8 but you no longer need to.

Now, we're just talking football here.

I will say the one DOWNSIDE to flash is when there's a building - very common at endzones. It's a catch-22. Endzones are usually the darkest pit of he!! so that's where flash helps the most. But those buildings are horrible for shadows.

This shot I did some PP to remove the receiver's shadow since this was meant for a print. With the shadow still there it looks worse than it does here. But at the same time - no way you'd get to see a decent shot of the player's face with good skin color in an ambient light endzone shot

Graham Cracker · October 30, 2009

mercphoto wrote:

Thanks for the compliment. There was also a lot of post-production work to get the image to look like that, it was not like that out of the camera. The rider bought a 20x30 print of that shot, so someone else thought it was good too.

Regarding the aperture, I didn't say don't use 2.8, I said that in that particular shot I used f/4.0. If you are in manual mode the camera isn't telling *you* anything, its the other way around, you are telling the camera. If you want 2.8 then use 2.8.

One thing I didn't see mentioned yet was flash location. To help avoid red-eye in night football, given how far away the players usually are, you really need to get some serious separation from the flash and the lens. What I've seen people do is mount the flash near the bottom of the monopod, as far as their flash cord will allow. I've even seen people piggy-back flash cords to get more distance.

I have a new bracket that I can get it up off the camera about 18". I have seen people talk about putting it below. May have to try it both ways.

Graham Cracker · October 30, 2009

johng wrote:

For HS football, this is one of the benefits of flash. Stop down to f4.0 to get more DOF an added sharpness and the light fall-off from the flash takes care of your subject isolation. You still could shoot at f2.8 but you no longer need to.

Now, we're just talking football here.

I will say the one DOWNSIDE to flash is when there's a building - very common at endzones. It's a catch-22. Endzones are usually the darkest pit of he!! so that's where flash helps the most. But those buildings are horrible for shadows.

This shot I did some PP to remove the receiver's shadow since this was meant for a print. With the shadow still there it looks worse than it does here. But at the same time - no way you'd get to see a decent shot of the player's face with good skin color in an ambient light endzone shot

John, you and Bill are being very helpful thanks. If I'm asking too many questions just say so. Let me see if I have this straight. If I use manual mode, set the aperture at about f4.0, drop the flash down 2 clicks as well as the lens below ambient, have my flash on ETTL-II no HHS, what ISO do you use? I do have an external power source as well. Thanks Patrick

johng · October 30, 2009

Graham Cracker wrote:

John, you and Bill are being very helpful thanks. If I'm asking too many questions just say so. Let me see if I have this straight. If I use manual mode, set the aperture at about f4.0, drop the flash down 2 clicks as well as the lens below ambient, have my flash on ETTL-II no HHS, what ISO do you use? I do have an external power source as well. Thanks Patrick

The ISO depends on the lighting in YOUR stadium. Use the meter in the viewfinder as your guide - you want the camera meter (note there will be two dashes - one for the camera, one for the flash) to be about -2 on the scale. When you start going too far below that then you start getting toward full power on the flash and that drains the batteries faster as well as hitting you with recycling.

Oh, you can also count on the fact that every X shots you'll be underexposed because the flash will not have enough power. Then it will recycle to full charge and you'll get 1, 2 or 3 more shots before the flash is too low and you're underexposed.

Also - VERY, VERY, VERY important. Do NOT use a spray-and-pray method. Shoot 700 frames in an hour and half and you very well could burn out your flash. So, if you're used to shooting 6 or 7 shot bursts you need to reign yourself in a bit. And yes, the flash WILL damage/melt if you use it too much without giving it a chance to cool down.

Graham Cracker · October 30, 2009

johng wrote:

The ISO depends on the lighting in YOUR stadium. Use the meter in the viewfinder as your guide - you want the camera meter (note there will be two dashes - one for the camera, one for the flash) to be about -2 on the scale. When you start going too far below that then you start getting toward full power on the flash and that drains the batteries faster as well as hitting you with recycling.

Oh, you can also count on the fact that every X shots you'll be underexposed because the flash will not have enough power. Then it will recycle to full charge and you'll get 1, 2 or 3 more shots before the flash is too low and you're underexposed.

Also - VERY, VERY, VERY important. Do NOT use a spray-and-pray method. Shoot 700 frames in an hour and half and you very well could burn out your flash. So, if you're used to shooting 6 or 7 shot bursts you need to reign yourself in a bit. And yes, the flash WILL damage/melt if you use it too much without giving it a chance to cool down.

Wow, that would be a painful lesson to learn thanks. I had thought about only using it from the endzone and down in the darker parts of the field and going with out the flash for the middle. Because I am a sprayer. Thanks so much

mjpeters · October 30, 2009

Graham Cracker wrote:

Where would you find pc cord? I am really new with this. B&H Photo? Thanks for the help

Lots of places. I prefer flash zebra.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]http://www.flashzebra.com/short_pc_sync/index.shtml

Graham Cracker · November 2, 2009

johng wrote:

The ISO depends on the lighting in YOUR stadium. Use the meter in the viewfinder as your guide - you want the camera meter (note there will be two dashes - one for the camera, one for the flash) to be about -2 on the scale. When you start going too far below that then you start getting toward full power on the flash and that drains the batteries faster as well as hitting you with recycling.

Oh, you can also count on the fact that every X shots you'll be underexposed because the flash will not have enough power. Then it will recycle to full charge and you'll get 1, 2 or 3 more shots before the flash is too low and you're underexposed.

Also - VERY, VERY, VERY important. Do NOT use a spray-and-pray method. Shoot 700 frames in an hour and half and you very well could burn out your flash. So, if you're used to shooting 6 or 7 shot bursts you need to reign yourself in a bit. And yes, the flash WILL damage/melt if you use it too much without giving it a chance to cool down.

John and Bill, I tried it friday night. What a difference. I will try to post a few pictures tonight. Two things I did notice 1) had difficulty getting my camera at 2 stops below without dropping the ISO. Problem there was when I didn't use the flash it was too dark so I have some shots that were almost blow out 2) when the flash caught the action it did a great job "freezing" the action but often noticed the lower legs were slightly blurred and whole image not as crisp? Don't know if this is called "ghosting" or not but curious how to avoid. here are two pictures showing what I was referring too. http://patrickgraham.smugmug.com/Other/DGRIN/9963729_8Lb2Q#701335515_MKCwy I haven't edited these at all thanks again for the tips. Patrick

NEw 580Ex II want to use for FN Football

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