Personal vs. Popular Style: Where Do You Draw the Line?

anonymouscuban · December 3, 2009

A discussion on another thread in this forum has motivated me to make this post. This isn't specific to the current challenge but it applies to shooting in general and I think it fits in this forum just as much as any other.

When I starting shooting a couple years back, I shot pictures that I enjoyed. I processed them the way I wanted to based on what looked good to me. Then I started reading and learning about photography in hopes of improving my skills. I think I succeeded in doing so. When I compare the photos I am producing now to those I took a couple years ago, I see a dramatic improvement. However, I also see something I don't like. Actually it's something I don't see. I don't see myself in a lot the photos.

Well, not myself as far as subject, but a sense of style that I can say is mine. I think I have fallen victim of shooting so that my pictures please everyone else and not me. Dgrin is awesome, don't get me wrong, but I think it's easy to get so wrapped up in all these technical critiques that you lose sight that photography is an art. Art is all about personal taste and your own creative interpretation. But yet I have been creating photos lately in an effort to make them look like everyone else's. How boring is that?

Last night I was sitting in front of my computer and reviewing a lot of my old photos in LR and this whole thing hit me in the face like a ton of bricks. I saw so many images that looked so cookie cutter, especially when it came to post work. I decided last night that I am going to go back to shooting and processing images so they appeal to me. To hell with anyone that doesn't like them. Of course, I won't throw the good things I've learned away. I will shoot with the general guidelines in mind but at the end of the day, I want to create images, not reproduce them. I will still ask for feedback and critique because I think it's important to evolving and growing as a photographer. But I will be more discriminating as to what I incorporate into my own photography. It has to be something that will improve my style, not change it. The funniest thing is that I have accepted and implemented feedback from people whose photographic style I don't like. Isn't that silly?

I'm not sure where I am going with this post or why I am posting it in the first place but I felt like I had to say it. Maybe this will help others that find themselves in the same place as me.

craig_d · December 3, 2009

There is a wonderful statement about "constructive criticism" by the pre-WW2 photographer William Mortensen in his book The Model:

The aim of this book is to give the student of photography some basis for self-criticism in his posing and arranging of the model. The basis of this criticism is necessarily largely negative-- as all worthwhile and useful criticism of creative work is bound to be. It is only weaklings and incompetents who plead for "constructive criticism." The constructive, positive part of any art-work must be furnished by the artist-pupil himself. The instructor or critic cannot "constructively" criticize a student's picture or story or symphony without, in effect, doing the work that the student should do. It is true that a presentable picture (or story, or symphony) may be thus produced: but it will be, fundamentally, the teacher’s accomplishment.

I think you basically have this issue in mind. When other people tell you what they think will improve your work, they are really, in essence, putting their own creative stamp on it. Sometimes their ideas may be good, but fundamentally those ideas are theirs, not yours.

This is not to say that I don't want to hear what others think of my work, or even their ideas for improving it, else I would not add "C&C welcome" to every picture I post on dgrin. But I consider everyone's comments from my own perspective and I don't make changes that I don't think suit what I want for the image.

anonymouscuban · December 3, 2009

craig_d wrote:

There is a wonderful statement about "constructive criticism" by the pre-WW2 photographer William Mortensen in his book The Model:
The aim of this book is to give the student of photography some basis for self-criticism in his posing and arranging of the model. The basis of this criticism is necessarily largely negative-- as all worthwhile and useful criticism of creative work is bound to be. It is only weaklings and incompetents who plead for "constructive criticism." The constructive, positive part of any art-work must be furnished by the artist-pupil himself. The instructor or critic cannot "constructively" criticize a student's picture or story or symphony without, in effect, doing the work that the student should do. It is true that a presentable picture (or story, or symphony) may be thus produced: but it will be, fundamentally, the teacher’s accomplishment.

I think you basically have this issue in mind. When other people tell you what they think will improve your work, they are really, in essence, putting their own creative stamp on it. Sometimes their ideas may be good, but fundamentally those ideas are theirs, not yours.

That is a great quote Craig and is exactly what I was trying to say. I need to find my own style of shooting and processing. Photography is a hobby and passion of mine. I don't make a living from it so ultimately, I am my own "customer". I should be creating images that I enjoy. Maybe one day it will turn into something more than a hobby and I think having my own style will only help.

Nikolai · December 3, 2009

craig_d wrote:

There is a wonderful statement about "constructive criticism" by the pre-WW2 photographer William Mortensen in his book The Model:
The aim of this book is to give the student of photography some basis for self-criticism in his posing and arranging of the model. The basis of this criticism is necessarily largely negative-- as all worthwhile and useful criticism of creative work is bound to be. It is only weaklings and incompetents who plead for "constructive criticism." The constructive, positive part of any art-work must be furnished by the artist-pupil himself. The instructor or critic cannot "constructively" criticize a student's picture or story or symphony without, in effect, doing the work that the student should do. It is true that a presentable picture (or story, or symphony) may be thus produced: but it will be, fundamentally, the teacher’s accomplishment.
I think you basically have this issue in mind. When other people tell you what they think will improve your work, they are really, in essence, putting their own creative stamp on it. Sometimes their ideas may be good, but fundamentally those ideas are theirs, not yours.

This is not to say that I don't want to hear what others think of my work, or even their ideas for improving it, else I would not add "C&C welcome" to every picture I post on dgrin. But I consider everyone's comments from my own perspective and I don't make changes that I don't think suit what I want for the image.

Great quote and

jeffmeyers · December 3, 2009

Right on, right on.

chuckinsocal · December 3, 2009

I started to get discouraged with my photography with all the criticisms I've received. Granted, it was all constructive, well intended criticism, but I started doubting that I'd ever get this photography thing right.

Then it dawned on me: Who do I have to please? Is it the critics? The people who are quick to point out how the work of others doesn't quite rise to their level of expertise, their standards, or their style? With all due respect to all the experienced and highly talented people here who offer their good advice for free, and I do admire their work and appreciate and learn from their comments, I think not.

How 'bout my audience? The people who actually view my work. I get a lot of positive feedback from them and they enjoy what I do, so I'm happy to please those people.

And, how 'bout myself? If I don't like a photo I've taken, and there are a lot of those, I simply trash it and it never sees the light of day. If I feel a photo has merit, and some have more merit than others, and I'm happy with it, then I post it for the world to see and I'm pleased.

I'm certainly not saying my work cannot be improved upon or benefit from some constructive criticism, but as long as my audience is pleased and I'm pleased, then I can feel good about my work.

Smithy · December 3, 2009

You just brilliantly said what I've been feeling myself... only difference is, you've gone farther down the path. I'm hoping to learn, improve, and make great images, but I hope to not get too drawn into expectations and formulas. Thanks for speaking your mind, I appreciate it because it gives me courage to keep doing my thing.

nightpixels · December 4, 2009

I think as long as it is done in a polite manner, I look at it as a constructive criticism and there are always things to learn from these kinds of interactions. Now, of course not anything anybody says needs to be incorporated into one's photograph. Only incorporate the ideas that you see fit your style. Sometimes there are minor (or even major) flaws that I have missed in my photographs and it's good to see if they will be detected by others or not, so it's not all that bad. Of course, the bottom line is, don't make these changes to make others happy, do it because you truly believe these changes will improve your photograph. If you don't think this would be the case, either argue against it or just ignore.

Aspecto5 · December 4, 2009

In my opinion, I just can't learn things like photoshop fast enough. Lots of people have a different view of processing an image and how far you should go, and I totally respect that. I love staring at simple images, as well as a complex one. My question would be, when is a persons style defined? Is it when you go into Walmart and buy a P&S and take pictures that are all centered and blurred? Or when you've bought your first DSLR and learned all that the manual has to show you? Maybe my outlook ends up being the same as everyone elses here. I love learning these new skills and applying them to my images. And I can honestly say that my final results are looking way better then when I first started photographing. And to say the least, I'm even more motivated now then I ever was. What is my style? I'm not sure. And I don't really look at it that way. I come up with a concept, and I work on it till I'm happy with it. I submit it to my fellow peers for critique and soak up everything they have to say. A lot of times I don't agree and continue on. Even my mentor I've disagreed with on occasion. Lol! Like I said, I probably end up with the same result as everyone else here. Shoot and process until you're happy with it. That's all there is to it.

Halite · December 4, 2009

Great topic!

It's a path we are all on as we move beyond simple snapshots or records of an experience: "I was there";"This is what I saw." Not that snapshots are bad: mementos of our experiences are quite enjoyable. Nevertheless, when we start thinking about photographs aesthetically, we end up asking ourselves questions like, "Why do I take pictures?", "Who is my audience?", "What is style?", "Am I any good or ever going to be any good?" It takes a fair amount of chutzpah to put our work in front of other photographers in answer to these questions.

One of the biggest things to avoid in this engagement is mindlessly following artistic rules offered up in response to our efforts.

These rules are offered up by experts or teachers as ways to achieve certain aesthetic goals while avoiding pitfalls along the way. They are typically the result of much careful observation, analysis and work. Trouble is when they get touted as a kind of orthodoxy, they require everyone to fall in line lockstep on the same path, resulting in a lot of the same type of work conforming to a narrow definition of beauty.

All creative rules should be approached with an open, questioning mind. Our artistic self should be like a two-year-old, constantly asking "Why?" Only then can we really know whether adhering to a rule is useful for the purpose of our particular creative endeavor. Playing around with following and ignoring the rules, and carefully observing the results, is a great way to train our instinctual approach to creativity. That way we develop beyond hit-or-miss results without falling into the rut of conformity.

I was taught this lesson when, living in Japan, I joined a university art club. As the only gaijin in the club, with limited Japanese ability, I had little idea what the club's focus was. When I showed up to the first few club meetings, I discovered that the club was engaged in drawing from replicas of classical busts. This was cool, since it could be a great way to study anatomy, how light and shadow define volumes and how to reproduce 3D in 2D. After several sessions of this, however, I was getting bored and antsy.

Then it was announced that the club was going on its annual weekend retreat to the mountains. I was thrilled to consider all the possibilities for artistic exploration in this new environment. But when we gathered to leave, my club members carefully wrapped the busts in protective padding and lugged them onto the train to the mountains! Arriving at a small, rural inn, the club members unwrapped the busts, closed the curtains to the mountain scenery and proceeded to draw the busts! Everyone. All weekend long.

But I just couldn't do it. It's not that I didn't want to be a good club member and do what the club was doing. I just couldn't work within the constraints of the club's activities and still explore what moved me artistically. I felt like I would've gone nuts stuck inside! So I went outside and drew mountains, fields, trees. When it got too dark to work outside, I came in and drew the club members drawing the busts. At the end of the weekend, we held a show of our work. Among the rows of carefully rendered busts, my drawings stuck out like a flamingo in a herd of holsteins. I admired the discipline and care exhibited in their works. They shook their heads and marvelled at my independence.

I tell this story not to mock those fellow artists. Many of them were much finer draftsmen than I ever could be. Their discipline and dedication to their exercises honed their skills. They taught me much about the importance of doing the groundwork necessary to ensure lack of technique doesn't limit the ability to express.

So, if you've made it this far, I thank you for sticking with me. Anonymouscuban's original question made me think of this story as a metaphor for the problem we face as artists: Conform to accepted standards or find our own way?

Non-conformity just for the sake of being different is as empty as blind conformity. Really, we do things our own way, develop our own style, because we just simply can't conform to accepted rules without going crazy!

The rules and accepted "wisdom" are nevertheless useful. We should never ignore the opportunity to hone our craft in pursuit of better communicating with our intended audience.

Jwar · December 4, 2009

Halite wrote:

The rules and accepted "wisdom" are nevertheless useful. We should never ignore the opportunity to hone our craft in pursuit of better communicating with our intended audience.

I hung in there Halite, well stated

.

I think it's part of growth from understanding the rules and accepted wisdoms, but wanting to mix it up a bit. Finding how far the limits can be pushed.

i'm still treading back and forth between following rules and trying to find my personal style, if i have any.

Qarik · December 4, 2009

depends on whom the audience is. Cookie cutter good is what many clients want and pay for when it comes to weddings, event, portraits, etc. When you shoot for youself ..do what you want. I think many of us are striving to become cookie cutter good 1st and foremost. and I think there is benefit to being cookie cutter good even for personal shooting because when and if you get tired of that..then that means in many ways you have a basic mastery of the technique and are familar with many styles. Then your own personal vision can start creeping in with full awareness.

mercphoto · December 4, 2009

Qarik wrote:

depends on whom the audience is. Cookie cutter good is what many clients want and pay for when it comes to weddings, event, portraits, etc. When you shoot for youself ..do what you want.

I was going to bring up something pretty much exactly like that. I shoot mainly for three people. The first is obviously myself, because if I don't like what I end up with I'll just stop doing it altogether. So I need to take shots that I personally like. The second is my wife, because I want her to like the photographs as well (especially when they are of family, friends, our vacations, etc.).

The last set of people I shoot for are my customers. And here I try to get a mix of what I like and what they like. If I don't like it I won't do it, but if they don't like it they won't buy it. So what I try to do is give them something they like but in a style of my own. An example is track day photography for cars and can be summed up with this comment in a public forum from a client of mine:

"I know I am not the only one that is thoroughly impressed with this photography work. I hardly ever buy track photos, as they are usually very redundant... the cars look like they are sitting still and the angles are relatively bland. Not the case with these at all!"

The typical track photographer will shoot with shutter speeds of 1/500 or higher. The keep-rate is going to be very high but as the person above states, the cars will look pretty stationary. I shoot my "keepers" at 1/250, then move to 1/160, and then to 1/80. I'll throw away about 50% of what I take but to me the results are much more interesting. The shots at 1/250 are reasonably close to what they normally expect from the 1/500+ guys, and the 1/160 and 1/80 shots are a noticeable departure from the norm and more to my own liking.

sdways01 · December 4, 2009

Personally, I think the feedback from other's is a great thing. It certainly doesn't have to be followed, but it is useful. If nothing else, it can get you thinking in different ways and about different things. Another person could suggest a new angle or method to try that will produce results that are better and you like better. Aspects of your image you may not have noticed can be pointed out showing you what you are doing right(which always makes you feel good) or something you didn't think of.

When taking feedback into account, if I don't think the change makes it look better, I don't do it. But sometimes, something is pointed out that makes you enjoy your own image more. And as someone who still has a ton to learn with photoshop, feedback could also lead me down a new learning path that will help me on all my images in the future.

As I don't take pictures for a living and have not sold a lot or done many paying jobs, I shoot almost completely for myself. I love going out and taking pictures and enjoy going back though the images remembering the experience later on. The original reason I got a SmugMug account was so I could see my pictures from anywhere with a computer on theinternet. Some people have told me the love my work, and I am sure there are plenty that think I am just another guy with a camera. If others like my pictures, great, but for the most part, only I have to like them.

As for making others happy, I have learned from feedback, mostly on my daily photos, I have no idea what it takes to make an image most people will like. I have taken pictures I think are great and will receive tons of feedback that don't even get a comment. And I have taken pictures that I think are just "OK" and gotten loads of comments about how great the photo is.

So my feelings are that you need to please yourself first, or it just isn't worth doing. This includes coming up with your own style so you don't feel like you are just another person in the crowd. But I also feel that our own style is ever changing as we try new things, learn new things, and see things in different ways. If things aren't changing as you do it, you aren't getting any better.

I am sure I have rambled on here and maybe not worded myself the best, but I hope that my points were understood.

AAABluestocking · December 5, 2009

It is a natural artistic route to copy the ones that have gone before you and synthesize it into your own style. Van Gogh copied the Flemish, the Japanese and if you look at his early Parisian work it looks like the others in the salon but after about two years he took the bits he liked and mixed it with his own quirkiness and came up with something entirely new. Which the mainstream hated because it was not like anything they had every seen before. It's strangeness scared the heck out of them and they hated it and said so.

This is something near and dear to my heart. Rembrandt learned from the Dutch Caravaggist so on and so forth. So copy those whom you like and when you're comfortable with that strike out on your own personal path.

chuckinsocal-it sounds like this is where you are right now. But of course you had to learn the rules in order to break them.

Maybe it's more intense in the collaborative/cross pollinating atmosphere of the internet where the lines of artist and viewer are becoming blurred?

Okay. I'm done with this soapbox if anybody else wants it now.

redleash · December 5, 2009

I've had this same discussion with other DGrinners during the past year. I am definitely in search of my "style" or, even more to the point, my subject matter. I find myself bouncing from one type of subject to another, sometimes based on something I've read or seen and sometimes because I think "I can take that same shot and sell it on a stock site" (which is likely the worst reason I could come up with for shooting something). Hopefully, most of my subjects are chosen because I like them or because they generate a thought or a memory for me when I'm in a certain place.

I work very hard to learn from more experienced people here, especially when it comes to the technical aspects of photography. I think I am able to cull out the comments that aren't helpful or that are simply a matter of artistic preference. I know that I can always get better at making photographs . . . but how do I keep myself as part of the process and the result? That's cuban's initial question in this thread and, from the number of responses, it's a popular one.

I live in a wonderful city with lots of photo ops. For now, I plan to keep exploring it and shooting what interests me. So, that settles the question of subject matter. But how do I do it in my style? Haven't figured that out yet. When I start hearing DGrinners say "That's a Redleash shot," then I will know I have a style.

Until then, I hope to hear some people say "nice shot" and to hear others say "have you tried it this way?" That's enough to encourage me and to help me learn. With that and a nice big "backyard" to go shoot in, I'll be fine.

Great thread--looking forward to reading more!

Lauren

bf2015 · December 6, 2009

I think as each of us move from P&S photographers to photographer artists, this is the battle that we all eventually and naturally arrive at. Some of us are content capturing the moment for posterity. But those of us who's passion is now involved in the process and not only want to capture the moment, but also wants to convey his/her personal artistic vision of the moment...that's different.

I look at this site and challenges as a photography class. Believe me, I need breaks every now and then. I've recently spent time on other sites, however, most of those sites are mostly P&S. HDR, over processing other than levels, etc aren't allowed. C&C on those sites is pretty much...nice shot...beautiful day...etc. To me, this is boring because it lacks passion and the indidualist interpretation that art brings. And that is what we strive to do here. It keeps me coming back.

I have always said that C&C is vital for growth when learning. And for me anyways, that is what I am here for. C&C can get frustrating at times, however, every now and then a suggestion comes in that clicks a light on and sends you in an entirely new and different direction that further shapes you and your style. I guess you could look at C&C like LR. Everybody knows that out of 100 shots, maybe 4 or 5 are keepers. Same with C&C. Eventually, we do find our style and voice that defines our art. And when we have, C&C becomes less of a factor.

Art is subjective, and because so, everybody sees it differently and has their own opinion. Just look at the art critic section at Barnes and Noble. This world would be so boring and black and white without everybodys' different style. Dragan is a great example (and btw-your Dragan entry earlier this year, Alex, is still one of my all-time favorites!). His art is his own style. Definitely not the norm, but wow!

But all-in-all, it comes down to one thing...why are you into photography? Do you want to make money at it? Or are you doing it for yourself? If you're doing it for yourself, then the best C&C is you lying in bed at the end of the day with a smile on your face not being able to sleep because you're busy thinking, "Wow! That was a great shot!" That says it all!

rteest42 · December 7, 2009

I'm with you....all of you...
This IS a very interesting, and important concept and topic for everyone.
I am on another forum, which I shan't name, thanks, but I find that there, there is a certain beating down, a "you are NOT GOOD ENOUGH".

People pick at skin tone like it's a disease. They frown on 'incorrect' white balance in one post, which could or could not REALLY be an issue or merely someones monitor, while posting a nice image that has been over processed with the latest action that fades images to look like they belong in 1975.

They all strive to become PROFESSIONALS, and want to have a business photographing newborns, for example.

And yet, while the photos are technically good (and who doesn't ooh and aah at squishy baby cheeks?) they look THE SAME. Same props. Same poses. Same colors. They scream, " I was born in 2009, when pom pom hats and blue and brown where the rage"...

Can I replicate? Certainly, if I had the equipment (and the baby)

.... Would a parent love them? Sure, as long as it was THEIR baby... But, looking at their work, I can't tell which photog shot which baby without their logo.

Its the same with senior pix, or family Christmas photos ....

I am a quilter as well... and I see the TRENDY thing this year is "x".... and the trendy color is "y" and EVERYONE makes things that look similar.

Do I ignore nice fabrics? (not on your life)

Do I rush to put all those 2009 date stamped fabrics together, so I have the quilt on the cover of the magazine? Heck, no.

I purchase swirly teal and orange now, while it's available. I use it when I find a worthy quilt...maybe in 3 or 4 years....

In the same way, I LEARN about white balance, and what MY personal level of obsession over precisely, technically perfect white balance, and I store that information. I use the part of me that is the ARTIST however, when I decide if I will over or under-correct.....

I shoot from the angle I like, I compose in the manner that pleases me, and I am happy to know that I am making my own, informed "mistakes"....

Grampa Doug · December 7, 2009

All,
Please don't get too bent on finding your "style". Experiment & Evolve. Your "style" is your eye. Put your eye behind the viewfinder and look, look hard. When that "oh my, that's interesting" moment happens, you'll know it and your index finger will go into overdrive. So is composition the only path to "style"? You're only halfway there. The mordern day darkroom is now a computer and with the tools available to us all our imagination is our only limitation. Consider Photoshop as a chisel to carve a masterpiece from a pile of O & 1's. Use the tools and learn how they work and your "statement" will start to evolve as you master them, then find a new tool to work with, see what happens. Your "style" is already there, the challenge is to learn how to communicate your vision.

HoofClix · December 7, 2009

The answer here all depends upon where you are in the process of running-'round-the-tree....

Doesn't one have to learn how to write a sonnet before one is able to write a sonnet? Can one get to the point where writing sonnets is a simple thing, then write lots of nice sonnets before suddenly forgetting completely how to write a sonnet? Thereby needing to somehow go back to learn once again how to write a sonnet??

Sometimes its a big tree we find ourselves running around. I sometimes am running so fast that I see an @$$ up ahead, only to realize that it's just me. In those times I just slow down, sometimes switch to another tree, but eventually I always get back to running around that tree...

OK, so what I'm really trying to say is that we go through cycles, and sometimes we need to accept where we are in the cycle but always keep pushing forward.. learning, incorporating, creating, busting free, falling flat, standing back up, dusting off, investigating, learning....

899

Personal vs. Popular Style: Where Do You Draw the Line?

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