Useage of Monolights at Weddings? And Contract Help

Jeremy Winterberg · December 12, 2009

There are two parts to this thread: Part 1 - Monolights, Part 2 - Contracts
---- Part 1
So, I've always wanted to know the answer to this question. :rolleyes

Do you use studio monolights - such as AB800s - when shooting a wedding? Also how do you use them? IE Do you use them during the ceremony... or like only during formals/bride and groom portraits... or at the reception as well? :oogle

Or do you just completely forget about monolights and only use speedlights? :huh

I'm asking this because I am purchasing some AB800s for my studio. However, I am wondering if I could get some use out of them for wedding photography as well. Or would it be too much of a hassle to set them up for everything? Either way speedlights will be brought with, but the addition of monolights... would this be beneficial? :scratch

I ask alot of questions... but I'm just trying to soak it all in. And guessing is never the right thing to do... especially when it comes to a serious event like a wedding. I have my first wedding as the primary photog coming up in May (doing it for a low budget friend, so it will be chill, but great portfolio building right there). :thumb:ivar

---- Part 2

Also, if anyone could help me out with a contract I could use some help... I'm working on one right now, I read a couple threads on here but there isn't any solid info really. I don't have the money to consult a lawyer at the moment. send me a PM if you can help out. I'm shooting the wedding for free, and I don't want any bridges to be burned if anything goes wrong. :dunno

A great example here is, my best friend just got married in August this year. He was on a tight budget... and had a friend photograph the wedding for free. The friend didn't backup the pictures, and his hard drive crashed. My friend never even got to see the photos from his wedding day. (I just found this out today - I feel so bad for my friend, and I cannot believe the photog didn't back them up in separate places.)

My friend is extremely upset with his friend. Although he doesn't want to take him to court, he did mention that his Mother-In-Law is thinking about hiring a hitman if he doesn't send the hard drive in to recover what they can off it. :rofl

Sad thing is I didn't even get to go to his wedding :cry He's my best friend from when I lived in Canada for 5 years, and to fly from Wisconsin to New Brunswick, Canada would've been over $800 round trip. For those that don't know their Providences, go to Maine... then keep going East... Thats where New Brunswick is.

emeraldrose · December 12, 2009

well I'm no expert of course and others can probably give you better feedback as I'm just starting to get in to the wedding aspect myself. BUT I've been to a few weddings and they go have monolights set up both in the church and at the reception. the last wedding i went to they had 2 with silver bowl reflectors (that's how i'm describing it and i'm sticking to it

).

Also in many photog contracts we have in there that we can't be held responsible past the money paid for loss of images, you just never know what something crazy could happen.

Art Scott · December 12, 2009

Part 1 comments only:

i used to carry my WL5000's to weddings and set them up and then tape all the extension cables down and afix the light stands to the pews the were sitting next to...so they could not be knocked over....man that was a PIA ....seriously and that was before I knew I need liability insurance or an assistant to help set up and strike (tear down the equipment)......then I went to sunpak 622's on light stands........now it will be Nikon SB900's .......but the most important factor is.....you must have liability insurance.............
2nd important factor is at least 1 assistant to help keep you moving along in a timely manner....so setting up and striking is not a total kill me rush thing to go from sanctuary to reception and be there and set up before B/G arrives.....so if going with portable lighting...take 2 set ups one for sanctuary and one for reception hall......set up reception before any shooting at church....so your day will start early run long and hard:D:D

This might be a time for a PPA membership......to get insurance discounts and the like..............

Weisel · December 12, 2009

Monolights are definately used in many receptions, and also for formals. Not so sure how often they get used in churches. Many top photog's use them in receptions and get some very cool trick shots out of them. You can line yourself up on opposite side of room from your light, and use remote trigger to make a burst of light in between the b/g as they dance, or during guest dancing, etc. It makes a dramatic movie type looking photo. Of course, you can use it simply to light up a shot in standard ways.

The last wedding I shot, the reception was under a large white canvas tent basically, and we were in bounce flash mode all night, and it was amazing. We used Canon 580's and bounced right off the ceiling for perfect lighting. I could not ask for better lighting than I had from just that(and the various colored dance lights that were there helping)

I have one AB800 and plan to get another ASAP. They are great for weddings.

Nikolai · December 12, 2009

I'd say the biggest problem with any stationary lights at the wedding is that you will need a trained assistant or second photog who can set them up quickly. You yourself, as a primary, may not have enough time for it. Other than that, depending on the venue/locations, you may or may not need them for any part of the wedding, starting from getting ready, through the ceremony, possibly for formals and likely for reception. It also depends on your personal style and many other things...

tenoverthenose · December 12, 2009

As for lighting, I love to through lots of light around no matter where it comes from. At weddings I regularly use battery power flashes, monolights, and even flash lights. Light is light plain and simple. However, it takes much longer to rig up a monolight than a speedlight which is why I normally reach for a speedlight. Also, speedlights can be dialed down to a much lower power which is far more useful for your average wedding.

But there are times when I just can't get enough power out of my speedlights--thats when I get the monolight. Normally the monolight stays in my car, ready to go if I need it. BTW, I use an AB 1600 because I need more power, so you might want to skip the AB 800. If they made an AB 3200 that would be my light....

As to your contract, there are pre-made contracts available to purchase that can be modified for your needs. I know you said you are doing it for free, but there are still costs of doing business.

mmmatt · December 12, 2009

Nikolai wrote:

I'd say the biggest problem with any stationary lights at the wedding is that you will need a trained assistant or second photog who can set them up quickly. You yourself, as a primary, may not have enough time for it. Other than that, depending on the venue/locations, you may or may not need them for any part of the wedding, starting from getting ready, through the ceremony, possibly for formals and likely for reception. It also depends on your personal style and many other things...

yeah, this is key. It is a pita to be working with monolights. When you are shooting without a GOOD assistant it is a rough road. that being said, and as Ten has said it is a nice luxury to have all that light. 90% of the time I am perfectly satisfied with my 2 (580exII) speedlights but there are times, and especially with big, deeply posed groups that you want to shoot at a higher f-stop than what your speedlights can accommodate in a cavernous church. That is when having some extra juice would be nice. The effects that weisel is talking about can all be done with a speedlight on a stand no problem.

If you are balancing your budget and really want to focus on location work I would disregard the alien bee's and invest in more speedlights. You can run 2 speedlights to an umbrella and get a ton of juice out of them that way. With proper speedlights you can also save a ton of time by using remote ettl. Manual lights are great for static shooting but when you are moving around at an event you need to do things quickly, and without an assistant and time to do some flash metering you are just taking stabs in the dark and praying you are within the boundaries of raw processing. Speedlights, although not as sexy as a set of bee's, can do fine in the studio too.

Matt

**edit to say** The iso capabilities of your body come into play here also. If you are shooting a body that is only good to 400 iso without being a grainfest then you need to look at getting a better body or get more light. Many nice bodies these days that shoot stellar up to 1600iso and over and that is a huge help for location work.

sweet caroline · December 12, 2009

I use Nikon flashes. They are lightweight, can be put on stands with a diffuser or umbrella, and can even be handheld off camera if I need to be ultra quick to get shots. They also work well in a studio set-up in umbrellas.

I would think the speed lights would be a more practical investment for shooting a wedding.

I did a search on contracts and found some samples online when I was creating mine. Then I had my s-i-l, the attorney, look it over.

Caroline

Jeremy Winterberg · December 12, 2009

Art Scott wrote:

but the most important factor is.....you must have liability insurance.............
2nd important factor is at least 1 assistant to help keep you moving along in a timely manner....so setting up and striking is not a total kill me rush thing to go from sanctuary to reception and be there and set up before B/G arrives.....so if going with portable lighting...take 2 set ups one for sanctuary and one for reception hall......set up reception before any shooting at church....so your day will start early run long and hard:D:D

This might be a time for a PPA membership......to get insurance discounts and the like..............

I am going to ask a few of my photog friends if they would like to second shoot at the wedding/assist me. So that aspect will be taken care of. I understand that it would be a TON of running back and forth and setting up etc...

I was thinking about getting a PPA membership, but it is a lot of money. And I dont exactly have a steady income from my photography right now to pay for insurance...

Thanks for your input, its given me important factors to think about.

Jeremy Winterberg · December 12, 2009

Weisel wrote:

The last wedding I shot, the reception was under a large white canvas tent basically, and we were in bounce flash mode all night, and it was amazing. We used Canon 580's and bounced right off the ceiling for perfect lighting. I could not ask for better lighting than I had from just that(and the various colored dance lights that were there helping)

I wish every wedding, event, etc.. was under a white tent. It would be so much easier. I don't have specifics from the B&G yet, but I'm going to talk to them as soon as I get this contract perfect. If their venue is gonna be under a tent I will forget about taking the Alien Bees altogether.

I found a contract online that I tweaked a little last night. well, this morning... I didn't go to sleep till like 6 am...

was watching a movie with a friend and then a butt load of ideas rushed through my head and I couldn't sleep... so I came to dgrin, my always available, super addictive, free of charge idea processor and sleeping pill after I'm finished.

Jeremy Winterberg · December 12, 2009

mmmatt wrote:

yeah, this is key. It is a pita to be working with monolights. When you are shooting without a GOOD assistant it is a rough road. that being said, and as Ten has said it is a nice luxury to have all that light. 90% of the time I am perfectly satisfied with my 2 (580exII) speedlights but there are times, and especially with big, deeply posed groups that you want to shoot at a higher f-stop than what your speedlights can accommodate in a cavernous church. That is when having some extra juice would be nice. The effects that weisel is talking about can all be done with a speedlight on a stand no problem.

If you are balancing your budget and really want to focus on location work I would disregard the alien bee's and invest in more speedlights. You can run 2 speedlights to an umbrella and get a ton of juice out of them that way. With proper speedlights you can also save a ton of time by using remote ettl. Manual lights are great for static shooting but when you are moving around at an event you need to do things quickly, and without an assistant and time to do some flash metering you are just taking stabs in the dark and praying you are within the boundaries of raw processing. Speedlights, although not as sexy as a set of bee's, can do fine in the studio too.

Matt

**edit to say** The iso capabilities of your body come into play here also. If you are shooting a body that is only good to 400 iso without being a grainfest then you need to look at getting a better body or get more light. Many nice bodies these days that shoot stellar up to 1600iso and over and that is a huge help for location work.

This is exactly what I was going for, using them for large groups to get the desired f/stop and shutter speed needed.

Although I'm sure a bunch of speedlights would be fine, I think it would be more work to go around and change EACH one of them. With the AB, I'm thinking about getting the Commander trigger which allows me to change the settings of the flash from camera with no cables.

I have been using speedlights in my studio for a while now, but I find its not enough power when I go outside. Especially mid-day when a client only can do the shoot at that time. I'm not sure why it didn't work well, but the 580exII I had wasn't enough power

...

I shoot with a D300 now, and pro Nikkor glass. It works amazingly well with High ISO shots up to 3200iso. And even if your camera can't handle high iso, if you expose the picture correctly you don't have noise issues anyways... no matter what camera you use.

I will consider getting more speedlights vs a couple AB's but, I'm pretty much set on the AB800s.. and I have been for several months now.

And this is for mmmatt and sweet caroline: what speedlights would you recommend for Nikon. I have a budget of $600 for lights... I'm not saying I'm going to change my mind to speedlights, but I need to know what I could get, best bang for buck, with them. I know there are the vivitar 285HV's, but are those even worth it?

Nikolai · December 12, 2009

Jeremy Winterberg wrote:

...With the AB, I'm thinking about getting the Commander trigger which allows me to change the settings of the flash from camera with no cables...

Jeremy, I'm sorry, but it's a pipe dream. Weddings are events crazy enough to just shoot them properly. Studio lights require careful metering to get the full advantage of them. Especially careful if you have to balance the ambient, deal with multiple lights, etc.

I think I'm failry experienced in building complicated light fields and I'm telling you: it takes a cool head, experience, lightmeter (naturally), zero distraction and about 10-15 minutes. You can do it BEFORE the wedding, but changing several settings DURING.... sorry man, not gonna happen...

Jeremy Winterberg · December 12, 2009

Nikolai wrote:

I think I'm failry experienced in building complicated light fields and I'm telling you: it takes a cool head, experience, lightmeter (naturally), zero distraction and about 10-15 minutes. You can do it BEFORE the wedding, but changing several settings DURING.... sorry man, not gonna happen...

Makes sense. I've used alien bees at my work, but am no where near as experienced as you (I get to take the passport photos

). I kind of figured it would be too difficult to chimp and shoot with monolights. Which is why I'm not even sure if I would use them at a wedding, other than large group formals.

Either way I'm getting 2 AB800's... I'm just trying to see how they COULD be used at a wedding.

tenoverthenose · December 12, 2009

Not to start a pissing match here...

But I use my AB1600 at weddings when I need the power. Working with it only takes longer than my speedlights because it is larger and heavier (also it requires a vagabond). I can't carry it on a lightstand over my shoulder in the same way I can a speedlight. This is why it normally stays in my car, I'm lazy. I also shoot most of my weddings without an assistant, so the less I have to schlep around the better.

Once it's on a stand, I can work with it just as fast as a speedlight. I can't remember the last time I used my light meter (I stopped carrying it in my bag a year or two ago) because its just not necessary. Thanks to our LCD screens and histograms I can nail a perfect exposure in no more than three test shots. Generally speaking, before I even reach for my AB1600 I have a pretty good idea of how much power I want from it and the proper exposure at my camera.

Nikolai · December 12, 2009

Jeremy Winterberg wrote:

Either way I'm getting 2 AB800's... I'm just trying to see how they COULD be used at a wedding.

Remember of their 10% discount for accessories if you buy two lights (20% if you buy four) . If you don't have funds now, I suggest postpoinging the lights purchase until you have some extra dough for the accessories, so you can use this discount. Grids, gels, softboxes, etc....They add up quickly, and getting any discount off them is a nice thing to have:-)

Jeremy Winterberg · December 12, 2009

Nikolai wrote:

Remember of their 10% discount for accessories if you buy two lights (20% if you buy four) . If you don't have funds now, I suggest postpoinging the lights purchase until you have some extra dough for the accessories, so you can use this discount. Grids, gels, softboxes, etc....They add up quickly, and getting any discount off them is a nice thing to have:-)

Thats the nice thing about being a student... I get 10% discount on everything, all the time...

so I don't really have to worry about getting all of the accessories right away.

emeraldrose · December 14, 2009

Jeremy Winterberg wrote:

I am going to ask a few of my photog friends if they would like to second shoot at the wedding/assist me. So that aspect will be taken care of. I understand that it would be a TON of running back and forth and setting up etc...

I was thinking about getting a PPA membership, but it is a lot of money. And I dont exactly have a steady income from my photography right now to pay for insurance...

Thanks for your input, its given me important factors to think about.

Make suer you train your assistants in how you want them to deal with diff. situations, this was my kiss of death for some shots, bc my assistant wasn't paying attention to me, but the ceremony and so didn't move when I needed her to and she was on the complete other side so I couldn't move over there.

mmmatt · December 14, 2009

Jeremy Winterberg wrote:

This is exactly what I was going for, using them for large groups to get the desired f/stop and shutter speed needed.

Although I'm sure a bunch of speedlights would be fine, I think it would be more work to go around and change EACH one of them. With the AB, I'm thinking about getting the Commander trigger which allows me to change the settings of the flash from camera with no cables.

I have been using speedlights in my studio for a while now, but I find its not enough power when I go outside. Especially mid-day when a client only can do the shoot at that time. I'm not sure why it didn't work well, but the 580exII I had wasn't enough power ...

I shoot with a D300 now, and pro Nikkor glass. It works amazingly well with High ISO shots up to 3200iso. And even if your camera can't handle high iso, if you expose the picture correctly you don't have noise issues anyways... no matter what camera you use.

I will consider getting more speedlights vs a couple AB's but, I'm pretty much set on the AB800s.. and I have been for several months now.

And this is for mmmatt and sweet caroline: what speedlights would you recommend for Nikon. I have a budget of $600 for lights... I'm not saying I'm going to change my mind to speedlights, but I need to know what I could get, best bang for buck, with them. I know there are the vivitar 285HV's, but are those even worth it?

I far prefer ettl flash for events. The 285s are a great flash but they are not ettl. You can use the thrystor on them, but I don't think that does you much good with multiple lights. I use the 580 exII's and I think the comparable Nikon is the sb800. I have 2 and am going to be picking up a 3rd before next season. Currently I use 1 on camera and one off camera for groups. With the canon system I can control up to 2 more flashes through the 580 on camera. It would be my intention to mount 2 on a single stand and still use my on camera as front fill. I can ratio right from the lcd screen on the flash and it is super easy to get good results.

My issue with monolights is both the lack of ettl and the electrical cords... moving a stand is moving a stand so not a huge deal but when you are tethered to the wall it is now a pita. Electrical cords run from the opposite wall around the feet of your "audience", draped around the pews... P I T A if you need to move your lights more than a couple of feet. There are decent batt packs that you can run monolights from but they are big, cumbersome, and costly.

Try it Jeremy! Try both ways and see what you like best. If you buy Bee's or quality speedlights you can easily sell them without too much of a loss. Quality equiptment doen't get discounted too much from new pricing if it is in mint condition. If you do prefer working with the monolights just be sure that as soon as you are in a pressure situation where you need to perform quickly you can be prepared to work with ettl and batteries.

If you want to be bouncing, you will need ttl for that and if you want to work quickly outdoors using acurate fill flash you will be best off with ettl for that.

In my opinion you need 2 (one for a backup or as 2nd off camera) of the best on-camera flashes you can find just to shoot events. In Nikon I assume that is the sb800's. When you say $600 budget for lights does that mean you already have quality flashes or you are deciding between buying monolights and no speedlights vs speedlights and no monolights? If you are thinking of forgoing quality speedlights for the bee's I would have to wholeheartedly tell you it is a mistake if you intend on marketing yourself as a wedding photographer. Good on-camera flash is a must for pro wedding work IMO. The monolights would possibly be a nice addition but not your bread and butter for sure. With Nikon flash units (possibly others that are made for the Nikon system) you don't need to purchase remotes unless you are using them outdoors since they have built in IR remote capabilities like my Canon's do.

Matt

Jeremy Winterberg · December 14, 2009

I have an SB-600... for the wedding I plan on purchasing an additional SB-900 or two (The best Nikon makes now - I may rent them though) and using those speedlights. However I did placed the order for alien bees today.

I am trying to move into wedding photography... But I don't think I'm gonna be getting a huge amount of wedding work RIGHT away. Obviously because I'm just starting out. I do have a wedding in May, and I have a meeting with a couple on the 18th about their wedding in June. But that is not fo sho yet.

I got the Alien Bees now, because I have some portrait work lined up in the coming months. So that will bring in money for the speedlights.

Just got done shooting the engagement session for the wedding in May... gonna edit those and post em up here! I guess this is my little teaser.

Cmau · December 19, 2009

SB-900 is definitely the way to go. I have an SB-600 and it really doesn't have the necessary juice to bounce off walls/ceilings and get you the right exposures. 600 is a decent backup to a 900 though. (Get a 900 over an 800 for sure, since the 900 rotates 180 degrees in both directions, and the 800 (and 600) only goes 90 degrees to the right - death for portrait orientation shots where you want to bounce behind you!

mmmatt · December 19, 2009

Cmau wrote:

SB-900 is definitely the way to go. I have an SB-600 and it really doesn't have the necessary juice to bounce off walls/ceilings and get you the right exposures. 600 is a decent backup to a 900 though. (Get a 900 over an 800 for sure, since the 900 rotates 180 degrees in both directions, and the 800 (and 600) only goes 90 degrees to the right - death for portrait orientation shots where you want to bounce behind you!

yeah... you need that sucker to rotate 360 deg to effectively wall bounce. Shows how much I know about Nikon! Not everyone likes to wall bounce, but for me and a few other oddballs out there it is a go to lighting technique indoors.

Matt

NateWagner · December 19, 2009

of course you can just rotation the camera in the other direction when you shoot the portrait (I.E. clockwise instead of counter clockwise) thus allowing you to bounce off the back wall as you desire. This is particularly ideal if you aren't using a gripped camera anyway because the hand holding position is more stable than having one hand over the camera with the elbow sticking way out.

Useage of Monolights at Weddings? And Contract Help

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