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Blunt critique and feeling good
rutt
Registered Users Posts: 6,511 Major grins
I stopped and took a deep breath and took a look at myself today. I spent almost 1/2 an hour critiquing one image of Richard's and the feedback wasn't really positive. I hope it was constructive. I learned something while I did it as well.
How did that make Richard feel? Probably not as good as if I had just spent 15 seconds and said, "love that shot". And maybe not that much different than if I had said, "doesn't work for me." He served up a piece of himself and I didn't think it was delicious. Ouch.
It's a truism around here that we are here to learn and that honest critique is more valuable than empty positive praise. It's more valuable to learn how an image could have been better than to be told how great it is.
But do any of us really believe this completely? For many of us, posting pictures on dgrin reaches the largest audience we are going to get. It's the equivalent of showing in a gallery. We want applause, darn it, not blunt, albeit constructive, critique. I know I do. When I post something and get a dozen positives and no real negatives, well, let's just say it can make my day. When someone points out a flaw or suggests an alternative I didn't see, well, I do try to internalize in order to do better next time. But it doesn't make my day in the same way.
This is a long winded prelude to my real point. It's easy to lose the forest for the trees. How have we progressed as photographers over a longer period, one that includes many individual images and posts here on dgrin? Really that's the thing to feel good about (or not.) When I take 1/2 hour to critique, well, that means I think the photographer (if not the specific image perhaps) deserves it. I partly gauge this by the growth I've seen here. On the other hand, if I offer honest critique and the photographer argues with me and rejects it, well, it makes me a lot less likely to look at his or her work again, let alone commenting.
I think B.D.'s end of the year exercise is a great opportunity for us all to look at how we've changed over the year and take stock. What did we learn? How does our best from this year compare to our best from previous years? Each image is just a sentence in a long novel. Looking back is a great way to try to discern the plot.
How did that make Richard feel? Probably not as good as if I had just spent 15 seconds and said, "love that shot". And maybe not that much different than if I had said, "doesn't work for me." He served up a piece of himself and I didn't think it was delicious. Ouch.
It's a truism around here that we are here to learn and that honest critique is more valuable than empty positive praise. It's more valuable to learn how an image could have been better than to be told how great it is.
But do any of us really believe this completely? For many of us, posting pictures on dgrin reaches the largest audience we are going to get. It's the equivalent of showing in a gallery. We want applause, darn it, not blunt, albeit constructive, critique. I know I do. When I post something and get a dozen positives and no real negatives, well, let's just say it can make my day. When someone points out a flaw or suggests an alternative I didn't see, well, I do try to internalize in order to do better next time. But it doesn't make my day in the same way.
This is a long winded prelude to my real point. It's easy to lose the forest for the trees. How have we progressed as photographers over a longer period, one that includes many individual images and posts here on dgrin? Really that's the thing to feel good about (or not.) When I take 1/2 hour to critique, well, that means I think the photographer (if not the specific image perhaps) deserves it. I partly gauge this by the growth I've seen here. On the other hand, if I offer honest critique and the photographer argues with me and rejects it, well, it makes me a lot less likely to look at his or her work again, let alone commenting.
I think B.D.'s end of the year exercise is a great opportunity for us all to look at how we've changed over the year and take stock. What did we learn? How does our best from this year compare to our best from previous years? Each image is just a sentence in a long novel. Looking back is a great way to try to discern the plot.
If not now, when?
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There are two reasons I post images to DGrin; 1) to have my work seen and 2) to get harsh, intense, honest critique. You might have noticed, I don't like commenting in my own threads and on my images. I've also not been prolific commenting on other's images recently, but I'll be working on that again in the new year. What I have been doing is reading comments on and looking at lots and lots of images.
As someone still learning how to handle a camera, I learn as much by looking at other's images and the critique by the community. I have to say honestly, "Great Shot" comments don't help. If it's a great shot, I'd like to understand why you thought it was a great shot. That will help me learn how to understand when one of my shots might be great too.
Which brings me to B.D.'s exercise. I've taken something around 10,000 images this year, 9,900 of which are basically duds. I think I've improved over the last year, but I am a crap editor of my own work. Coming up with three images that are my best for the year is nigh, near impossible. Not that I have that many good images, just that I'm probably not the right person to choose.
I have to partially disagree, or maybe I should rephrase that - I've adopted a different set of guidelines for myself in regard to critique.
First though I'd like to say that I respect and truly appreciate a 30 minute well thought reply to a post. I really do!
But over the years on Dgrin (and yes, I've been around for many years although dormant for periods of time), I too have realized "For many of us, posting pictures on dgrin reaches the largest audience we are going to get. It's the equivalent of showing in a gallery. We want applause, darn it, not blunt, albeit constructive, critique."
So on one hand posters have great expectations.
On the other hand I am no professor of either art nor photojournalism. My opinion is subjective. I may like something or I might not. It may move me or not. Most of the time it has nothing to do with photo - it's me. So who am I to to bluntly critique someone else's post or images, especially when there are those on the forums who are able to do it in such an articulate way as to not embarrass or insult the original poster (something that I have done in the past probably many times and I apologize).
When an image does nothing for me I don't comment. When an image moves me I comment - sometimes it's only a
Having said all that I am now going to pour out some global criticism; there are so many photos posted on this forum that have nothing to do with "Street & Photojournalism" in my opinion. Posts and images in this forum need to tell a story you went out to get. Fantastic family photos are beautiful but they're neither street nor photojournalism. You can't wait for them to come to you. You need to get of your butt, gather some courage and go out to get them! Confront people. Interview them. Learn something new about them. Take photos. And them come here to "Street & Photojournalism" and tell us about it.
Nir Alon
images of my thoughts
I agree with this completely. I honestly LOVE reading about how my work can be at the next level with a little more effort. I realize this is a subjective art and that everyone who looks at one of my images will view it differently and have a different appreciation for it or maybe even dislike it completely. The beautiful thing about that for me though, is that given the diverse group who will be looking and commenting I am sure to obtain a wealth of different criticisms, pointers, tips, and new ideas to potential further my ability in this craft I love so much.
To me, a couple bits of criticism, however harsh, are well worth being able to sit in front of my latest downloaded set of images and be really, truly happy with them. To be able to stop deleting so many images that I "thought" I had shot correctly and to rather "know" they came out well and move on. So far, the helpful hints and constrcutive criticism I've received and read that has been given to other's work (even more effective potentially because I don't get any personal "emotional" result) has simply made me a better photographer.
For that, I am eternally thankful and I will continue to ask for and welcome C&C no matter how blunt, harsh and likely true it may be. It will make me better. I have always been taught; "There is always someone better at a given thing than you are. The ONLY way to insure that you continue to progress, never stop learning and have a chance of becoming the best is to learn from those who are better, more advance and more knowledgeable than you".
When you step into the world of art and present your work for viewing you must have a somewhat thick skin and be open for criticism. If you are unwilling to bend, accept the helpful critiques and throw away the ones you completely disagree with, you'll never grow. That is what I love so much about this site. My work and abilities have already grown in the short time I've been here and have been reading. That growth has come from the pages and pages of constructive criticisms and posts on good technique. KEEP IT COMING!!!
I too, spend much of my time simply reading, perusing and gathering as much information as I can. The amount of knowledge here is mind-boggling and has made me better already. I look forward to continuing to read everyone's &C and continuing my journey as a photog.
http://nikonic1.smugmug.com/
The fact is, if I'm the type of person that wants nothing but 30-minute critiques then I will likely shrug off anything less. If I'm the type of person who wants nothing more than pats on the back then I will likely stop posting around here. If I'm the type of person, though, who appreciates all thoughts, big or small or good or bad or positive or negative, then I'm likely to stay and learn far more about myself and my photography than the person standing beside me.
Why is it taboo for an amateur to defend their work? We have a good many wonderful photographers frequenting this forum yet I can't think of a single one that has not posted a dud. There is also not one whom I have not disagreed with. That experience, I'm sure, is not reserved for other people's photos, however. Someday B.D. is going to say something that I disagree with about one of my pictures. Should I just accept that he is right and move on? What if he's wrong? What if it's completely subjective?
I apologize for snagging this comment out of your otherwise thoughtful post, Rutt, but this is something I feel strongly about.
A very good post, and I agree entirely, although I'm not sure if the whole thing made it to the board (it seems to me that it was cut short…)
My only criterion of a good picture is whether or not it makes me say "…I wish I'd taken that!". The analysis comes after…
…like, "how did they achieve that?" or "why did they do that?". I think my views have not necessarily changed in the last year, but perhaps I've become more open-minded; after all art is so subjective!
Great post! Thanks for bringing it up!
- Wil
I guess I have something very specific in mind here. Just as there are more or less constructive ways to give critique, there are also more or less constructive ways to respond to it.
Actually the opposite. I left a little sentence I was playing with that didn't make the final cut (or shouldn't have.)
Here you make a comment if you feel you have anything constructive (positive or negative) to say or just that you feel sufficiently moved to comment or both.
Where possible compliments and criticism should be constructive and should be of benefit to the shooter by describing how/why the shot could/might be improved. The act of crtitiqueing should also be of benefit to the reviewer in terms of having to critically evaluate and articulate why they like/dislike a particular shot.
If you just want to say
It's great that this category exists at all and even better that it has its own mentor in B.D. Colen. Long live street & pj !
The virtue of the camera is not the power it has to transform the photographer into an artist, but the impulse it gives him to keep on looking. - Brook Atkinson- 1951
I'm often strapped for time but still try to get on dgrin as much as possible, sometimes with a kid on my lap and food burning on the stove, or when I have a spare moment at work, so my replies are not always phrased correctly and are rushed. If I waited to comment until there was time, I'd be asleep.
I have learned not to comment negatively on shots though because being new (6 months this week with a DSLR and the realization that I want to learn photography) I don't have much of a background to give negative feedback. Felt foolish when I did it.
When I really like a shot though I try to be detailed as to why it works for me or moves me personally. I figure I can't go wrong with that.
Starting to ramble, must go for my fourth cup of coffee soon.
Just so very glad this forum is here and for all your comments, even if sometimes it looks like I may just glimpse at them, I do learn from them and they are appreciated.
Can't wait to go through my last 6 months worth of photos and pick my best three for B.D.'s new project or assignment.
Thanks all.
_________
There are also at least two sides to the photo: the photographer and the viewer. When I post a shot here, there usually is some intent to the photo that encompasses MY life experiences. I recognize that many (most?) viewers will not have similar enough experiences for me to strike an emotional chord with the photo. When I view photos, I always try to discern why they shot and chose to post this photo and slowly learn about the photographer (even if I do not like that person's style or subject matter). If I do not relate to the photo, I usually will not post feedback.
The other side are the viewers. They are seeing the photo based on THEIR life experiences (photographic and otherwise). So their comments should be understood as no more or less valid than the photographer who posted the image (this is different than valuing the opinions of the more learned and serious critiquers. For example, I recognize most of the posters in this thread and will always view their photos and posts and value their opinion).
Unfortunately, this gallery appears to be gaining a reputation as a no-holds barred place where one posts at one's own peril. People are almost apologetic if they post in color. I believe others are hesitant to test the waters here BECAUSE of what rutt stated: it sure feels better to get positive feedback, enough to "make my day". If people post their best and it gets "shot down", why would they want to return?
I do usually "explain" myself (regarding the photo) once I get some feedback/criticism. Just like blunt, honest criticism (with the intent of helping the poster improve) can be wrongly interpreted, so can an explanation of intent (even if not achieved) be interpreted as "arguing and rejecting the advice".
So understanding needs to occur from both poster and viewer. A thick skin is needed. But so is the choice of words to sound positive and helpful when offering the criticism. Some here can take it, perhaps due to the high level of their art. Others can be driven off because they are taking the risk of offering something they value and believing that the feedback they get is the final word on how valued their work is.
I don't understand this. When I go out with the intention of capturing "street" shots, I have nothing preconceived in mind. I'm looking for opportunity to jump out at me. Most likely, I'm in an area where there are people who might be likely subjects.
I'm going to cruise by tattoo parlors, biker bars, or the section of town where bag ladies might be. I'm not going to bother with sitting outside of JC Penny's. There might be a shot there, but the more fruitful location is most likely a different location.
Perhaps I don't understand your definition of "street". "Street", to me, is candid shots of people who have some character or interest beyond the ordinary.
I haven't posted in this group (although I've been posting regularly in other Dgrin forums), so I'm not sure I'm on the same wave-length.
What kind of story would you be "out to get"?
PS: I'll post a "street" shot after I send this so you can tell if we are talking the same thing. I'll title it "Bus Stop".
http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/
I have to say I really din't know where to begin in trying to respond to this long thoughtful post, so I am not going to try. I will, instead, respond to a few of the responses:
Jen, we are all our own worst editors. But if we don't at least try to be subjective about our work, we might as well give it up. I just went through the exercise of trying to find the best 20 images I've taken over the entire course of my life as a photographer - at least the 20 best I still have. It really was easy to get to 75, and then was far tougher to get to 20. But you know what? Getting to three, or one, would then be easier. Any way, enough about me. You need to make the effort. Don't blow this off. Look at your work and take a weed wacker to it. And then post the three best.
Damon, I know what you're saying about Rutt, but there are other 'real deal's' here. I would go so far as to say that someone doesn't even have to be a particularly good photographer to be a 'real deal' in this community. Rather, Anyone who is trying seriously to improve, who is looking at other people's work and learning from it, who is taking criticism seriously, is the 'real deal.' And please - post more.
Rainbow - There shouldn't be any need to apologize for anything here - especially posting in color.
If viewers are failing to see something that the photographer is convinced is in the image, in 9 cases out of 10 the viewers are correct - and the image is a failure. A photographer should not have to explain his or her photo. One of my best remembered high school teachers used to say, "if a poem has a hidden meaning it's a failure." His point was that if the reader can't discern what the poet intended, the poet failed in his attempt to reach the reader; it's the same with photographs.
Liz - all I can say to you is just keep shooting. Watching you grow photographically has been one of the real pleasures here. (No, I have never met Liz, am not a member of her family, and was not paid to write that.
Tony - If I'm reading your comments correctly, I think you are conflating the idea of street photography and photography of the bizarre. Street photography is simply capturing real life in public. It may be shocking, humorous, emotional, odd, or mundane. The best street photography tends to be ambiguous. You can find great subjects in or outside a biker bar or tattoo parlor, and you can find them at or in a J.C. Penny's. In fact, what you find outside the biker bar or tattoo parlor may well be cliched - because everyone assumes that's where to shoot and shoots there. The Penny's, on the other hand, may provide some real surprises.
Also, there's been allot of back and forth over what this forum is and what it should be called - Certainly it is the Street, Documentary, and Photo Journalism forum. But If I had my druthers it would simply be the Real Life forum - a place for candid photography of all kinds. One can do documentary photography of weddings, or, for that matter, of one's own family gatherings. The point is to capture life as it is lived, unposed, unplanned.
Nir - Yes, this is a place to post photos that tell specific stories. But it's also a place to post photos that tell stories you weren't trying to find, but stumbled upon. And as I noted above, those may be stories that unfold around your own dinner table.
Now, enough navel gazing - go start culling your images to come up with those three.
"He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan
"The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/
I admit to probably being a bit too self-deprecating in my original post. I do have a fairly good idea how to handle my camera and I generally have a reasonable idea of which of my images work and which don't. I'm also pretty sure my hit rate has improved over the last year as a result of losing some of the fear of getting close as well as being much more patient when I see a setting with potential.
What I am not (yet) is an adequate editor and technician that can deconstruct an image and comment or demonstrate element by element on possible ways to improve in post. I do feel I have a sense on the situational issues faced by a street and doco photographer and I try to comment in that vein when I feel I have something to contribute.
I'm going to work on my rhetorical and critiquing capabilities of both my own and other's images in the coming year. I also haven't taken enough advantage of offers to help me grow as a photographer. Expect changes in that area too.
Personally, I think the exit of a JC Penny would be ripe with opportunities to capture interesting, real life interactions. Just gotta know when to be there and remember to get close
For me, playing the odds is knowing enough about the territory I'm about to walk to be able to get in a good position at a good time to get a good shot. It doesn't matter whether it's 'Tats or Tater Tots.
I am tempted to go down to the mall and park outside of the JC Penny exit and sit in my car with a long lens and prove myself wrong by finding an interesting shot of an exiting shopper.
With my luck today, though, I'd probably get arrested for suspicious behavior. I just had to pay out almost a grand to an electrician because my main breaker box had to be replaced.
http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/
"He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan
"The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
NO - do not sit out in the parking lot with a 1200 and "snipe." Mount your 50, 35, 28, 21, and go confront life.
"He not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan
"The more ambiguous the photograph is, the better it is..." Leonard Freed
I partly agree, short range will allow you to interact with the people. But if you want to catch the moment, you need to be further away...
As an amateur, I post my pics here for critic that I can't get elsewhere. If all I will get here will be claps, I will go somewhere else
Taking pictures that move me is easy, taking pictures that will move the world - that's a lot harder...
http://ohad.smugmug.com
My Equipment:
* Nikon D200 + Grip
* Nikon 12-24mm f/4 AF-S DX, 50mm f/1.4 AF D
* Nikon 70-200mm f/2.8D VR G-AFS ED-IF
* 190XPROB Manfrotto Tripod & Cullmann 40300 Magnesit 3-Way Head Large
* I use DXO Optics Pro and Film Pack for all processing, no CS involved!
What Liz said.
... I'm still peeling potatoes.
patti hinton photography
So it gave me a big goal for my photography: take pictures that are actually about something.
My point is that it was tough love and it did me a world of good over the long haul. Blunt critique is a gift. Learn to accept it graciously and you will be doing yourself a big favor.