Church Wedding NO Flash! HELP!

GinGin · April 8, 2010

Hi all,

I have just purchased the 5D II I have a church wedding that I am doing. I just found out there is no flash allowed and I have to stand in the very back! I have a 24-105 4.0 IS and have ordered the 70-200 2.8 IS II. I am starting to think that I don't have the proper equipment for this wedding or afraid the knowledge. My client is aware that I am a beginning photographer. I am going to the church all next week to do some practice. I might just tell the bride she will be better off with a more experienced photographer. Any tips would be wonderful.

urbanaries · April 8, 2010

do you have a tripod?

Unless the church is an extremely dark cave, i'd think you'd do ok except during the processional when they are moving. But if you aren't even allowed to capture that...???

If you are allowed to stand in the aisle while they're walking down, you might need something wider in the 2.8 range. I rarely shoot flash even during processionals these days...a prime like a 50 1.4 would be something I'd have in my bag for sure given your current lens lineup.

urbanaries · April 8, 2010

This was a fairly old church with small, stained glass windows. It doesn't look dark because it's well exposed, but it was. Wth them moving I was able to stop the action at 1/100, f2.5, ISO 1600 (focal length 35mm). Now, getting them to SMILE is a whole other issue...

Don't be afraid to use ISO 1600 on that 5D...that's your key to success in these situations.

My biggest concern wouldn't be your gear, but your lack of experience using it in low light, moving subject situations. So with whatever time you have between now and the wedding, practice! In your house, in that church, whatever. Figure out how to best nail the FOCUS and the exposure.

tenoverthenose · April 8, 2010

Step one: Manage your clients expectations. Be clear with them that by having their ceremony in a church that does not allow flash, they are restricting your ability to take the very best photos. If the wedding is close, it's too late to back out.

Step two: Educate. It troubles me that you are shooting weddings not knowing what you are getting into and having the confidence to figure out the best path. Do you know the working limits of your current equipment? Why would you want to use the 24-105 over the 70-200 or vice versa?

Step three: Rent / borrow some fast glass (2.8 isn't that fast in a dark church) - but you have to know how to use it! Don't try to shoot wide open on a lens that you have no experience with or most of your shots will be out of focus.

Qarik · April 8, 2010

GinGin wrote:

Hi all,

I have just purchased the 5D II I have a church wedding that I am doing. I just found out there is no flash allowed and I have to stand in the very back! I have a 24-105 4.0 IS and have ordered the 70-200 2.8 IS II. I am starting to think that I don't have the proper equipment for this wedding or afraid the knowledge. My client is aware that I am a beginning photographer. I am going to the church all next week to do some practice. I might just tell the bride she will be better off with a more experienced photographer. Any tips would be wonderful.

equipment wise that is the best you are going to get..with IS you should be able to handhold shots at 200mm at 1/50s. with iso set to 3200 on 5D2 you should be fine

sweet caroline · April 8, 2010

Eclipsed wrote:

I would also talk to your clients about why you have to be in the back. If you explain the situation they may permit you to move around. It is unusual for the photographer to be stuck in the back. If they are paying you, they have got to want the best results. Tell them the importance of your freedom of movement.

It's actually not an unusual policy for the CHURCH to have. I doubt it's in the clients' control.

Caroline

Eclipsed · April 8, 2010

sweet caroline wrote:

It's actually not an unusual policy for the CHURCH to have. I doubt it's in the clients' control.

Caroline

Ok, I guess I haven't been to any churches like that.

ARKreations · April 8, 2010

Clarify that policy in detail with the church official. You may be given some latitude to possibly move around or use flash during the processional and recessional. Other than that, you have the right equipment with the 5D2+70-200/f2.8. Definitely shoot raw and don't be afraid to increase the ISO. Unless the church is very dark with no lighting, it shouldn't be as bad as you fear.

Surfdog · April 8, 2010

Eclipsed wrote:

Ok, I guess I haven't been to any churches like that.

I have run into the same situation at several churches. A couple of churches have even limted us to shooting from the balcony during the ceremony itself. Sometimes all you can do is all you can do. Just make sure that the couple knows ahead of time and understands what your limitations will be so that their expectations do not far exceed what you are able to do. You may have to re-create some of the specific parts of the ceremony afterwards to get the kiss, close-up of putting on the rings, etc.

In the meantime - practice, practice, practice.

Art Scott · April 8, 2010

Eclipsed wrote:

Ok, I guess I haven't been to any churches like that.

you're very lucky......I have shot weddings here in Wichita for over 25yrs and i have found that every church here is a no flash church.....even the caves.....I ran into the same thing in Sacremento ca and also Prague Cz..........However if you talk extremely nicely to the Minister or Preist and ask if they want the fact that they are unwilling to bend to make for a bad wedding experiencefor oone of their own flock.....then they tend to come around and their reasoning is always because of some idiot that did not turn his flas off during themost reverent part of the wedding ceremony and he was also up and down aisles and behing the lectern causing a problem.......then the ministers take it out on us that do have a clue as to what we are doing......

The hardest one was in Prague and that Priest had seen me buying a Protestant Bible and how dare I come to shoot in his Catholic Church......I expalined it was a gift for a Minister nephew of mine and if I could forgive my nephew so should he................It worked...........

I pull the guilt trip card as a last resort tho.........

PhotoLasVegas · April 9, 2010

Yes, you should always meet with the officiant beforehand anyway, especially in a new location. Remember every rule is made because someone else caused it to be made. Likely it was an idiot disrepectful photographer (or likely MANY) that made them institute these rules. You are NOT going to get them to change, and there's no point in asking.

However, meet with them and CLARIFY:

1. Thank you Father (or whatever title that person is) for the opportunity to shoot photos in your Church. I first want to let you know that my main goal is to respect your Church and the rules you have established. However, as you know, I also have an obligation to our bride and groom to provide them with the best photos possible. And, on a sidenote, to capture your beautiful church in the best way possible. So, I'd like to get a clear understanding of your rules... find out which ones are solid rules, and which ones are requests/guidelines. Please be assured, though, that again I would never intentionally do anything to disrespect your Church.

Then discuss specifics.. most churches we work in, the rule is that you can't go further forward than the farthest-back guest. So, if that's the case, then make it very clear to the B&G to tell the ushers to seat people in the front and move people who sit in the back.

Even without that rule, the general rule seems to be that we cant' go further forward than the first row.

Flash: Don't bother to argue, just clarify WHEN it can/can't be used... we've found that, when asked, they will allow flash during the processional/recessional but not during the actual ceremony. That would allow you to use your 24- length with flash and switch to your 70-200 during the ceremony itself, thereby fixing the "movement" problem (we have NO problem shooting the 70-200 IS at f2.8, 1/60th, handheld with no motion blur during a ceremony).

You may also want to NICELY ask if there will be any announcements made "for the guests" to not use flash. I say this because invariably, we follow the rules, but there's 4 or 5 guests who use their flashes. You bring this up for a couple reasons: (1) to let him know that this is common, and that YOU for sure will follow the rules, but you can't control the guests (ie. so don't get mad at me or assume it's me), and (2) so that maybe just maybe a subliminal idea is put into his mind that it's not really fair to limit the pro while at least not warning the guests (NEVER make it SOUND like this, though!).

Using these and a few other communications with the Churches here in Vegas, we've been asked MULTIPLE times for contact information without soliciting for it, and have countless church referrals. Especially Catholic churches who seem to be the most strict.

All that said, we use 40d's and we never use ISO higher than 400 (we hate noise!). But we have an assistant with a 5dMKII who shot an entire indoor, nighttime reception with NO flash (it was a friend's reception, she was just doing an experiment) at ISO3200, using a 50mm f1.4 (mostly at f2.5 tho), with virtually no noise and the photos were as good or better than with flash. So don't be afraid to go ISO 1600+ with your camera.

I'd also pick up a $99 50mm f1.8, it's probably the best value for a prime, fast lens. It will be sharper than your current lens, and almost as sharp as your new 70-200f2.8 IS. Or you can spend $300-400 on the f1.4 version which is even better, and is the sharpest lens I've ever used.

kidzmom · April 9, 2010

I have always understood that Churches do not allow flash as it is too distracting during the ceremony. I think that with the 2.8 you will be fine. I would prefer not using flash (personally) so I think this is an advantage. If you expose your shots properly you will not run into any grain issues---and even if you do...there are some wonderful noise tools out there. I'm quite sure the pictures will be beautiful without flash and your new lens. Congrats on the purchase!

Blurmore · April 9, 2010

Whenever I read a photographer who makes the statement that "freedom of movement" is important and the clients are "paying" it makes me cringe. I've worked in a lot of churches that have been screwed by a photographer who gets all up in people's business and tromps all over behind the officiant during a ceremony ONCE, then the church makes some draconian policy. First you should have a "house rules" section of your contract, which states that you can only photograph a ceremony from where the church will allow and how the church says. Not being able to be up front with flash when they come down the isle is a total pain, I've only had this happen to me 3 times (that I couldn't talk the officiant out of it) in hundreds and hundreds of weddings. For the rest (the ceremony) I don't use flash even if the church allows it, I won't come closer than 30 feet from the couple, and I will NEVER move behind the wedding party or officiant unless there is some sort of second level access. Yeah you are there to do a job, but being respectful of what a (church) wedding is all about (a sacrament) should always come first. I shoot many many ceremonies only from the back with no access up the isle or flanking the side isles, you'll be fine. Bring a monopod, or tripod, shoot 800 or 1600 iso and practice holding still and squeezing that shutter release or better yet use a remote and MLU. This issue digs me real deep in the "why wedding photographers should not call themselves photojournalists" department, its a wedding...not the scene of a drive-by, it needs proper respect if that is what is demanded, and the WORST thing you can do is break the rules. That screws it up for everyone, and I HAVE seen an orthodox officiant call down a videographer DURING the ceremony, just up and stop the ceremony and chew the guy a new one...you do NOT want that.

urbanaries · April 9, 2010

Well said, Blurmore.

See if there are some wedding scheduled at that church (or any church, for that matter) and attend the ceremony to watch how the photographer conducts him/herself. IMO this is the best way to get comfortable with your game plan.....what to do...and what not to do.

Good luck!

jmphotocraft · April 9, 2010

Eclipsed wrote:

If you shoot RAW, you can underexpose a little bit and then turn it back up in PP. That would give you a little boost in shutter speed, although I am not completely sure if it's a good idea.

That is the same as or worse than shooting at a higher ISO in the first place, and you're just adding steps to your PP workflow. If you underexpose, there will be more noise in the shadow areas, which will only get worse when you boost in PP. There will be less noise if you properly expose at a higher ISO at the time of shooting.

l.k.madison · April 9, 2010

My sister's best friend got married in September in a "no flash" church. I asked my parents (who are the youth directors at said church) why that was the rule and they said it's because the Minister feels that a wedding is a sacred union, not a spectacle that needs to be filled with flashing lights and cell phones. It made sense from that standpoint, I don't think it's a rule against photogs, I think it's so the concentration is on the couple, not on the flashes.

I did pay special attention to the photographer, she got them coming down the aisle, went to the back and shot from the back (I forgot her lens specs) for the rest of the ceremony.

I'm going to sound VERY old fashioned, but now that mid-line digital cameras are relatively inexpensive, most people would rather hire "Uncle Bob" than a professional who knows how to act - and shoot - at the same time. Unfortunately, so many brides suffer from Uncle Bob Syndrome, thus putting a bad rep for the pros. I'm not saying EVERY amateur photographer messes up, but it only takes a few.

Jeremy Winterberg · April 9, 2010

My dad is a pastor so he has given me lots of advice.. and referrals

.

He prefers no flash during the ceremony mainly because it distracts him, the couple, the entire wedding party, and all of the guests... They see a flash of light and they all look at it.

He's got a "...use it if you HAVE to but don't if you can help it..." rule. He used to be a photographer when he was my age (nothing fancy - just a hobby), so he understands you need light to expose correctly. He will allow flash during the recessional and processional, but once things get serious he hates it.

He also says to never go up on the stage or behind them ever... but being up near the front pews is alright. He always suggests to the photographers that the balcony has the best angle if they have a telephoto lens and tripod.

With the 5DMKII I would set it for 3200ISO and crank out some awesome pictures. I know with my D700 I can get awesome low noise shots at 6400ISO even.

HTH
Jeremy

Surfdog · April 9, 2010

Jeremy Winterberg wrote:

My dad is a pastor so he has given me lots of advice.. and referrals .

He prefers no flash during the ceremony mainly because it distracts him, the couple, the entire wedding party, and all of the guests... They see a flash of light and they all look at it.

He's got a "...use it if you HAVE to but don't if you can help it..." rule. He used to be a photographer when he was my age (nothing fancy - just a hobby), so he understands you need light to expose correctly. He will allow flash during the recessional and processional, but once things get serious he hates it.

He also says to never go up on the stage or behind them ever... but being up near the front pews is alright. He always suggests to the photographers that the balcony has the best angle if they have a telephoto lens and tripod.

With the 5DMKII I would set it for 3200ISO and crank out some awesome pictures. I know with my D700 I can get awesome low noise shots at 6400ISO even.

HTH
Jeremy

Jeremy -
Your D700 at 6400 ISO will do great for weddings. We shoot all of our weddings (20-25 a year) without flashes during the ceremony using our D700's, usually at 6400 ISO, and have very little noticeable noise. Our philosophy has always been to get great shots, angles, faces, moments, without people really noticing our presence during the ceremony. It's hard to blend in when you are blasting the room with light.

mmmatt · April 12, 2010

Depending on the church lighting, no flash can be awful with strong backlighting, spot lights, or a myriad of different colors/types of lighting. I personally use flash if I can almost always. Big bright churches can certainly be heaven for ambient shooting though. If I can't use flash its nbd because I have the glass for it. IS/VR lenses or even monopods are great for some situations and can help you handhold a few stops slower, but do you no good if people are moving. Even minimal movement can soften an image beyond my liking at 1/60th. I usually shoot ambient light in shutter priority set at 1/80th or 1/100th as minimums. Also I use spot metering in the body which helps a lot with backlighting and whatnot. If you are forced to shoot the procession without flash and it is really dark, it is a good idea to move with your subject either panning from the side or walking backwards in front of them. this allows you to minimize the motion blur and minimize the effect of a thin DOF. Regardless of equiptment or technique, nothing beats a fast lens and quality high iso for low light IMHO. Unfortunately the 2 biggest expenses in this business are fast glass and high-iso bodies! I agree 100% with Jason's comment about the contract. Here is disclaimer #3 from mine

All photography at ceremony location, reception location and off-site locations are subject to rules set in place by the officiate or management of said venue. Any such rules limiting the use of flash, or the photographer’s movement throughout the venue may result in lack of coverage or poor coverage throughout that part of the event.

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Underexposing on purpose is almost never a good idea unless you are as slow, as wide open and at the highest iso you can safely shoot. After that point it is simply archival and getting the shot regardless of exposure. Your reasonable exposure adjustability with a RAW file lessens the higher your iso, so when you are up there on iso do your best to nail it. As said before you are better off in most cases shooting higher iso than under exposing and far better getting grain than motion blur. Removing some of the blacks in your raw processing can however be very helpful, and black and white makes grain a little more artistic looking.

From my experience, the pastor/father/rabbi doesn't want to have a big discussion about how you shoot. They don't have time for lots of dialog! here is my schpeal "Hello Father I'm Matt from LightCraft, anything I need to know? If he says Nope I shake his hand and do my thing. If he says no flash, I ask if it is OK to flash during the procession and the kiss, to which I usually get a yes. If he says no flash and stay behind all the pews I say OK and ask about using the side isles or about flash durring the procession to which I usually get a no. If the church is dark and no flash I sometimes ask if we can turn the lights up a touch to help me out and almost always get a yes. if you see the maintenance guy turning on the lights as you are getting ready just ask him to kick it up a notch if you need it. that is usually NBD. People in charge have their rules and want you to follow them but if you ask and act respectfully they almost always want to help you out. Everyone knows that the photos are an important part of the day.

Jason's comment above is by far the most important one. CYA in your contract and then do your best for your clients.

Matt

JohnBiggs · April 12, 2010

I'm like many others here. Most churches are no flash. In fact I stopped using flash during any ceremony even if allowed, except during the procession.

I'm getting more primes to help, but the 70-200mm 2.8 IS is manageable. The f4 is way to slow. I'm never a tripod guy during a wedding, but if I was in a cave and told I'm not allowed to move anyways, then a tripod would be perfect.

I don't go too far forward either. The wedding I shot on Friday had no rules and the videographer and wanna be photographer were both trouncing behind the officiant during the ceremony. I almost hit the floor. Some people...

Church Wedding NO Flash! HELP!

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