Flash Question(s) 580EX II

GadgetRick · April 28, 2010

Ok, so I was playing around with the flash in the backyard earlier this evening. Bright sky and I figured it would be a good time to test out flash with a bright background. Been shooting and getting my ambient light correct on indoor shots lately. This is more extreme. So this is what I tried...

Aperture Priority shooting ETTL. I was at f4 (just for extreme differences) and I was about 4-5' from subject. Shot, seemed to expose my subject properly with the flash but (of course) the sky was totally blown. No hope on that.

Manual setting shooting ETTL. Same composition and distance from subject. First I exposed (sans flash) on the sky. Got a shutter speed of 1/3200 (obviously bright). Then switched flash on, put it in HSM and shot. Got a very dark subject and properly-exposed sky. Hmm, shouldn't the flash figure out it must fire with more intensity?

So my question is, short of putting the flash in manual mode and setting it properly then exposing for the background, how do you shoot such a shot (bright background)?

Also, was discussing this with a friend. He mentioned about he likes shooting the flash in manual mode because of things like this. My counter is, seems like a lot of other pros shoot ETTL and suggest it. Also seems like I'm missing something as why would I spend $400+ on a flash with all of the bells and whistles if I never let it do its thing? Could spend MUCH less if I need to shoot in manual. Just seems like I'm missing something here....

Scott_Quier · April 29, 2010

It would be nice if the flash were as intelligent as people. But, sadly, that's not yet the case.

So, there are things that need to be done to get this to work:

First thing to remember is that 1/3500s is a quite fast shutter speed. The faster the shutter speed, the less effective will be the flash. It is for this reason that you will discover that HSS really, really burns through the batteries.
If your subject is being back lit (or the background/sky is significantly bright - and it sounds like it is), the camera and the flash will see that light during the pre-flash and compensate by reducing the amount of light it will be putting out.
To counter this, you will need to dial in a bit of Flash Exposure Compensation (FEC). I would guess (and, without seeing your result that's all I can do) you will need to dial in something like 1.5 to 2 stops of FEC.

The bottom line is that your should consider both the camera and flash to be very stupid. You will have to supply the brains to the operation. Take a shot, study the histogram a LCD image. Make adjustments to either the exposure or FEC to get what you want. Repeat until you do get what you want.

GadgetRick · April 29, 2010

Scott_Quier wrote:

It would be nice if the flash were as intelligent as people. But, sadly, that's not yet the case.

So, there are things that need to be done to get this to work:
First thing to remember is that 1/3500s is a quite fast shutter speed. The faster the shutter speed, the less effective will be the flash. It is for this reason that you will discover that HSS really, really burns through the batteries.

If your subject is being back lit (or the background/sky is significantly bright - and it sounds like it is), the camera and the flash will see that light during the pre-flash and compensate by reducing the amount of light it will be putting out.

To counter this, you will need to dial in a bit of Flash Exposure Compensation (FEC). I would guess (and, without seeing your result that's all I can do) you will need to dial in something like 1.5 to 2 stops of FEC.

The bottom line is that your should consider both the camera and flash to be very stupid. You will have to supply the brains to the operation. Take a shot, study the histogram a LCD image. Make adjustments to either the exposure or FEC to get what you want. Repeat until you do get what you want.

Ok, this is sort of the conclusion I came to. Thanks for clearing that up.

My question then is, why do we spend so much on a flash for all of the features like ETTL when, in reality, we really will shoot it (essentially) as a manual flash? Ok, the 580EX II is one bright sonuvagun so that's worth it for a lot of reasons but it's got all of these nice features...

Also, it seems to work well when I don't have a super bright background. So maybe I was just asking it to do too much?

Thanks.

angevin1 · April 29, 2010

GadgetRick wrote:

So maybe I was just asking it to do too much?

Thanks.

You were, sorta! Perhaps not too much, but you are asking a lot. Reading around on the Internet via what pro's do, you'll find so many of them talk about overpowering the Sun...and that is what you were attempting to do! Like Scott was suggesting, you can do it, but not without knowing more about your flash and the overall idea behind High speed sync and so forth.

I will tell you an easier way though: Use a reflector!

Scott_Quier · April 29, 2010

GadgetRick wrote:

Ok, this is sort of the conclusion I came to. Thanks for clearing that up.

My question then is, why do we spend so much on a flash for all of the features like ETTL when, in reality, we really will shoot it (essentially) as a manual flash? Ok, the 580EX II is one bright sonuvagun so that's worth it for a lot of reasons but it's got all of these nice features...

Also, it seems to work well when I don't have a super bright background. So maybe I was just asking it to do too much?

Thanks.

The state of the art of designing hardware smarts is just not there yet. What you are asking for is very much into the realm of artifical intelligence - the ability to view a scene and apply some smarts to figure out what the photographer is intending. The Canon systems does pretty good with back-lit subjects when you use Av outdoors (not so well indoors, we'll leave the explaination of that as a exercise for the student

).

What are you buying when you drop $450 on the 580EX II? How about

Power - GN of 191' is nothing to sneeze at
ETT-L - under "most" situations, this technology does a good job. When if fails, it provides a good starting point from which to make adjustments to get what is desired.
HSS - yes, you can get this with a couple of other flash manufacturers (Sigma comes to mind), but there it is
Build - the 580 is a very sturdily built flash

Lest someone get the idea that I'm a Canon phanboi, let me say that I am well aware of many of the short-comings of the Canon flash system. There are more than just a few other flash systems that have lots of advantages over the Canon.

When you use ETT-L, you are a fair distance from using it as a "(essentially) manual flash". The camera and flash are doing a lot of work to set the flash power at a decent starting point.

GadgetRick · April 29, 2010

angevin1 wrote:

You were, sorta! Perhaps not too much, but you are asking a lot. Reading around on the Internet via what pro's do, you'll find so many of them talk about overpowering the Sun...and that is what you were attempting to do! Like Scott was suggesting, you can do it, but not without knowing more about your flash and the overall idea behind High speed sync and so forth.

I will tell you an easier way though: Use a reflector!

I didn't have an, "assistant," to hold a reflector but that's a good idea. I have to get something I can use as a reflector and keep it with me.

GadgetRick · April 29, 2010

Scott_Quier wrote:

The state of the art of designing hardware smarts is just not there yet. What you are asking for is very much into the realm of artifical intelligence - the ability to view a scene and apply some smarts to figure out what the photographer is intending. The Canon systems does pretty good with back-lit subjects when you use Av outdoors (not so well indoors, we'll leave the explaination of that as a exercise for the student ).

What are you buying when you drop $450 on the 580EX II? How about
Power - GN of 191' is nothing to sneeze at

ETT-L - under "most" situations, this technology does a good job. When if fails, it provides a good starting point from which to make adjustments to get what is desired.

HSS - yes, you can get this with a couple of other flash manufacturers (Sigma comes to mind), but there it is

Build - the 580 is a very sturdily built flash

Lest someone get the idea that I'm a Canon phanboi, let me say that I am well aware of many of the short-comings of the Canon flash system. There are more than just a few other flash systems that have lots of advantages over the Canon.

When you use ETT-L, you are a fair distance from using it as a "(essentially) manual flash". The camera and flash are doing a lot of work to set the flash power at a decent starting point.

Not implying the flash is a piece of junk. I like it as it IS very bright and feels like a tank.

I agree, shooting in Av when outdoors does seem to work well with this flash. However, not in this situation. I guess it was just too extreme a difference--which is why I was playing with it yesterday as I tend to learn more when trying to do extreme things with my gear. It shows the weaknesses (and strengths) better (imo).

rwells · April 30, 2010

Read this thread, which is on the same page as your thread.

It has explanations (and links to some great 580EX flash use info) to accomplish what you are asking.

I'll just simply state here that your really making things much harder for yourself to get the results that your after by using your camera and flash in the modes you have described, for the conditions that you described.

I'll make it simple: Set camera mode to manual ~ select a low ISO ~ set shutter speed to your max X-sync speed ~ adjust the ambient to your liking via aperture ~ now turn on your ETTL and let the 580 do it's thing!

Easy peasy

jeffreaux2 · April 30, 2010

rwells wrote: »

Read this thread, which is on the same page as your thread.

It has explanations (and links to some great 580EX flash use info) to accomplish what you are asking.

I'll just simply state here that your really making things much harder for yourself to get the results that your after by using your camera and flash in the modes you have described, for the conditions that you described.

I'll make it simple: Set camera mode to manual ~ select a low ISO ~ set shutter speed to your max X-sync speed ~ adjust the ambient to your liking via aperture ~ now turn on your ETTL and let the 580 do it's thing!

Easy peasy

This is a sound approach.

...and some of it may seem counter intuitive but.....it works.

In high speed synch mode the 580 will likely NEVER offer you a full powered flash in ETTL. It just aint gonna happen. So....you HAVE to get the shutter speed to 1/250 or slower. Since you want to overpower the ambient light....yet you are restricted to 1/250 MAX shutter speed....you need a low ISO AND more than likely a tight aperture. So try this. Manual mode.....ISO100....and squeeze the aperture down closed until your shutter speed is equal to...or slower than the native synch speed...1/250.

Then, if you HAVE to add some positive FEC, but you probably wont have to.

You will need to locate the flash as close as practical to your subject.

Be aware that full powered discharges produce a lot of heat.

GadgetRick · May 1, 2010

rwells wrote: »

Read this thread, which is on the same page as your thread.

It has explanations (and links to some great 580EX flash use info) to accomplish what you are asking.

I'll just simply state here that your really making things much harder for yourself to get the results that your after by using your camera and flash in the modes you have described, for the conditions that you described.

I'll make it simple: Set camera mode to manual ~ select a low ISO ~ set shutter speed to your max X-sync speed ~ adjust the ambient to your liking via aperture ~ now turn on your ETTL and let the 580 do it's thing!

Easy peasy

Thanks for the link, will check that out.

Will also try your technique although, as the next poster states, seems counter-intuitive to me.

But I've seen other things like this work like a charm. Gonna be out this afternoon/evening shooting.

GadgetRick · May 1, 2010

jeffreaux2 wrote: »

This is a sound approach.

...and some of it may seem counter intuitive but.....it works.

In high speed synch mode the 580 will likely NEVER offer you a full powered flash in ETTL. It just aint gonna happen. So....you HAVE to get the shutter speed to 1/250 or slower. Since you want to overpower the ambient light....yet you are restricted to 1/250 MAX shutter speed....you need a low ISO AND more than likely a tight aperture. So try this. Manual mode.....ISO100....and squeeze the aperture down closed until your shutter speed is equal to...or slower than the native synch speed...1/250.

Then, if you HAVE to add some positive FEC, but you probably wont have to.

You will need to locate the flash as close as practical to your subject.

Be aware that full powered discharges produce a lot of heat.

Unfortunately, shooting on-camera flash for this example as I'm shooting my boys playing. So can only get as close as I am.

JohnBiggs · May 5, 2010

I always get burned by ETTL.... If you have to check your shot to see if ETTL did it right, then you may as well just use manual and know shot 1 and shot 2 both kept the same settings. At least then there are some consistencies.

JimKarczewski · May 5, 2010

Just a little tidbit of information regarding the above post

In high speed synch mode the 580 will likely NEVER offer you a full powered flash in ETTL

Reason being is when you are on NON-HSS you are shooting ONE pulse of light. In HSS mode, the flash is firing off many little bursts to light the subject, which affects not only the power, obviously, but the distance you can be from your subject when shooting.

JohnBiggs · May 10, 2010

JimKarczewski wrote: »

which affects not only the power, obviously, but the distance you can be from your subject when shooting.

It's really just the power. Light will hit the subject at any unobstructed distance, the power just determines how 'strong' the light will be.

Desmond · May 15, 2010

High-fp flash gives you approximately half the working distance as normal flash [ 1/4 the power ] if you are maintaining the same exposure for the ambient .
It is not so much the shutter speed that changes your working distance as the combination between shutter speed , aperture and iso since HSS flash is continuous light .
So if you shoot at 1/3200th and F4 with HSS you will have exactly the same working distance as 1/800th and F8 since whatever you do to the ambient does the same to the continuous light of HSS and keeping the same exposure for the ambient keeps the same exposure for HSS flash .

ETTL-II is similar to TTL/BL and worth learning to use since going manual means your subject must be a consistent distance from the flash or you will have to change the output constantly .

LeeHowell · May 16, 2010

I don't shoot Nikon, but I have learned so much about flash by reading this book by Joe McNally

The Hot Shoe Diaries

The same basic concept as what others have addressed here - But it's also great for "the big picture" stuff, like helping to understand metering modes, Tv vs Av vs M and how they all interact with your flash...Using multiple lights, etc...

Plus, if you're like me - It's a "pretty picture" book you can flip through for inspiration and then read further for setup details.

Desmond · May 17, 2010

LeeHowell wrote: »

I don't shoot Nikon, but I have learned so much about flash by reading this book by Joe McNally

The Hot Shoe Diaries.

It is a good book but just be wary of the mistakes in it - I listed them on my blog . His understanding of TTL/BL is wrong and so is his thinking regarding distance and flash power but since he has about 16 speedlights it doesn't affect him much

divamum · May 17, 2010

GadgetRick wrote: »

I didn't have an, "assistant," to hold a reflector but that's a good idea. I have to get something I can use as a reflector and keep it with me.

Get thee to your local dollar store and pick up a piece of white foamboard (the stiffened kind, not just poster card). If you can't find any at a dollar store, Walmart and Michael's both have it, although you'll have to stretch the budget to $5 instead

That said, I have to confess I really like my 5-in-1 45" reflector - I use the gold side a lot, the transluscent panel is great to block dappled sun and/or shoot flash through to act as a large diffuser, and I have even used the black side as a small headshot background when on location! I got it as a kit with a stand and arm for ~ $100 and it was a good investment since it has so many uses.

ETA: I almost exclusively use ETTL with my flash set up (430ex and 420ex triggered by an ste2, although now I have a 7d I'll likely be using the built-in trigger) and 95% of the time it does a great job, particularly with balancing fill to ambient. I ride FEC to get the effect(s) I want and it's not foolproof, but I've been happy with it. Most of the time I'm using flash indoors, or outdoors as fill; I've not had to use it to blast out the sun yet and only use HSS synch occasionally.

GadgetRick · May 17, 2010

divamum wrote: »

Get thee to your local dollar store and pick up a piece of white foamboard (the stiffened kind, not just poster card). If you can't find any at a dollar store, Walmart and Michael's both have it, although you'll have to stretch the budget to $5 instead

That said, I have to confess I really like my 5-in-1 45" reflector - I use the gold side a lot, the transluscent panel is great to block dappled sun and/or shoot flash through to act as a large diffuser, and I have even used the black side as a small headshot background when on location! I got it as a kit with a stand and arm for ~ $100 and it was a good investment since it has so many uses.

ETA: I almost exclusively use ETTL with my flash set up (430ex and 420ex triggered by an ste2, although now I have a 7d I'll likely be using the built-in trigger) and 95% of the time it does a great job, particularly with balancing fill to ambient. I ride FEC to get the effect(s) I want and it's not foolproof, but I've been happy with it. Most of the time I'm using flash indoors, or outdoors as fill; I've not had to use it to blast out the sun yet and only use HSS synch occasionally.

I thought about the foamboard thing but, with as much moving in and out of a car, truck, etc. I don't want to get something I'm just gonna crush.

Funny you mention the 5 in 1 set. I actually picked one up (sounds like the same one you got) the other day. I figure it'll be more durable and will not bend/break if I put a bag on top of it by accident.

pathfinder · May 17, 2010

Ge the Tri Grip diffuser/reflector. - it is hand holdable with one hand if the breeze isn't too strong.

GadgetRick · May 17, 2010

pathfinder wrote: »

Ge the Tri Grip diffuser/reflector. - it is hand holdable with one hand if the breeze isn't too strong.

I looked at those but they're stupid expensive so I opted for the 5 in 1 deal.

The 48th Ronin · May 31, 2010

I managed to get this with fp flash using a 580EXII, imagine flash at 1/6000 of a second!
http://www.briancareyphotography.com/People/Portraits/12182276_gDBka#879012530_9VWUz

Brian Carey

Flash Question(s) 580EX II

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