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E-sessions and the idiots who shoot them (me)
Mostly, I'd like to get all my thoughts in one place, but any comments are concerns would be lovely.
[backstory]
I was referred by a couple who I had shot an engagement session for (first warning, the couple was immediate family of my girlfriend). I shoot fashion and landscape stuff, I'm not a wedding guy, so that's fine. I thought it would be fun and agreed to meet the original couple. Agreed to shoot for $125 and include a couple prints (2nd warning). Down the road, their internet goes down and they can't proof their images, so I burn a DVD explicitly for "proofing" for them. (and just like that, they get a 2 hour shoot and dvd of images for $125, but no worries, they are close friends and no harm done, right?)
[/end backstory]
I was contacted by this referral couple in early April about shooting and immediately was told by them, "We really loved the work you did for XXX and XXX and wanted to talk about hiring you. We can work with a budget of $125" (shocker, really...). After I explained to them that I don't usually shoot engagements, but could suggest to them my usual rates ($100/hr, additional $100/hr for the DVD and a print credit of '$100'). Well, that cost seems really high to them, so we leave it at them thinking about it.
This is when the emails start back and forth. "We really like your work...blah blah blah...and were really hoping that we could get the shoot for that price while the flowers are still in bloom...by the end of May or so." I ask a few more questions:
* when are you available
* are there any specific shots you are looking for
* are you sending save-the-date cards?
* where is the wedding
* have you looked through all of my work and are comfortable with it?
Eventually, we agree to do a shortened session of an hour for $150 including:
* 2 outfits
* 2 locations within walking distance
* online proofs
* $100 print credit.
* 2 retouched images
* basic retouching (exposure/sharpness/contrast) on all the proofs
I charge $40 for 8x10s...They email me back and ask if "it is possible" to get 3 8x10s and 1 11x14 (all a $200 value) for JUST the $100 print credit.
I offer them two more great options
1. Increase the cost of the shoot to $200 and get the 4 prints
- OR -
2. Increase the cost to $225 and include a DVD for personal use as well.
Both of those are great deals, no?
Anyhow, they are 'firm' on the $150 package, so fine.
10 emails sent back and forth and we've finally decided on a time and date. I recommend an earlier time, but she "doesn't get out of work till 7pm". I strongly recommend trying to get out earlier, or we'll be shooting in the dark. She consents to 6:30. We meet up outside of The Art Institute in Chicago. Her fiancee arrives as well. We're good to go. They suggest that they'd really like to get the $225 option including the DVD, because she is "a photoshop expert".
Ok, fine...works for me. We commence shooting for two hours, hit about 12 unique settings in two different locations down Michigan Avenue. Really broad range of stuff, but decent. Ask clients several times if there is anything else in particular that they want, but "they don't know".
Everything goes great, there is really good rapport and they even try to tip me at the end of the shoot. I politely decline (what is the rule on this, anyhow?) and we go on our ways, with promises of a dvd and them choosing which pictures they would like.
They gushingly approve of their photos in an email that they sent me for both its "fun and elegance". After praising the photos to me AND to the couple that originally referred them, I get an email stating:
I send a nice followup letting them know how to choose pictures and that they are all full resolution images and I would be happy to crop any photo they would like. Also that they could take care of it on their own since they purchased the full resolution images on a dvd.
She sends a few more emails and leaves a voicemail implying that she LOVES the pictures, BUT would really like a bigger selection of "portraits" from which to choose. She then gets me on the telephone and suggests if it would be possible for me to "shoot more portraits" of them. Basically, she "really likes" the "portraits" (straight-on shots, from the waist-up, of a previous couple I shot. Really straightforward stuff) I had done for the people that referred them to me. (thanks again, guys). She even LINKS me to the pictures of them that they had posted on Facebook (THANKS FOR BREAKING THE ORIGINAL AGREEMENT ON NOT POSTING THOSE PROOFING PICTURES, ORIGINAL COUPLE), but I digress. She goes on to complaint that what they "really wanted" was straight-forward portraits (which they actually got) and also that her fiancee "hates his side profile" and didn't want me to shoot the side of his face. She "doesn't want to inconvenience me", but would I "retake the photos?"
I really want her to be happy and of course, the couple I shot got exactly what they paid for, in a 2 hour photoshoot that already had them receiving a HUGE discount and almost everything that they wanted. I think the pictures turned out really well and they got a broad range of photos to use. I explain to her the difference between a 'retake' (unforeseen and uncontrollable external factors) vs. 'reshoot' (couple wants MORE from a series that they already love. One is free, one is not.
Eventually, though, I concede, because I do genuinely want them to be happy, but the question is where to go from here. I'm going to give them
* 30 minutes, same location
* choice of ONE picture from the new set.
But what next...certainly, at the very least, I'd like them to understand that this is not OK (although, by agreeing to it, I am explicitly making it OK)
AND THAT IS THE STORY OF WHY I SHOULD NEVER SHOOT COUPLES AGAIN!
and now you can judge some of the unedited shots:
Ok...so you get the picture.
[backstory]
I was referred by a couple who I had shot an engagement session for (first warning, the couple was immediate family of my girlfriend). I shoot fashion and landscape stuff, I'm not a wedding guy, so that's fine. I thought it would be fun and agreed to meet the original couple. Agreed to shoot for $125 and include a couple prints (2nd warning). Down the road, their internet goes down and they can't proof their images, so I burn a DVD explicitly for "proofing" for them. (and just like that, they get a 2 hour shoot and dvd of images for $125, but no worries, they are close friends and no harm done, right?)
[/end backstory]
I was contacted by this referral couple in early April about shooting and immediately was told by them, "We really loved the work you did for XXX and XXX and wanted to talk about hiring you. We can work with a budget of $125" (shocker, really...). After I explained to them that I don't usually shoot engagements, but could suggest to them my usual rates ($100/hr, additional $100/hr for the DVD and a print credit of '$100'). Well, that cost seems really high to them, so we leave it at them thinking about it.
This is when the emails start back and forth. "We really like your work...blah blah blah...and were really hoping that we could get the shoot for that price while the flowers are still in bloom...by the end of May or so." I ask a few more questions:
* when are you available
* are there any specific shots you are looking for
* are you sending save-the-date cards?
* where is the wedding
* have you looked through all of my work and are comfortable with it?
Eventually, we agree to do a shortened session of an hour for $150 including:
* 2 outfits
* 2 locations within walking distance
* online proofs
* $100 print credit.
* 2 retouched images
* basic retouching (exposure/sharpness/contrast) on all the proofs
I charge $40 for 8x10s...They email me back and ask if "it is possible" to get 3 8x10s and 1 11x14 (all a $200 value) for JUST the $100 print credit.
I offer them two more great options
1. Increase the cost of the shoot to $200 and get the 4 prints
- OR -
2. Increase the cost to $225 and include a DVD for personal use as well.
Both of those are great deals, no?
Anyhow, they are 'firm' on the $150 package, so fine.
10 emails sent back and forth and we've finally decided on a time and date. I recommend an earlier time, but she "doesn't get out of work till 7pm". I strongly recommend trying to get out earlier, or we'll be shooting in the dark. She consents to 6:30. We meet up outside of The Art Institute in Chicago. Her fiancee arrives as well. We're good to go. They suggest that they'd really like to get the $225 option including the DVD, because she is "a photoshop expert".
Ok, fine...works for me. We commence shooting for two hours, hit about 12 unique settings in two different locations down Michigan Avenue. Really broad range of stuff, but decent. Ask clients several times if there is anything else in particular that they want, but "they don't know".
Everything goes great, there is really good rapport and they even try to tip me at the end of the shoot. I politely decline (what is the rule on this, anyhow?) and we go on our ways, with promises of a dvd and them choosing which pictures they would like.
They gushingly approve of their photos in an email that they sent me for both its "fun and elegance". After praising the photos to me AND to the couple that originally referred them, I get an email stating:
...However, we wish we had more frontal/simple poses of looking at the camera directly, many of them were of our backs and torso down... and after a while it started looking like commercial art. I only wish we had more closeups of our faces looking straight at the camera there are many. Nonetheless, we definetly had a lot of fun taking them with you, you have an eye for angle and the color/sharpness of the pictures are wonderful. I'd like to crop a few and get closer view of us. Is that possible for me to do on my own or would that be part of the request.photoshop "expert", eh?
I send a nice followup letting them know how to choose pictures and that they are all full resolution images and I would be happy to crop any photo they would like. Also that they could take care of it on their own since they purchased the full resolution images on a dvd.
She sends a few more emails and leaves a voicemail implying that she LOVES the pictures, BUT would really like a bigger selection of "portraits" from which to choose. She then gets me on the telephone and suggests if it would be possible for me to "shoot more portraits" of them. Basically, she "really likes" the "portraits" (straight-on shots, from the waist-up, of a previous couple I shot. Really straightforward stuff) I had done for the people that referred them to me. (thanks again, guys). She even LINKS me to the pictures of them that they had posted on Facebook (THANKS FOR BREAKING THE ORIGINAL AGREEMENT ON NOT POSTING THOSE PROOFING PICTURES, ORIGINAL COUPLE), but I digress. She goes on to complaint that what they "really wanted" was straight-forward portraits (which they actually got) and also that her fiancee "hates his side profile" and didn't want me to shoot the side of his face. She "doesn't want to inconvenience me", but would I "retake the photos?"
I really want her to be happy and of course, the couple I shot got exactly what they paid for, in a 2 hour photoshoot that already had them receiving a HUGE discount and almost everything that they wanted. I think the pictures turned out really well and they got a broad range of photos to use. I explain to her the difference between a 'retake' (unforeseen and uncontrollable external factors) vs. 'reshoot' (couple wants MORE from a series that they already love. One is free, one is not.
Eventually, though, I concede, because I do genuinely want them to be happy, but the question is where to go from here. I'm going to give them
* 30 minutes, same location
* choice of ONE picture from the new set.
But what next...certainly, at the very least, I'd like them to understand that this is not OK (although, by agreeing to it, I am explicitly making it OK)
AND THAT IS THE STORY OF WHY I SHOULD NEVER SHOOT COUPLES AGAIN!
and now you can judge some of the unedited shots:
Ok...so you get the picture.
0
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I should say, before anymore of this response, I left out any closeups of them as to keep it somewhat more anonymous. oops
That put them in bargaining mode... especially since your prices were waaaay too cheap to start with. They feel as though they can push you around. From what I read, you went through all of that for about $50... which doesn't even begin to cover costs etc.
I know it was friends of family, but that is crazy to work for that cheap.
I have found that the second you begin to lower your prices, they suck you dry, or don't value your work enough to invest their emotions, time and effort into creating the photos. My prices are what they are to weed out the "not-so-excited about it" folks, and it also gives me a lot of control over the situation.
Your photos that you posted have issues, but they aren't hideous by any means.
Well you said to judge them, so I assume that means you want some critique.
1. best of the bunch -it makes her legs look amazing, and I bet she loves that.
2. Sort of an awkward position for her.
3. over exposed / not feeling the connection between the two
4. Has potential... but a photo has to be great to get away with a "crotch shot".
5. Sort of boring even with the motion blur and tilt. Doesn't really come across as PJ, so there is not really any reason for it.
6. I like it... putting them on a 3rd and getting a little closer would have helped it out. Neat spot, though
7. Fun idea
8. Put some light on them and it would be great.. they are too dark in the scene.
9. I like your composition with the reflection and use of 3rds... I want to see it big though.
10, 11 & 12... I like, though 12 needs some editing to protect her modesty. 11, the flash must have misfired cause it is waay too hot. Her skirt looks brown in that one (?)
13... Get a little lower, and increase your blacks and it could have been great silhouette shot.
One other thing: If they have a change of clothes, you should have encouraged them to not choose the white shirt. White shirts always makes everyone seem larger than they are since your eyes are drawn to light colors... avoid that if you can.
any thoughts on what to mention to them on tuesday? i dont have ay planns to be snide, but it would be nice to know that they at least realize that they got a decent shoot out of the deal...
Here's a selection of an email that we recently sent to a highly discounted client who complained about a "bump" in her daughter's hair... and wanted a full refund for the entire sitting fee.... you'll get some context from the email. I post this so you can maybe figure out a way to answer this couple... feel free to use the same tactics and comments if you'd like!
So basically we told her that we'd already done MORE than what we promised her, AND at a highly discounted rate. We also told her that we were done with messing with her photos and if she wanted more done to them, she was free to pay more. Of course we did it in a (relatively) nice way.
Not sure if this would help you... but if anything you can see that sometimes its OK to be blunt with your clients.
BTW this is only the 2nd time we've ever had to write an email such as this in the 10+ years we've been doing this... and we do about 300 photo shoots per year...
Canon 7d
2 Canon 40d
70-200 f2.8L IS, 50mm f1.4, 50mm f1.8, 28mm f1.8, Tamron 17-55 f2.8, ProOptic 8mm Fisheye
And a bunch of other stuff
I've gotten so many responses warning me to not give them another makeup shoot, but again, this is all my mistake. Everyone here is right - "give an inch...."
Anyhow, we'll see what happens on Tuesday, but any more suggestions would be accepted with open arms. I'm sure this is a problem many of you have gone through at least once before realized the best way to do things!
That said I did find many I thought would process up very nicely, and did show a connection.
I really believe it's up to us to set the parameters of the shoot. Establish expectations and deliverable items. Read contract, even a simple contact forces clients to think a little.
Since there is no contact it's hard to know if you delivered what they expected.
I know you worked hard and yes they are getting their moneys worth.
I would suck it up and give them like a half hour, or maybe an hour for very specific shots. That would be covered under the original cost. Additional prints etc would be a different story.
It's a learning experience.
Sam
Canon 7d
2 Canon 40d
70-200 f2.8L IS, 50mm f1.4, 50mm f1.8, 28mm f1.8, Tamron 17-55 f2.8, ProOptic 8mm Fisheye
And a bunch of other stuff
both great advice on the 'boring' shots! a pretty great lesson, one way or the other. thank you!
The 'boring' shots are what really are the must do's, AFAICT.
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Not to high jack this thread, but: "Photos were taken with 10 different locations/backgrounds, with a total of 19 different "looks"/poses, and with 2 clothing outfits."
Then delivering 10 processed small .jpg for web and email along with two 11X14 prints.
All for $50.00!!!!! What were you thinking? (That's a rhetorical question)
Heck, next time I am in Las Vegas I'll book you myself.
Sam
PS: I have a friend in Las Vegas who is always struggling financially. If you still have this promotion going on I will book you and pay you to shoot my friend.
Serious!
We've shot 87 of them so far, had only this one problem, and our after-sale average is $134 (some bought nothing, others bought packages up to $400+ in size)... we paid a 50% commission on the $50 session fee sales so we received about $4000 up-front, then another $11,600 in after-sales (no commission).
We bunch up the shoots so we're shooting 4 or 5 in a day, one after another. (Matter of fact this Sunday we're shooting 10 of them, myself and my wife shooting at the same time with different clients). Since we use Lightroom, it literally takes 20 minutes to process the photos from the shoots... we have an average of 2 hours total in each shoot (shooting, editing, sales meeting) so we're making about $75/hour.
That's not bad considering we only do these on our off-days (we do almost exclusively weddings, but this special was only for family/kids/graduation/engagements). So in the last 2.5 months we've made an additional $15k in sales (about $13k in profits) working during times that we normally would be sitting around.
Oh, and on a sidenote, 9 of these shoots were e-sessions, and we've already booked 4 of them for $1500+ wedding day packages (that's another $4500)... and another $2000 wedding day package from a children's session (the mom's friend is getting married and the mom referred us). Oh, and we've already re-booked 6 of the children's sessions for shoots 6 or 12 months out. The return/referral business has jump-started the family/children's side of the business.
So, that's what we were thinking
Oh, the offer was a one-day offer but as a professional courtesy we'd consider offering the deal to you- but please keep in mind we did this for the legitimate opportunity to make after-sales (sort of like when a studio photog offers a 'free sitting fee' deal). So if there's a legitimate chance (we don't need a guarantee, just the honest chance) of an after-sale then we'd probably do it.
Canon 7d
2 Canon 40d
70-200 f2.8L IS, 50mm f1.4, 50mm f1.8, 28mm f1.8, Tamron 17-55 f2.8, ProOptic 8mm Fisheye
And a bunch of other stuff
Thanks for the explanation! What seemed, at least to me, insane was in fact a calculated risk that paid off.
My mind is working on this................slowly but working none the less.
As for the photo shoot for my friend, well the chance of additional sales are like zero.
OH and before I forget......can you, or maybe why haven't you posted your website address here?
Sam
About the boring shots:
I do these in the beginning and I always use this line I got from another photographer. "O.K. let me first get the old fashion shots Grandma and Grandpa can't wait to see them". This does 2 things 1.)They usualy indeed purchase one of these poses for their parents-grandparents 2.)Will definately purchase the artsy stuff b/c who wants to be old fashion
DavidBroadwell.com, My Smugmug Home
As for your friend's shoot - if it's something interesting/challenging or can get us something "different" for our portfolio, we'd still consider it. Especially if it's music related, car related, or possibly model related. PM me. As long as we know what we're getting into, we're fine with it.
As for websites, we have 2 separate businesses... I haven't directly posted our URLS here because we hope to use this forum as a place we can discuss our business in relative privacy - so we don't want our business name popping up on Google with links to the forum. We're not hiding anything, we just like to be able to have frank discussions on the back-ground of our business with a reasonable expectation that most of our clients or potential clients won't see our comments... I'll be happy to send you links in private tho... and we do post photos periodically - just been SOOOO busy lately haven't had time to post many.
Canon 7d
2 Canon 40d
70-200 f2.8L IS, 50mm f1.4, 50mm f1.8, 28mm f1.8, Tamron 17-55 f2.8, ProOptic 8mm Fisheye
And a bunch of other stuff
Thanks again for your explanations. As to my friend, she is just a normal (well that's debatable) but from a photographic stand point not anything you could benefit from. But I sincerely thank you for the cinsideration.
Sam
Well...there is a first time for everything, but also a last. This will be my last!
I AM doing a 30 minute reshoot tomorrow, barring thunderstorms. The greatness out of this situation includes wording of my contract to put all "must have" shots as the responsibility of the client. They don't tell me, they don't get it.
On a lighter note, we redid that portion of the shoot and as a "token of their gratitude", they couple gave me a $15 panera gift card.
...