Advice on gels

Vich · May 10, 2010

Light color has been my biggest challenge to indoor event photography.

Yellowed and dark background, mixed colors, varying color due to distance to subject. It's just the biggest PP time killer and (to my eyes) a sore point in my final product.

I'm curious what solutions you have and what advice you can offer.

Amber sto-fen? Ambient only? Bounce flash? Gels? Off-camera flash? PP tricks? I could really use some tricks to help resolve this? It's just so beautiful to see good color.

Thanks much!

Scott_Quier · May 10, 2010

Just some rambling thoughts that may address your questions.

Off-color, but sufficient light - shoot RAW (D'oh). Get there early and shoot a gray card. Use that shot to either set a CWB in camera. Or, use it to adjust the color temperature/tint of the photos in PP - usually only a single click operation.
Off-color light, but not enough of it. Gel your flash to match (as closely as possible) the ambient. Shoot a gray card. See point #1 for the rest.
Personally, I find Sto-Fen to be a waste of money and so often mis-used by "professional" photographers. A couple or three options to consider:
- Bare flash, bounced off a wall, ceiling, or guest (in light colors clothing) conveniently positioned to act as a flash bounce
- A white "fun foam" card attached to the flash, the flash pointed to the ceiling for over-head bounce - works pretty well if the ceiling is not too high and it's a light color. Something like the Better Bounce Card but no need to pay his prices when they can be built for less then $0.50 (that's 50 cents) from meterials bought at crafts stores such as Michael's.
- How about the Light Scoop - see my siggy for a link.
Off-camera light will always (?) make for more interesting light but can take some time. Simply bouncing your flash will get your 95% there.

zoomer · May 10, 2010

In processing use your eyedropper and click on the white dress.

Vich · May 14, 2010

Scott - great little device. Your invention? Love the price! You put gels in that thing? I love off-camera shooting. Definitely not spur-of-the-moment typical event shooting but your device looks like it would work well on-camera as well.

Zoomer - I've not found white dresses to be all that reliably "white". Nor even party napkins for that matter.

I meant to ask about *indoor* shooting only. Apologies for being unclear.

Obviously; some flash is usually needed for a decent shot. The problem is mixed lights. Flash = 5500K, background and ambient = about 2200K to 4000K. Finding the right balance on the typical two-slider tint slides isn't as simple as merely finding the right K. Without a good reference it's nearly impossible - particularly on my uncorrected monitor. A single WB reference shot does little good (without gels) since distance and bounce will change the mix of ambient verses flash. ALso; walls and ceilings, as well as guest cloths, tend to be off colors - way off. Of course; a rec-room dropped ceiling is a nice shade of plain white, lol, but then there's the florescents!

I need to gel but I wanted some advice on it. Last trip to Sammy's they had about 100 different gels. Also attaching it - what's best?

I wondered if the amber-tinted sto-fen might be better since it's a simple attachment (no decisions, no rubber bands, no crinkled gels to mess with, easy to remove if I wonder outside). This flash do-dah of Scotts would gel the light without reducing it and diffusion looks wonderful. It eliminates bouncing but then so does any other attachment, doesn't it?.

Qarik · May 14, 2010

lookup phoxle gels

they stick on to your flash. That way you can still use any modifdier you choose. I use them and was referred to them by Jeffreaux.

tenoverthenose · May 14, 2010

My solution is to generally gel my flash close to the ambient. I really don't waste too much time on this, I eyeball the room and slap on my best guess. Then I set my flashes to be slightly more powerful than the ambient so as to light the couples by flash. Oh yeah, shoot raw.

Vich · May 14, 2010

Qarik:
Thanks! This is exactly the sort of advice I needed.

So; reusable sticky gels. Pricey but hassle free. They last well? I like that it's not 100 choices and neatly packaged. I'll give it a try!

It looks like they could also be stuck to the pop-out white reflector that comes on the 580EX.

tenoverthenose:
I agree about it not needing to be over thought trying to get exact. IMHO good (spot on) color (and exposure and focus) makes a massive difference.

RE: Overpowering flash. I usually go way up on ISO (1600 or 3200) to save on flash and bring in the ambient lighting (to avoid over-dark backgrounds). Are you advising to keep ISO *lower* so that flash is more overpowering? I wonder. It would be like my first 2 weddings ever when, like a complete rookie I used ISO 100 or 200 and had massive flash-burn and deer-in-the-headlights look.

This is counter-intuitive. Your portfolio is awesome and I don't want to be a jerk about missing new techniques. What am I missing?

tenoverthenose · May 14, 2010

I shoot most of my receptions with the 5DII and my starting ISO is 1600. I'm happy to go up from there up to 6400 I want to. I like to keep my ISO in a range where I can get some ambient light in if I choose. Sometime I will even turn off my lights and just use ambient, so it's important to me to be in that working range. From there, I can work my aperture/shutter up or down to add or remove ambient/flash as I desire.

My point however is that when I use a flash, I generally like it to be a bit brighter than the ambient. If you do this, and have the flash gelled close to the ambient color, then your subject will be lit mostly by your flash and the ambient comes close in color.

Here the groom & mother are lit with a flash gelled with a full CTO. Then when I shoot and include a candle in the frame it's not too crazy of a difference.

In the second example, the flashes were gelled to match the room and the flashes provide a stronger highlight than ambient light, but the color is not distracting.

That's how I roll, not that it makes it the "right" way.

heatherfeather · May 14, 2010

I use Phoxles... but need about 5 more sets, one for each flash. They have lasted over a year just fine, but do be warned that the colors will run if they get wet.

tenoverthenose · May 14, 2010

heatherfeather wrote: »

I use Phoxles... but need about 5 more sets, one for each flash. They have lasted over a year just fine, but do be warned that the colors will run if they get wet.

No problems with those getting too hot on directly on the flash lens? I used to use a hand made set from larger sheets, then I switched to David Honl gels setup out of laziness

Also, I love his simple modifiers - the grids are by far my favorite wedding lighting tool.

heatherfeather · May 14, 2010

tenoverthenose wrote: »

No problems with those getting too hot on directly on the flash lens? I used to use a hand made set from larger sheets, then I switched to David Honl gels setup out of laziness Also, I love his simple modifiers - the grids are by far my favorite wedding lighting tool.

It doesn't get too hot... but then again I use a battery pack.

Vich · May 15, 2010

Very nice lighting and color Patrick. You said "slightly higher than ambient". Not "overpowering". So, normal flash really.

Both of those shots show lots of ambient shadows on the subjects. It appears like little or no flash or off-camera. Man, that 5Dii sucks light! I thought my 7D was pretty good at high ISO!

Do you normally use flash modifiers besides the gels described?

Curious on the first shot - what lens? Beautiful bokeh!

jeffreaux2 · May 15, 2010

+1 for the Phoxle gel set. Ive been using a set for nearly two years....but mostly use the blue out doors in shade.

For matching them to incandescent.....

- Set in camera white balance to "auto"

-Shoot a correctly exposed frame filling shot of a white target....I use a sheet of white card stock. Correctly exposed, the histogram should hold all of the data to the right side, but not overexposed. ie- make sure the white card stock is represented as white on the histogram. The resulting image will appear as a yellowish orange frame.

-The phoxles are kept in a case with white backing....or using a LEE or Roscoe....set your CTO gels out on the white cardstock and compare to your orangish image of the cardstock using the camera's LCD. Find a match....and then grab the next darker CTO gel. (This WORKS!!!)

-Set in camera custom white balance with the target shot being the orangish image of the cardstock and slap the chosen gel on the flash head.

-Shoot away.

-Adjust white balance in a RAW editor.....my Canon is generally cooler than my tastes so.....

- and remember that if the flash is a tad warmer than the ambient it will nearly always be more pleasing than if things were the other way around

-also...if you are over powering the ambient....and not letting it contribute light to the image...well...then no gel is needed. Use an in camera white balance set to "flash".

FlyNavy · May 18, 2010

Give these DIY gels a try. They work great for me.

http://celticland.com/about/diy-flash-gels/

Cheers,
John

GoofBckt · June 8, 2010

My "trailer trash" version: Get a clear piece of packing tape, color it with a yellow highlighter and tape it over your flash, leaving one end hanging off for easy removal. Throw it away when done. Highlighters come in lots of colors now too. (and cheap)
~Carrie

FlyNavy wrote: »

Give these DIY gels a try. They work great for me.

http://celticland.com/about/diy-flash-gels/

Cheers,
John

mmmatt · June 9, 2010

I'm all about side wall bouncing. The lightsource from your tiny little speedlight gets huge after it hits a wall and mixes with the ambient. Wall bouncing allows you to flash to the side of a group and light groups that extend away from you evenly or light the whole room if you want. In-shot I have noticed that my color temps are pretty consistent throughout, but every shot is a little different white ballance depending on what you are bouncing off of. I can color balance a few shots at a time or if I am shooting from a static location many at a time, but if I am moving around the room the light his hitting people and walls and returning a bit different each time. This isn't from my wedding work, but the past couple of springs I have shot a bunch of proms to work on this stuff. I put a little gallery together showing examples of my technique with some annotations if you are interested. Here is the gallery. The even lighting and even coloration are just side benefits though... the real benefit is the large, soft directional lighting you can get. The downside is that you need to color ballance each shot (unless you have white walls), and exposures vary since the bouncing can confuse the ettl.

Matt

GoofBckt · June 9, 2010

These are awesome. You are a master of light!

mmmatt wrote: »

I'm all about side wall bouncing. The lightsource from your tiny little speedlight gets huge after it hits a wall and mixes with the ambient. Wall bouncing allows you to flash to the side of a group and light groups that extend away from you evenly or light the whole room if you want. In-shot I have noticed that my color temps are pretty consistent throughout, but every shot is a little different white ballance depending on what you are bouncing off of. I can color balance a few shots at a time or if I am shooting from a static location many at a time, but if I am moving around the room the light his hitting people and walls and returning a bit different each time. This isn't from my wedding work, but the past couple of springs I have shot a bunch of proms to work on this stuff. I put a little gallery together showing examples of my technique with some annotations if you are interested. Here is the gallery. The even lighting and even coloration are just side benefits though... the real benefit is the large, soft directional lighting you can get. The downside is that you need to color ballance each shot (unless you have white walls), and exposures vary since the bouncing can confuse the ettl.

Matt

mmmatt · June 10, 2010

GoofBckt wrote: »

These are awesome. You are a master of light!

Well... I'm going with student, but you can spread all the rumors you like!

Matt

barbnjon · June 12, 2010

mmmatt wrote: »

Well... I'm going with student, but you can spread all the rumors you like!

Matt

So, how are you color balancing these shots? With gels, I assume. Nice work. Do you ever use the black foamie thing suggested in Neil's book?

mmmatt · June 13, 2010

barbnjon wrote: »

So, how are you color balancing these shots? With gels, I assume. Nice work. Do you ever use the black foamie thing suggested in Neil's book?

No, gels will do you no good because every spot you bounce from has different color temp based on where the light is bouncing and the ambient that is there. How would you know which gel to use? My light + the color of that wall + the light from the chandelier = what? Not always drastic differences mind you. I find that if the room is pretty consistent in it's wall coloring I can shoot a white card (or table cloth, napkin, white sock etc) and do a custom white balance to get closer than with AWB. I still end up going through them all though to 2x check. It is typically closer but still not right on.

To color balance I use camera raw and just use the dropper. If I can't find white I can usually get pretty close clicking on black and sometimes gray. But use your eyes either way.

I had someone suggest (may have been Niel) to use a foam snoot made from a beer bottle coolie. I think they are neoprene similar to wetsuit material or smugmug straps and usually have a beer brand logo on them. I use them inside out to hide the label. I haven't really noticed any difference with or without it. I think that you blast a few less people in the face with the flash if you use it but I'm not sure it helps provide any more or any better light.

Matt

Qarik · June 13, 2010

all the foamie thing does is prevent direct light spillage on to the subject. this insure all the light is nice and soft and large

mmmatt · June 13, 2010

Qarik wrote: »

all the foamie thing does is prevent direct light spillage on to the subject. this insure all the light is nice and soft and large

That makes some sence Qarik. I deon't think it matters in darlker venues but in better lit ones it could make a large difference. I'll pull it out again for the next one and see what happens.
Matt

Vich · July 9, 2010

heatherfeather wrote: »

I use Phoxles... but need about 5 more sets, one for each flash. They have lasted over a year just fine, but do be warned that the colors will run if they get wet.

I got a Phoxles set. Much cleaner (read: more organized and transportable) method than a mash of 3x10 gel strips.

I was disappointed I couldn't find an amber sto-fen for diffusion but made an amazing discovery ... I don't need it!

(in my living room) I pasted on the 3100K Phoxel and set the camera WB to "Tungsten". The color looks perfect using direct flash of a colorful throw-rug (reds, blues, black, and grays).

Now I put a white sto-fen over the gel and ... SAME COLOR (only more evenly spread)! I was really expecting the white sto-fen to cause a mix of colors and wash out the 3200.

This isn't too scientific - when I get more time I'll experiment with taking careful notes on a white paper/tripod and import then check eyedropper temperatures but just eyeballing the LCD I can't see any color difference.

Previous method: I took a large $7 gel sheet of 204 (3200K), cut it into 3x10 strips.

Rubber banding a strip over the top of the Sto-Fen had the same (enough) color effect as the 3100K Phoxel under the Sto-Fen.

Conclusion: Gels work as well as the Phoxel, just less convenient - plus I'd have to buy about 10 sheets to get all the Phoxel colors. I also have some 206 sheets cut (4600K) that can be combined to step down - those are 1/4 the strength of a 204 so 4 stacked 206 is identical to a 204 - explanation here, but that doesn't cover the upward conversions (blue).

Advice on gels

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