Film buffs: What's this weird spot?

schmoo · March 14, 2011

So I recently got this really sweet, gorgeous, beautiful, clean Soviet FED-2 rangefinder camera and just got back the first roll of film developed. With horror, I noticed that some (though not all) of the shots have light-leak-looking things through it and I worry it is something with the lens, shutter, how I rewound/removed the film or if it's an issue with the lab when they developed it.

Or maybe it's the film itself, since I did dig it out of my office and it's probably a year or two old.

Or maybe I just need this thing to be serviced. :rolleyes

Here's a few examples:

It definitely seems to have gotten worse closer to the end of the roll. This was the last frame I shot:

And here are a few shots where I don't see that mark, or maybe it's just less visible:

Any ideas at all would be really helpful, since I'm pretty new to vintage cameras... especially 35mm rangefinders.

I'll run another roll through ASAP but I thought maybe someone here knows right off the bat what's up.

Thanks (and sorry for being such a n00b)!

Matthew Saville · March 14, 2011

I would absolutely go back to the lab and ask to talk to whoever processed the film, because chance are they're experienced enough to know what might be causing this issue. Just go in there and DON'T blame them of screwing up outright, just offer up the images, mention what type of camera you used, and ask their opinion. The washed out parts definitely look like a light leak, but the line looks like an issue that could be caused by a more serious issue with the emulsion of the film being damaged. Since it's vertical and not horizontal, it probably isn't a wheel or roller inside the camera that is dragging across from frame to frame; that would be a horizontal line through a horizontal image. Since this is a vertical line though horizontal images, I'm going to guess that something happened to the roll while it was rolled up, in a single band running down one side. Almost as if you took a razor and sliced a cut down the side of the film canister and just let light leak in for a while. It could have been that the port where the film comes out was damaged, and light leaked into the film canister. But that would put the worst part of it at the BEGINNING of your roll, not the end. If this is at the end of the roll, the damage came from the inside out, so I might suspect that it was either damaged while in processing, OR there is a light leak at the END (right hand side?) of your camera, and you let the film sit in the camera after shooting the last frame and there is a light leak on the right hand side. Wait a minute, the VERY last frame wouldn't have that line then because it would never leave the exposure frame before being rolled back into the camera! So, we're back to square one. Either it happened during processing, or there is something vertically touching / crushing / exposing the film as it passes the exposure frame.

Definitely shoot another few rolls, and just use gaffer's tape to cover up various parts of the camera for each different roll. Seal up the top and bottom cracks for one roll, then seal up the left and right edge cracks for another roll, then seal up the whole dang back for a third roll. Try and keep everything else consistent, meaning don't let one roll sit in the camera for a month but shoot another roll in two days. That's a completely different experiment for another two rolls,

!

All in all, I think you're either going to have to tape up the back of the camera for each roll, and/or the lab just messed up. But definitely go back to the lab and ask them their opinion. Oh, one more thing. Look at the actual negatives themselves, and tell me if that vertical band is present on JUST the exposed image, or also the above and below edges where the holes are? If it's just the exposed image, then you KNOW it's a problem within the exposure frame area, maybe the shutter (which could be a horizontal traveling shutter) is messing up right there at that one point. However if the white band extends above and below the image, then it's most likely a light leak elsewhere in the camera, or a processing error.

Oh and since the film is a year old, I would also perform a test with ZERO tape etc. just using a brand new roll. Shoot the entire roll very quickly and get it processed soon. Don't let the camera sit anywhere bright for very long, or if you do REMEMBER which exposure it is!

Also, when diagnosing light leaks and other image- area related issues, REMEMBER that an image is captured upside down and backwards lol. So that red blob in the lower left of some images was actually created in the upper right edge of the camera's frame. ;-)

Wow, that was geeky! Good luck...

=Matt=

schmoo · March 14, 2011

Wow, thanks Matt that was some really awesome advice, much better than anything I was expecting. I will definitely buy a bunch of fresh film and go nuts. I really, really hope it isn't the camera itself since I believe that they service each camera before shipment at Fedka.

Lots to do in the next couple of weeks. Thanks again for your expertise!

Art Scott · March 14, 2011

That is truly weird.....as film travels in a horizontal direction in both the camera and the film developing machines...all sratches should be running horizontally and not vertically.........Look the film over real good, use a magnifier to see if their is emulsion that has been pulled off these frames and stuck to another frame.....very gently slide your fingernail over the frames to see if you can feel the difference.....The emulsion side is the dull side and also if you are looking at film and you can easily read the film info that is NOT the emulsion side.....Good Luck.....What lens mount do Fedka cams come in....Kiev Camera in Atlanta, kievcamera.net ..... had Kiev's in Canon, Pentax and Nikon mounts at one time a few years back......I bought several 2 1/4 cams from them and was very satisfied with them and the lenses.........

schmoo · March 14, 2011

Thanks, Art! Yeah the more I look at it, the more I'm worried it's the camera.

However, I did (already!) hear back from Yuri at Fedka and he's extending the 10-day warranty for me so I can run a few more rolls through it. I love good customer service (and a helpful community)

I'm definitely no camera expert but I know the FED-2 uses Leica screw mount lenses. Which comes in handy when your coworkers have good Leica glass.

ziggy53 · March 14, 2011

Light leaks are fairly common for these Russian cameras. One of the reasons that I have the 2 copies of the FED 5 cameras that I have is because they came with ever-ready cases. The camera case actually lends an extra buffer of light seal to the camera and I have not had any issues with light leaks in my use.

The suggestion of using fresh film will certainly help to identify if the older film was a contributor to the problems.

Also, which lens were you using? Some lenses are known to leak light.

schmoo · March 14, 2011

Hey Zigs, that's good to know that the cameras are known to have such quirks. I don't actually mind light leaks since my other film camera is a Diana, but I would prefer them to be random, not consistent!

I'm shooting with the Industar-26M, which I believe was the "kit" lens for the FED-2. Although I would like to get a Jupiter-8 or Jupiter-12 soon.

ziggy53 · March 14, 2011

I think that the Industar-26M is not subject to the light leak problems. I'm trying to find which lenses did have issues but it relates to poor seals at some point of adjustment, I believe something to do with aperture adjustment.

Photogbiker · March 14, 2011

Maybe?
As usual you got great advice from 3 of the best on here. One thing I don't think was mentioned yet is lens flare. These old, non-multi-coated lenses would flare if they even heard the sun might be rising soon. I didn't study your photos exhaustively, but it appears the spots are only on the brighter photos shot on sunny days. A couple maybe even angled towards the sun, while the good shots are indoors, dog in a shady yard, etc.

Throw another roll in, tape up the back, and then shoot with sun in front of you (but not in frame of course), sun to your back, and then some indoors or totally shaded areas under the trees. If the sunny ones consistently have spots and others don't, you will have learned the limitations of your lens.

Good luck.

David_S85 · March 14, 2011

Could something in or near the shutter mechanism be scratching the film? The line seems consistent in a few of them.

Matthew Saville · March 15, 2011

Art Scott wrote: »

That is truly weird.....as film travels in a horizontal direction in both the camera and the film developing machines...all sratches should be running horizontally and not vertically.........Look the film over real good, use a magnifier to see if their is emulsion that has been pulled off these frames and stuck to another frame.....very gently slide your fingernail over the frames to see if you can feel the difference.....The emulsion side is the dull side and also if you are looking at film and you can easily read the film info that is NOT the emulsion side.....Good Luck.....What lens mount do Fedka cams come in....Kiev Camera in Atlanta, kievcamera.net ..... had Kiev's in Canon, Pentax and Nikon mounts at one time a few years back......I bought several 2 1/4 cams from them and was very satisfied with them and the lenses.........

Good point, about checking the emulsion to see if you can tell which side of the film is "scratched" or affected.

Art, I agree with your confusion about the line being vertical instead of horizontal. One thing to remember is, rangefinder cameras often have horizontally traveling shutters, which are made of cloth. A horizontally traveling shutter COULD have "light" problems in a vertical orientation, if you can imagine what I mean.

=Matt=

Art Scott · March 15, 2011

Matthew Saville wrote: »

Good point, about checking the emulsion to see if you can tell which side of the film is "scratched" or affected.

Art, I agree with your confusion about the line being vertical instead of horizontal. One thing to remember is, rangefinder cameras often have horizontally traveling shutters, which are made of cloth. A horizontally traveling shutter COULD have "light" problems in a vertical orientation, if you can imagine what I mean.

=Matt=

Yeah...should have thought of that since I used both Old (pre-1980's) and newer (post 1980's) range finder (loved that fujica 645 folding rangefinder).....thanks for reminding me.......now I am depressed Missing that Fujica....

....can you send me a few hundred for the counseling session:D:D

rofl

schmoo · March 15, 2011

You guys are awesome! I am pretty new to the cloth style shutter that this has, though it's very cool. I didn't know that it could perform differently when held in the vertical position. Which kind of sucks because I like shooting that way! But going now through the set of scans, it looks like all of the ones I shot portrait-style have some sort of overall light leak. Very informative (and kind of cool in a way).

When I got home last night I checked the negatives and while I completely forgot to test which side was affected, I did notice that the lines and smudges traveled out of the frame into the borders with the sprocket holes. So I think this indicates it was a lab error, right?

I have finished a second test roll and am going to take it to a different lab this afternoon. I can't thank you guys enough again for all your help. I'm learning tons.

met · March 15, 2011

schmoo wrote: »

I know nothing about film, so have nothing to add to that discussion in that way - but I just wanted to tell you that I love these two photos. Is that SOOC or did you do anything to the scan? And now you've inspired me want to get an old vintage film camera. How much is it to buy one like the Soviet one you have?

schmoo · March 15, 2011

met wrote: »

I know nothing about film, so have nothing to add to that discussion in that way - but I just wanted to tell you that I love these two photos. Is that SOOC or did you do anything to the scan? And now you've inspired me want to get an old vintage film camera. How much is it to buy one like the Soviet one you have?

Hi Molly and thanks for the compliment!

I actually did nothing but open the CD I got from the lab and drag the files right into my SmugMug uploader.

I love the look of film too, and I noticed that the film I used here (Fuji Superia 400) has both a warm tone in some cases and cool tones in others. Normally I have to tweak and tweak in Photoshop to get that look from my 5D!

And this is the camera I have. They run roughly $100, although you can find both more expensive and less expensive ones. I highly highly recommend buying from Fedka.com if you're in the States. He's in NY and cleans up the cameras very nicely before you get them. If you get from Ebay or something you'll have to deal with customs, international shipping, and occasionally language barriers (as well as cameras that may need additional servicing before they can work).

Oh and I use this iPhone app to help me determine the shutter speed, since the FED-2 doesn't have a lightmeter.

I personally liked the shape and history of the FED-2 but there is a whole world of Soviet cameras out there. Google helps, as does the FSU Rangefinders area on the Rangefinder forum.

HTH!

Qarik · March 15, 2011

film? you too!?! I am going to say now..I will never get a film camera..I will never get a film camera..I will never geta film camera!

schmoo · March 15, 2011

Qarik wrote: »

film? you too!?! I am going to say now..I will never get a film camera..I will never get a film camera..I will never geta film camera!

Haha, you know you want to....

schmoo · March 15, 2011

Just an update: I took 24 crappy shots with a fresh roll of film and had it developed at a different (reputable) lab. The prints came out perfectly so it was definitely a case of the first lab screwing up. I know now not to go back there. Thank god that roll was just a test and not something really important!

I can't thank you guys enough for all your input and help. I learned a lot in the last couple of days!

Now to take some real pics with this thing...

David_S85 · March 16, 2011

Yea! It still could have been a b0rked roll, but great news that the camera seems to be in working order.

Those "crappy shots?" You gonna post any?

schmoo · March 16, 2011

David_S85 wrote: »

Yea! It still could have been a b0rked roll, but great news that the camera seems to be in working order.

Those "crappy shots?" You gonna post any?

Seriously. I am so happy I could cabbage patch! I know Fedka has a good warranty but I am already in love with this camera. Should Yuri have needed to replace it he'd have to pry it out of my cold, dead hands.

You really want to see what a cloudy day looks like around SmugMug HQ? I was really just trying to use up film as quickly as possible. These are horrid:

I don't even know what type of film this is. I bought a 4-pack at the local Walgreens. Needless to say I am really looking forward to my shipment of Kodak Ektar and Portra!

craig_d · March 16, 2011

Qarik, you need a film camera! Pick up a nice old Nikon that can use the same lenses as your D700. It'll make a great gateway drug for you. An F100 would be just the thing.

Or if you want to get serious right away, pick up an FE, FM, or F3, any of which will work with all your non-G lenses (though of course you'll have to focus manually). Come on, you know you want to!

David_S85 · March 16, 2011

Like this one the best!

schmoo · March 16, 2011

David_S85 wrote: »

Like this one the best!

Haha thanks. I can't wait to take it out this weekend and do some street shooting with it. I recently, uh, learned about hyperfocal distance which is a lifesaver with these manual lenses.

20DNoob · March 16, 2011

Glad to see it wasn't the camera that mucked up the shots. I had run into the same issue with a place scratching some of my negs when I first got my RF.

schmoo · March 16, 2011

20DNoob wrote: »

Glad to see it wasn't the camera that mucked up the shots. I had run into the same issue with a place scratching some of my negs when I first got my RF.

Yikes, sorry to hear that too... and also t hat it's not as uncommon an error as it probably should be. When I wrote to Yuri he said something to the effect of it's a shame that people are losing skills as film becomes less popular.

Which is probably true, but I'm hopeful it'll pick back up as the novelty of film increases in the digital age.

Art Scott · March 16, 2011

schmoo wrote: »

I don't even know what type of film this is. I bought a 4-pack at the local Walgreens. Needless to say I am really looking forward to my shipment of Kodak Ektar and Portra!

Need to check out FREESTYLE Photo in LA...they used to have really great b/w and also color films from Europe and Japan and other places.........they also sell Holga's and other stuff....all at great prices.................

Glad it was not yur cam.

schmoo · March 16, 2011

Art Scott wrote: »

Need to check out FREESTYLE Photo in LA...they used to have really great b/w and also color films from Europe and Japan and other places.........they also sell Holga's and other stuff....all at great prices.................

Glad it was not yur cam.

Hey Art, funny that you just posted that: I just got in the first portion of my film order and though Digitaltruth ships from various distributors, I see mine did come from Freestyle.

Art Scott · March 16, 2011

schmoo wrote: »

Hey Art, funny that you just posted that: I just got in the first portion of my film order and though Digitaltruth ships from various distributors, I see mine did come from Freestyle.

When i got started into Photography the local stores decided to only keep PRO film on hand for the pros that could afford to buy a case of pro packs (that is a box of 5 rolls of 120 / 220 film) at regular retail prices.....You did not have to pay for it upfront, but it had to be paid off with in 90 days...so I hunted through the mags looking for film resellers and found FreeStyle....made my first order of a few 120/220 and 35 mm films and the rest was history...it got to where I had nearly as much film in my deep freeze as I did food.......and they had some really good german film that was a bitch to decipher the developing instruction since I had to go to the library and decode it from a dictionary and then find someone that could give me a microdol or some other developer equivalent....but I loved their service and bought several different leather portfolios from them.........

Hope you have tons o fun with that filmy...they are great.........

ian408 · March 17, 2011

I'm glad you got it figured out.

One thing I was thinking is the stripes almost look like something that's leached through the paper and onto the film. The more disturbing thing is the light on the edges. That almost looks like the camera was opened or maybe not 100% closed.

schmoo · March 17, 2011

Haha Art that is a funny story, particularly trying to follow German directions.

I just found out after the fact that Kodak isn't going to make Portra anymore. That kind of makes me sad because I still have yet to try that stuff. Already it's backordered.

Anyway, I have a ways to go if I have to fill my freezer with film!

Ian I think you're right that there were several (bad) things going on with that first roll. There is the line through the frame, and the light leaks around the edges. I'm still not sure if the latter was me or the lab because it was the first time I'd loaded and unloaded film from this sort of camera, but Imma gonna just blame the lab on this one.

Looking forward to shooting more with this over the weekend and probably on Tuesday if I can pick up a roll of 800 speed film.

ian408 · March 17, 2011

My experience has been the first few times you load a camera with roll film, you're gonna lose a couple of frames

I need to shoot more film through the 645.

Film buffs: What's this weird spot?

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