35mm to digital

snookman23 · August 29, 2005

I am considering scanning my 35mm film to edit on my computer so I can make prints for sale. My first thought was to have the local lab scan the film, then I would adjust, crop etc. at home and then have the lab make prints. I have a several part question:

1. Are the adjustments you can make while scanning (ie buying a film scanner) REALLY that much different than making adjustments in Photoshop (ie having the shop scan)?
2. If I am going to have the lab make prints, is there any point to buying a monitor calibration device? If so, is there a way to calibrate with the lab?
3. Or should I just stop all of this crazy digital nonsense until a buy a dslr and make friends with the lab guy so I can have them do color adjustments as I look over his shoulder?

David_S85 · August 29, 2005

Welcome, Snook

Welcome to DGrin forums!

Not knowing much about #1, since I don't own a scanner, let's see what others have to contribute. I will be watching this thread, as I have hundreds of rolls from days past to scan.

With regards to #2, many people have been having calibration problems with even the newer monitor calibrators. Forums here and there are full of questions about how to calibrate with these devices. Either the instructions are difficult, or the results are not automatic or consistant enough yet. You would be best to learn your way around PS (or PSP) with the grey, white and black points, and live always by the histogram. Then you might not ever need to calibrate a monitor. I've just always used those grey scale swatches (web-based) to figure gamma, brightness and contrast. Color is a bit more difficult. Digital is all about numbers. Once you get that nailed down, then better results will follow for sure.

On #3, yes, buy a dSLR. If you already have the skills learned from film SLR's, then you won't regret it. Photoshop (or PSP) is your friend.

snookman23 wrote:

I am considering scanning my 35mm film to edit on my computer so I can make prints for sale. My first thought was to have the local lab scan the film, then I would adjust, crop etc. at home and then have the lab make prints. I have a several part question:

1. Are the adjustments you can make while scanning (ie buying a film scanner) REALLY that much different than making adjustments in Photoshop (ie having the shop scan)?
2. If I am going to have the lab make prints, is there any point to buying a monitor calibration device? If so, is there a way to calibrate with the lab?
3. Or should I just stop all of this crazy digital nonsense until a buy a dslr and make friends with the lab guy so I can have them do color adjustments as I look over his shoulder?

David_S85 · August 30, 2005

'nother bump
Can anyone help snook with this?

snookman23 wrote:

I am considering scanning my 35mm film to edit on my computer so I can make prints for sale. My first thought was to have the local lab scan the film, then I would adjust, crop etc. at home and then have the lab make prints. I have a several part question:

1. Are the adjustments you can make while scanning (ie buying a film scanner) REALLY that much different than making adjustments in Photoshop (ie having the shop scan)?
2. If I am going to have the lab make prints, is there any point to buying a monitor calibration device? If so, is there a way to calibrate with the lab?
3. Or should I just stop all of this crazy digital nonsense until a buy a dslr and make friends with the lab guy so I can have them do color adjustments as I look over his shoulder?

DavidTO · August 30, 2005

snookman23 wrote:

I am considering scanning my 35mm film to edit on my computer so I can make prints for sale. My first thought was to have the local lab scan the film, then I would adjust, crop etc. at home and then have the lab make prints. I have a several part question:

1. Are the adjustments you can make while scanning (ie buying a film scanner) REALLY that much different than making adjustments in Photoshop (ie having the shop scan)?
2. If I am going to have the lab make prints, is there any point to buying a monitor calibration device? If so, is there a way to calibrate with the lab?
3. Or should I just stop all of this crazy digital nonsense until a buy a dslr and make friends with the lab guy so I can have them do color adjustments as I look over his shoulder?

The latitude that you have when scanning is very different than you do in PS after the fact. This is always the case. It's like the difference between negative and print. If you have someone else scan the film, you're stuck with their decisions in the print--you can adjust it, but not by nearly as much as you can when scanning.

There are 255 shades of gray in digital (unless you scan 16 bit, which may make sense) compared to film. I forget the number for film, but it's much, much larger. Don't let someone else make that decision for you, unless you really trust them, IMO.

colourbox · August 31, 2005

My feelings are the same as DavidTO. Sticking film in a scanner is like sticking film in an enlarger. The skill level at the scanning stage is so critical that a bad operator can use a good scanner to make a bad scan, and a good operator can make a bad scanner look fine. A critical issue is setting the black and white points. If the scanner operator sets them too wide, there won't be enough contrast, but that can be fixed easily in Photoshop, especially with a 16-bit scan. If either the black or white points are set too far in, that will result in clipping, which loses data that absolutely cannot be recovered in Photoshop. With color, setting the black and white points must be done properly in each channel, or else the color balance is off and must be fixed in Photoshop. And again, if any of the color channels is improperly clipped at the high or low end, it's going to be a lot harder to fix the color balance in Photoshop due to the unrecoverable loss (unless you scan it again, right). As long as the scan picks up all the useful information on the film, then Photoshop can be used to full effect. That's the goal.

I decided to learn how to scan so that I would have control over the prints that I want to sell. One problem is, I'm still learning. I would say, first, calibrate your monitor with a hardware calibrator, and use scanning software that uses the monitor profile. If you get that far, you have a fair chance of getting color-balanced, good-contrast scans right out of the scanner with less Photoshop tweakage needed. If you don't use a hardware calibrator, it doesn't matter what you do, you'll never really know how far off you are unless you can translate the RGB numbers on the Info palette. Your job will be a little harder with negatives, but a 16-bit workflow helps a lot there. So does scanning software that actually has profiles for negative film types (like VueScan).

I learned a lot from the book Real World Photoshop.

DavidTO · August 31, 2005

colourbox, having more experience with it was able to add details that I couldn't. I work in the film industry, and see this over and over again, although I've never scanned negative myself. Good info there!

snookman23 · September 2, 2005

Scanner
Thanks for the help so far.

Im looking at the Epson 4990 (Pro probably for the better software), Nikon Coolscan V ED, microtek i900 or the Canon canoscan 9950f

Im leaning towards the Epson for batch scans, flatbed use. Any suggestions or comments. It has silverfast ai, is this compatible to vuescan? It looks like it has profiles for film and all that jazz.

Have a Happy Labor Day!!!!!!!

GraphyFotoz · September 4, 2005

I did quite well
I scanned a bunch pics from my 35mm days.
Played with em a bit in PS to clear up discoloring and such.
Came out great I thought.

One of my favorites
Canon A1 with Tamron 60-300mm zoom Kodak Ektar64 film (Tiffen Skylight 81A filter)

Here are the rest of em
http://public.fotki.com/Karz/pics_i_have_scanned/my_semi-pro_35mm_days/

colourbox · September 4, 2005

I don't know about Silverfast ai, since bundled software is often less featured than retail, but Silverfast and VueScan are both high quality. Silverfast costs more, has a friendlier interface, but you buy a separate copy for each scanner model. VueScan costs less, has a less friendly interface, but one copy supports a very long list of scanners. If you just have one scanner and SilverFast came with it, that oughta be a good deal.

pathfinder · September 4, 2005

Welcome to dgrin Snookman23. I gather you are a fisherman..?? How long did it take you to learn to catch snook?? YOU probably began with blue gills or bass, not snook - right??

I began slide scanning with a Nikon CoolScan IV 35mm scanner back in 1999 and Photoshop 5. YOU can definitely do a better job yourself IF you know what you are doing in regard to digital color. But there is a significant learning curve because to get the best results you will need to have some understanding of slide scanning, slide scanners, slide scanner software and Photoshops' use and understanding. My learning curve has extended over the last five years and I am still learning. Go to Hamrick.com and read a little about scanning and the use of VueScan. I recommend it highly. The best $40 you'll spend in scanning software.
I have had slides scanned by my local photostore and will not do it again as they were terrible in quality. Dirty, dusty, poor color. Not Acceptable - and this was from brand new shots, not slides aged over 50 years in an attic. I prefer good images and appropriate color. This slide was shot in 1944..and scanned by myself and a Nikon CoolScan IV - not a real high end film scanner . I know the date as this is my mother in Fort Sam Houston.

The investment is not insignificant finanacially either for a good film scanner and Photoshop and a calibrated monitor. Flat bed scanners are fair, but despite what you may read on the web, I have yet to see one that is as good an a real film scanner. Nikon and Canon and Minolta all make excellent ones. In addition to the cost of setting up for the project is the time commitment - figure 5 - 10 minutes per slide when you are skilled and fast - the scanner won't take that long, but to tune the image in PS and crop and save it certainly will. So maybe 10 slides an hour - How many do you plan to scan?? I have scanned hundreds and hundreds from the 1940s and 1950s.

Here is a thread where this discussion has been previously on dgrin...
http://www.dgrin.com/archive/index.php/t-824.html

And another
http://www.digitalgrin.com/showthread.php?t=4214&page=1&pp=10

So it comes down to time, money, committment. I rather enjoy scanning old family slides - but I suspect many commercial ( but not PRO quality labs ) are not up to my standards. Pro labs WILL do a good job - but not at 50 cents a slide - maybe 10 or 20 dollars a slide - or lots more for a first quality drum scan.

The good thing about the learnign curve is that once you ascend it, it will all be good for use witha digital camera - which, after all, is a portable real time scanner - and you can put all your learning about scanning and Photoshop to use with its images also

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35mm to digital

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