I got problems!

jbakerphoto · April 6, 2011

I got a problem!

Basically I have been shooting a barrel racing org for about a year. I have been printing mostly onsite but lately I have not been doing too well money wise. This has led me to go through assistants like my son goes through gummy bears.

So about 2 months ago the organizer approached me and asked how much 55 8x10 prints would cost for the year end award pictures. I quoted them a little cheap thinking ok it will just be gravy (Meaning it will not affect my race photo sales) and they have been super nice to me over the past year. So I got the check from them and then they started talking about it being for either race photos or award pictures which is totally different from what I quoted them with her reasoning being that people might not want a picture of them self with just a headstall or they might not be able to make it to the event. Obviously the problem, (besides quoting too low and not doing it in writing) It could kill my onsite print sales for the race photos (and future races) and if I ditch onsite printing in the near future and goto onsite ordering I will have to charge for shipping. Ohh and tax man is coming as well so I need the money.

Any ideas on how to make this a win-win with out giving the money back and pissing them off because they have to get another award. I suppose one of these days I will figure out what the heck I am doing but until then enlighten me.

Glort · April 6, 2011

I suppose my own concern would be proportionate to how much the difference was between my normal price for the prints and the amount I discounted them tempered by the probability that if they bought 55 prints you'll be lucky if the riders actually redeem 40 of them.
Of course some will also get the award phots rather than the riding shots.

To me it would seem that your potential loss is very little to none.

You could also possibly do a package for the riders redeeming the award pics at the events and say discount A second print or CD so you do get some $$ in the door and come out with extra over your award/ normal print costs. Not ideal i realise but really at the end of the day it's what you can bring home that counts.

The way I look it is is if I can get another $10 out of a client that would not have otherwise spent that, even If I am discounting the price $20 ( with a justification) i'm still that much better off.

Have you acertained any reason for your sales droping?
I have been working the same organisation for the last 2 years and thought that sales would taper off but they seem to have been pretty even. We try to offer new products when we can think of something and change the marketing a bit as well.

I tried online as well as onsite last year and early this year and it was a flop. i'm going back to the "today or never" model although tempering that by having all the previous event pics on a couple of Vstations for people that missed out last time to order this time.

I have also found that change is a good thing. If you could change the look of your trailer by painting it or get some new banners even if they say the same thing or just look like your moving and updating can be a help.
I'm considering getting another colour tent just to create some new interest.

Another thing I have done is venture a little farther afield. this has worked real well because although there is a bit of extra effort in getting there, the area has not had a shooter cover events before so the smaller crowds are making up for Volume with a lot more enthuastic sales.
The back end is that when I do less events closer to home, the ones I do cover are also keen to see me again so sales have been up a little there as well.

I have also started putting up a slide show on the events i have covered which has got me good exposure to new areas and offers to cover other events. It also creates interest in the pics for next time I am in the area.

I tried onsite ordering only a couple of times and it made no difference to sales at all. Postage and packaging is a real pain though and the post is a bit iffy in some regional areas here as well so ai had to reprint and resend a couple of orders each time. For the time being, i'll stick with the onsite printing as it causes us no hassel at all.

Sam · April 6, 2011

This seems simple to me. You quoted a price for 55 8X10 photos. Your client accepted your quote and paid you.

If there was any misunderstanding with regard to how they would be used, and that the use could effect your pricing, the responsibility for this on you.

Sam

jbakerphoto · April 6, 2011

Glort wrote: »

You could also possibly do a package for the riders redeeming the award pics at the events and say discount A second print or CD so you do get some $$ in the door and come out with extra over your award/ normal print costs. Not ideal i realize but really at the end of the day it's what you can bring home that counts.

The way I look it is is if I can get another $10 out of a client that would not have otherwise spent that, even If I am discounting the price $20 ( with a justification) i'm still that much better off.

I went a little over board with the discount and will not do that deep of one again. I am learning. Anyway, I think a package deal could hopefully create the win - win here. I will talk with the organizer again.

I think It is on me as well Sam, It could of been done a little better. I did say award pictures when I was quoting but it slowly went to other things.

I am thinking about offering a cd from all of last season as well.

As for why sales have not been all that great.
The reason I come up with that are possibilities...
1.) I have tried some people out that have not been all that great and could not figure out how to get the printer to work or use the actions in photoshop that I set up.
2.) It seems like less people have been showing up toward the end of the season.
3.) Maybe they are tired of me or something.....
4.) One of the arenas they have been having it at has been pretty bad. We go to a different one and sales pick up a little.

Guess that is all I have for now....

Snowgirl · April 7, 2011

I did a couple of barrel racing shoots here a few years ago. I travelled 3 hours each way, shot for 6 hours, bought my own food etc., did some minor editing for viewing purposes only and barely sold enough to cover my gas and food.

So, I did a second event - a little closer to home, same results.

Then I figured out the problem - BR competitors don't spend any money. Period. At least, not around here. Everything is done on the cheap. My one exception was a family that actually appreciate decent work and are willing to pay for it - they represented about 75% of my total sales.

sara505 · April 9, 2011

Snowgirl wrote: »

I did a couple of barrel racing shoots here a few years ago. I travelled 3 hours each way, shot for 6 hours, bought my own food etc., did some minor editing for viewing purposes only and barely sold enough to cover my gas and food.

So, I did a second event - a little closer to home, same results.

Then I figured out the problem - BR competitors don't spend any money. Period. At least, not around here. Everything is done on the cheap. My one exception was a family that actually appreciate decent work and are willing to pay for it - they represented about 75% of my total sales.

I think this is true in general, everywhere. Everybody has a camera or a cell phone and is taking care of his or her own needs. Also, hate to say it, but standards are lower. People are now accustomed to low-res FB-type images and other cruddy venues, so we are more likely to settle for the D-I-Y portrait, or grab your neighbor/waiter/stranger on the street to take our pictures.

Not to mention, people don't have extra cash lying around these days.

Snowgirl · April 10, 2011

sara505 wrote: »

I think this is true in general, everywhere. Everybody has a camera or a cell phone and is taking care of his or her own needs. Also, hate to say it, but standards are lower. People are now accustomed to low-res FB-type images and other cruddy venues, so we are more likely to settle for the D-I-Y portrait, or grab your neighbor/waiter/stranger on the street to take our pictures.

Not to mention, people don't have extra cash lying around these days.

Some truth there, for sure. I do notice significant differences among the various competitive disciplines. Reiners spend money on good photos (because cheap cameras and short lenses can't capture those sliding stops or legs crossed in a fast spin). Dressage riders will also buy good shots as will people at major breed shows like Quarter Horse shows. But those competing in 'lower budget' events like cattle penning, western games and smaller breed shows don't. Period. We don't have a lot of jumper shows in my area but past experience says they will buy good shots for the same reason as the reindeers; without long, fast glass you can't get those bascule moments at the top of the jump.

Glort · April 10, 2011

My experience has been the older and more professional the competitors, the less you sell.

I covered the top Showjumping event in the country last year and sold Jack even though the shots were some of the best I have ever done thanks to being allowed to stand anywhere on the ring I wanted and the horses jumping 6ft or more in the air.

I find that young, amateur competitors are where I do well. Kids sell, adults don't. Women buy more than men.
One guy I spoke to a while back that does a lot of campdrafting and Rodeo said his onsite sales are mimimal but online is huge. He puts this down to the fact that big burly blokes don't want to be seen buying pics of themselves so they do it online where their mates won't know.

While it's great shooting all the action of the pro adult riders, for me the money has been in the 6 yo kid being led round the ring on a tiny pony stepping over a 4" pole lying on the ground.
As such, at the events I do, we prioritise the lowest grade rings and work our way up from there. Most of the time I don't even bother shooting the top level events because the riders just don't buy.

Snowgirl · April 11, 2011

Glort wrote: »

My experience has been the older and more professional the competitors, the less you sell.

I covered the top Showjumping event in the country last year and sold Jack even though the shots were some of the best I have ever done thanks to being allowed to stand anywhere on the ring I wanted and the horses jumping 6ft or more in the air.

I find that young, amateur competitors are where I do well. Kids sell, adults don't. Women buy more than men.
One guy I spoke to a while back that does a lot of campdrafting and Rodeo said his onsite sales are mimimal but online is huge. He puts this down to the fact that big burly blokes don't want to be seen buying pics of themselves so they do it online where their mates won't know.

While it's great shooting all the action of the pro adult riders, for me the money has been in the 6 yo kid being led round the ring on a tiny pony stepping over a 4" pole lying on the ground.
As such, at the events I do, we prioritise the lowest grade rings and work our way up from there. Most of the time I don't even bother shooting the top level events because the riders just don't buy.

Interesting perspective. I think you are right about that - along with my thing about certain disciplines being less prone to spend $ on photos. Cute kiddies on or with ponies doing just about anything draw the "ahhh" factor and sell better than some of the best athletic achievements.

Glort · April 11, 2011

When I did a stint with a school photography company, their statistics showed that the younger grades of kids sold the best and as they got older, the sales fell off. With the 2 final grades of highschool, they would only photograph them on a pre-paid basis where the lower years were all on spce/ approval and every kid was photographed.

One of the reasons they but the diminishing sales down to with the older kids was the parent had more photos of them and they had gone from being cute and loveable to PITA and the parents had gone from haing to have every photo taken to them being just another photo.

The rules a very wise and experienced event shooter gave me that I have found hold perfectly true for best event pics sales go along the lines of:

* Younger Kids sell better
* The higher the cost of admission the better ( cost of playing football to riding horses say)
* Taking Photos no one else can ( as in getting the shots parents/ amateurs can't)
* Level of play ( begginers sell better than advanced)
* Saturation ( Football 24 players in 90 min, Cheerleading 200+ an hour)

I have also found popularity of sports with the fans is a big factor. For instance with car racing, you may only have 30 drivers on the track, but there are 30 people around seriously photographing it, many/ most whom are happy to give their images away to the drivers/ promoters/ magazines and websites. Makes trying to SELL a pic for a decent price a very steep uphill battle.

Also some things like car racing while having the plus factor of the high cost of play rule, also have the complication of unlike Equine where the families overall tend to be more well heeled, the racers often have the seat out of their britches and priotise things for the car over pics of the car itself.

I have found the above guidelines to work pretty well and have been useful in acertaining a sports potential viability.
On this scale, Barrel racing would appear from what I know if it to be one of the less Ideal things to cover.

As far as what to do to improve sales, What i always try and do myself is get in teh tent when the people are looking at their pics on the screen and ask them questions about what they do and don't like about the images. This can get you a lot of feedback as to what the clients like to see and therefore will buy.

rwells · April 12, 2011

Barrel racing pics were my most profitable events, on an average basis.

Some things to consider:

I learned fast to only shoot "indoor" barrel races. ~ Why?

It's fairly dark inside, and parents don't have access/ability/equipment to set up monolights for good lighting
Shooting outside is almost always horrible light. (harsh shadows, can't see the riders face due to hat shadows, etc...) Even on the rare occasion that it's not, your pics won't have as much snap/punch to them.

What else?
As noted, as competitors get older, their existing photo collection also grows. Think about it; how many 8x10 pictures could you put around your house? So, in order to make a sale, your pic has to be of qualities that they probably don't have, or very few of.

Great lighting! This makes it happen
Great action! This will be mandatory the more seasoned the competitor
Great form! For experienced competitors, this is where the rubber meets the road!!!

You can have the best image that you've ever produced, but if the rider/competitor is not in good form, you're NOT going to make the sale.

~ Why would a seasoned competitor want to buy and/or display an image that not only reminds him/her of a less than stellar form, but anybody else that knows the sport and looks at the image. It's just not going to happen!!! ~

If your sales are sliding in the wrong direction, take an honest look at what I've posted here.

Hope that helps...

jbakerphoto · April 12, 2011

I dont know what to say to all of this. My experience has shown that it is more profitable for me to shoot barrel races. I have done a friesian stallion keuring and some breed shows. Granted I have only been in business for a year and a half.

Randy it is good to see a fellow Texan saying that barrel races are profitable. Yea I am using a monolight and on the other barrels I use a 580 ex and sunpack 383.

For some reason they have been going a little too far around the barrels here lately. It might have to do with end of year points and not wanting to mess with there standings due to no time. It sure doesnt make for good pictures though.

Glort · April 12, 2011

rwells wrote: »

~ Why would a seasoned competitor want to buy and/or display an image that not only reminds him/her of a less than stellar form, but anybody else that knows the sport and looks at the image. It's just not going to happen!!!

With the exception I have found if I get a great series of them coming off the horse.
Top seller every time!

Another thing I have found that kills sales is a bad event.
if the people aren't happy with the organisation or the way the event is run, sales suffer. For the outdoor events, if the grounds are in poor condition, also leads to them being unhappy and again you get more gripes than sales no matter waht the pics look like.

I have tried a few different types of events to see where the bux are.
Perhaps if the barrels aren't working, you could try giving something else a go. Perhaps sales would lift just through having more enthuasiam about something new?

jbakerphoto · April 12, 2011

I am actually shooting posed souvenir shots for my sons private school auction this weekend. This is my first time to do this type of thing but It will be interesting because I am going to be printing onsite and I am not really going to be using an assistant to print. I am just going to cut them off at a certain point and then start printing myself.

I am thinking about having a little fun with it as well and doing the nice shots and maybe having some boas and hats and a big suitcase full of fake money. Then on the text at the bottom "We brought the big buck to the xxx annual school Auction"

I am really hesitant to go find something else until I have a good assistant that I can count on to print and show up. I have definitely thought about it though.
Thanks for the help.

jbakerphoto · April 17, 2011

well looks like my barrel racing people like me again. I sold more then I sold last year for this race by quite abit and I was pretty estatic last year. Guess it is one of those things.

Sam · April 18, 2011

Randy,

If I understand your post you use studio strobes for barrel racing. I would have thought the flash would effect the horse?

Is using flash common with horses?

Sam

chrisjohnson · April 19, 2011

jbakerphoto wrote: »

I got a problem!

Basically I have been shooting a barrel racing org for about a year. I have been printing mostly onsite but lately I have not been doing too well money wise. This has led me to go through assistants like my son goes through gummy bears.

So about 2 months ago the organizer approached me and asked how much 55 8x10 prints would cost for the year end award pictures. I quoted them a little cheap thinking ok it will just be gravy (Meaning it will not affect my race photo sales) and they have been super nice to me over the past year. So I got the check from them and then they started talking about it being for either race photos or award pictures which is totally different from what I quoted them with her reasoning being that people might not want a picture of them self with just a headstall or they might not be able to make it to the event. Obviously the problem, (besides quoting too low and not doing it in writing) It could kill my onsite print sales for the race photos (and future races) and if I ditch onsite printing in the near future and goto onsite ordering I will have to charge for shipping. Ohh and tax man is coming as well so I need the money.

Any ideas on how to make this a win-win with out giving the money back and pissing them off because they have to get another award. I suppose one of these days I will figure out what the heck I am doing but until then enlighten me.

Take a big step back and figure out what service you are providing. When you start competing on price you are starting on a slippery slope downwards, and economizing on your assistants is a further unhealthy sign. When customers start talking about price then you know they view you as a commodity supplier and it is time to either move on or rethink your offer.

I got problems!

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