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ARGH! What would you do?
Scootersbabygirl
Registered Users Posts: 224 Major grins
Shot a wedding yesterday - it was in a field behind the bride (and her mother's) house. A few days before I surveyed the location and the bride's sister (we'll call her Meg so we don't get confused) said that HER sister-in-law would be attending the wedding, and also said: "she'll be taking photos too - just supplemental photos of everything, you know."
I immediately smelled trouble but I decided that I would try to be optimistic. I ran into another photographer a few weddings ago who was very nice and introduced himself to me, asked if it was okay to take photos/ect. He was extremely polite and it was a great experience, so I thought that maybe this would be too.
The entire thing was a disaster. First she never once approached me about shooting during the wedding - she never even said "boo" to me. The bride specifically stated that she wanted a lot of candid shots - every time I tried to take a candid shot the other woman was in my way or taking it from another angle and completely in the shot (trust me, I TRIED to move as much as possible but it wasn't working well!) At one point during formals I was taking a shot and my assistant was standing not too far from me ready to help if needed (as she is supposed to) and apparently the woman was behind her and goes, "Um, would you MOVE?" In a very snotty tone.
And then, as the evening progressed, the sister of the bride, Meg, started pulling people outside and setting up photo opportunities with her sister-in-law, which is generally something that I get snagged at weddings to do.
I was torn! My assistant didn't tell me about this until we were on the way home (she didn't want to bother me she said) and I didn't know how to approach the entire situation. On one hand I really wanted to tell the woman off, but it's also my business and I know I need to be very careful of my reputation. Any thoughts?
I immediately smelled trouble but I decided that I would try to be optimistic. I ran into another photographer a few weddings ago who was very nice and introduced himself to me, asked if it was okay to take photos/ect. He was extremely polite and it was a great experience, so I thought that maybe this would be too.
The entire thing was a disaster. First she never once approached me about shooting during the wedding - she never even said "boo" to me. The bride specifically stated that she wanted a lot of candid shots - every time I tried to take a candid shot the other woman was in my way or taking it from another angle and completely in the shot (trust me, I TRIED to move as much as possible but it wasn't working well!) At one point during formals I was taking a shot and my assistant was standing not too far from me ready to help if needed (as she is supposed to) and apparently the woman was behind her and goes, "Um, would you MOVE?" In a very snotty tone.
And then, as the evening progressed, the sister of the bride, Meg, started pulling people outside and setting up photo opportunities with her sister-in-law, which is generally something that I get snagged at weddings to do.
I was torn! My assistant didn't tell me about this until we were on the way home (she didn't want to bother me she said) and I didn't know how to approach the entire situation. On one hand I really wanted to tell the woman off, but it's also my business and I know I need to be very careful of my reputation. Any thoughts?
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When going through my contract, I explain to my brides that I have no intention of ever leaving a wedding, but it gives us a real easy and firm way to call someone off if we need to. I talk to video guys and hobbyists before the event and I just tell them that they can't set up a video camera in the center isle and they have to stay behind me when they are on the move. Never between me and a subject. Good video guys and 2nd shooters do this, but other people simply don't think about it and maybe some don't care.
This little paragraph sets a definate tone and says you are in control come picture time. It puts that in the brides head right from the start. I think this is my personal favorite disclaimer. If they are hiring you, then they are looking for you to be the guy/girl and they will want you to be able to do your job just as much as you want to be able to do your job. It is important that you get them sensitive to this potential issue by talking about it early on.
Bodies: Canon 5d mkII, 5d, 40d
Lenses: 24-70 f2.8L, 70-200 f4.0L, 135 f2L, 85 f1.8, 50 1.8, 100 f2.8 macro, Tamron 28-105 f2.8
Flash: 2x 580 exII, Canon ST-E2, 2x Pocket Wizard flexTT5, and some lower end studio strobes
I actually had a bride very recently send out a message to all the guests of her wedding, that they were welcome to bring a camera, but they were not allowed to be anywhere near the formal set ups, or during the service, and that they were to steer clear of me when it was time for the dances. She had purchased my disk package, and wanted to be sure that she didn't have a sea of cameras blocking my view, or in the background. They were basically allowed to bring out the cameras after I left!! lol
She put it to them like this... I'll be able to give you all a digital copy or your favorite shots from a professional photographer, which will turn out much nicer than any old point and shoot could ever handle!
Loved it. She was a super special bride. I think they built their whole day around me, or so it seemed!!!
Aaand since most of my bride's are facebook friends, I get to see how crummy their friend's and family's photos come out, (of my poses, even) so that really helps me feel not too bad about giving them the boot so I get my shot. No matter how nice their camera is, it doesn't make their photos better than mine... go figure.
But I love Mmatt's little clause for the contract. I may have to consider lifting parts of it.
1.) I discussed it with the client beforeand; I told them that I had a very laid back style. I'm not gonna be all up in their face during the ceremony; unless they specifically tell me that they want a freaking macro shot of their first kiss, I'm gonna stay at the back of the aisle for most of that stuff and just shoot telephoto. Also, I make it clear to the client that if someone start's getting in the way and "ruining" photos, I'm only going to ask that photographer ONCE to politely "take it down a notch", but after that I do not feel comfortable "warning" the B&G about walking off the job, or demanding that they tell a guest to "cut it out". I'll simply keep shooting, and so-and-so may or may not ruin a lot of photos. If you have the right personality, maybe you can be "jokingly aggressive" about it, and INTENTIONALLY do what you gotta do to get the shot, even if it means completely jumping in front of uncle bob, or pushing them out of the way, or at least calling them by name and asking them to scoot over or move out of your background, etc. That's probably a great option, if you have the personality to pull off such aggressiveness without getting thrown out lol...
2.) It was the bride and groom's decision to invite the guests with cameras, and to allow them to take pictures. If that guest is such a great photographer, it's not my fault if the guest's pictures turn out way better than mine! They should have just hired THEM in the first place. I really don't care, it was the client's decision to hire me. OR, the more likely case, if the guest's pictures suck, AND they ruin a bunch of my photos, again I still feel like I'm off the hook, because it was clearly discussed in advance, and written in the contract.
So, with all this in mind, yeah I do feel bad if the images I deliver to the client are tainted by an uncle bob. But at the same time, I don't blame myself, and I certainly wouldn't walk off the job. If I really LIKED the client, then I might put in a little extra effort and politely mention to the B&G that so-and-so should probably pay a little more attention (and respect) to the hired professional. But if the B&G don't seem to care, and they WANT to give time to that friend to do their own little private session or whatever, then I don't get too ruffled about it. I have my contract to back me up, and either way I'm always confident that my photos in general will still kick uncle bob's butt.
Personally, my contract states: (among other things)
* Guests with cameras / video cameras MUST STAY IN THEIR SEATS DURING THE CEREMONY. I'm just honest with the client- my style is laid back and incognito during the ceremony, so unless they WANT me to be right up in their face (and blocking everyone's view) during the first kiss etc, then I'll prefer to keep a low profile.
* Guests with cameras are NOT allowed to tag along during our private portrait sessions, so that my creativity, and the couple's attention, is not distracted.
=Matt=
My SmugMug Portfolio • My Astro-Landscape Photo Blog • Dgrin Weddings Forum
while thart might satisfy your sense of justice...think about what your actions. You have just ruined someones wedding over what is essentially a pushy guest who doesn't know anything about the contract. You also created very unsatisfied customers who will take action against you..whether it is small claims court and/or bad mouthing you at every turn. My advice would to be do your best to keep the offender in their place and keep shooting.
14-24 24-70 70-200mm (vr2)
85 and 50 1.4
45 PC and sb910 x2
http://www.danielkimphotography.com
If and when something, anything, comes up get with them, explain what's needed, and let them handle it.
If they can't or won't handle it, there may not be much you can do, except note it down and document it with your camera.
Sam
Heather or anyone, please feel free to use all or part of that disclaimer. that is why I posted it. My contract was fully reviewed/tweaked by a lawyer earlier this year if that matters to anyone.
Anyways, yeah. Don't ever leave a wedding unless you are in fear of being hurt or something, and no matter what DON'T EVER LOOSE YOUR COOL!!!. It just isn't worth it for justice or pride or whatever. I put that verbiage in my contract as a threat and that is all. If somebody won't cooperate, after you tell them your contract says you can pack up and leave for specifically doing what they are doing, they have some serious issues. What kind of person wants to ruin someones wedding day with this kind of crap! If you go through it with the b&g and get them sensitive to the possibility of it happening they will likely stop it themselves before it is a problem. If not you can use the contract verbiage in the field, or if nothing else after the fact, to say this is why I asked you to not allow any other photographers.
Matt
Bodies: Canon 5d mkII, 5d, 40d
Lenses: 24-70 f2.8L, 70-200 f4.0L, 135 f2L, 85 f1.8, 50 1.8, 100 f2.8 macro, Tamron 28-105 f2.8
Flash: 2x 580 exII, Canon ST-E2, 2x Pocket Wizard flexTT5, and some lower end studio strobes
http://www.klinhevelyngracephotography.com
Frankly, for the life of me, I don't know why you tolerated it. there is no way on this gods green earth she would have got away with it with me.
I also think it was somewhat unprofessional of you not to get her the hell out of your way.
The couple hired a professional to get the best shots possible. That has not happened because you let an amateur control the pics you did. You worked around her, not made her work around you which just seems unreal to me.
Can you imagine ANYONE else letting someone get in their way while they were doing a job? Try that on with a carpenter or plumber that comes to your home or the motor mechanic when he's servicing your vehicle.
If you can't paint a picture of that outcome you'd be the only one!
People crap on here about all sorts of legal garbage but I see a real potential problem here. If the bride were to complain about the pics that she didn't like them or the angles were weird or, that her SIL got better pics and produced them at small claims court, what would be your defense? That the SIL was in the way? Next question you would be asked is how many times did you ask her to get out the way and stop interfering with the job you were paid to do or whom did you tell about the problem you were having in order to get it fixed so you could take the standard of pics the B&G believed they would be getting?
And obviously they didn't get your best work, admit it. .
If I were a judge and you said no one, I tried to work around her, I'd take you to be....... well, ,,,,, not the sharpest tool in the shed shall we say?
I tell my couples I am the ONLY One to take a pic at the wedding, that is the rule. Do they understand? They say yes. I say, I'm happy to let people take whatever shots they want providing they don't get in my way, don't come to the formals and don't do anything to interfere with me doing the job they are hiring me for. If anyone breaks that rule, then I WILL enforce it and NO One takes pics or I leave. Then I ensure they understand that and get them to initial next to it on the paperwork.
Yep, might be tough but I'm in business to do a job the best way i can, not have it interfered with by amateurs that ALWAYS in the case like this woman, actually doing it for their own selfish reasons ( "Look how great I am, My pics are as good as the pros and mine are only $1 ea cause I have a coupon from wart blart".
When Someone does get in my way, I will ask them nicely not to interfere with the pic taking, they can do all they like when i'm finished and I'll even set a pic up for them but I'm a solo act and don't have people taking pics over my shoulder. Of course there is a big difference between mum and uncle grabbing a quick shot and the pests that want to follow you every where you go and take 3 shots to your one and generally be pains in the butt.
Unfortunately when I get a pest like this, they tend to get too close and I " accidentally" might step back and bump into them or step on their toes and I always seem to get right in their way. :thwak
If a second word does not get the required results, I will go to the best man, explain that this person is interfering with me doing the job for which I'm getting paid plenty and that I can't continue taking pics till that person has left the area. I physically put the camera on the ground , stand back and wait while the person leaves.
Never failed to put an end to it right there and then.
Oh yeah, the aggrieved might whinge and whine but so bloody what? anyone else there will quickly see that they are the only ones with a problem and understand why i don't wan the person over my shoulder all the time.
You mentioned your reputation, I'm lost for words at the fact you would worry about that in the context of someone getting annoyed at you for not letting them control the picture taking yet you don't seem to worry about your reputation of producing sub standard work. NOBODY is going to look at the pics and think " Oh, they aren't that great because the brides SIL got in the way so thats all right".
It will be, " geez, these are all odd angles and don't look that wonderful, the SIL's pics looked just as good or better. "
Sorry, but you really need to grow a pair and take control of the responsibilities that you have taken on.
The shooter runs the wedding. they are the only one that watches the clock to make sure that things run to plan in all the excitement and commotion and the couple will do about whatever you tell them. Stand back at a wedding and leave them to their own devices and see what a bun fight it turns into and how late they run.
Take control of the situation, whatever it is, and earn your money as a professional not just a button pusher.
I'm with you on this Sam. I actually HAVE documented other photographers in my way with my own camera.
What Glort said. Time to fix your contract, fix your interview, take charge...and cull the idiots...and those who look like they may be idiots. Act like you're in charge and you'll be treated like you are...simple as that. Be prepared to be what you are passing yourself off as...a professional or paid part time professional photographer...
Educate yourself like you'll live forever and live like you'll die tomorrow.
Ed
Holy moses!
Just what I needed to read in time for my first wedding.
GULP!
_________
Wow. Take Glort's comment with a grain of salt and don't be worried. You can handle it without that much confrontation.
I don't think there is really a need to be so aggressive about it. Most people are basically decent... and can be maneuvered with a gentle but firm word. I have been shooting for years and years and have never had to be that strong to get people to respect what I ask them to do and I am even working with super independent Alaskans.
Well perhaps it was.
If you are the hired shooter, take control of the picture taking and don't be dictated to those that are interfereing with your work. To do otherwise is unprofessional and comes down absoloutley to not serving the clients best interests.
best you start out with a professional attitude and have some ideas how to handle the situation when it DOES arise.
The situation WILL come up and you need to handle it like a pro and take control.
If you don't, your going to look very foolish being dictated to by someone else in your area of responsibility and most likely end up with the same feelings of disatisfaction and intimidation as the OP.
I have put many people in their place with this sort of thing and done it in a professional manner and NEVER had a problem or repercussion yet. In fact, what I have had repeatedly is thanks from the B&G because they didn't want these people taking over either but being family were in a delicate situation of how to handle them.
Many couples have told me about it before hand and I have said "Don't worry, I'll handle it. I'm not family and they will never see me again so I'll be the bad guy for you and you can keep the family harmony."
Never had any thing but gratitude for that.
Or you could handle things the way you always do...that is why I love shooting with you! We ALWAYS have a blast.
<Insert some profound quote here to try and seem like a deep thinker>
Michael Wachel Photography
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