Giving Deposit Back?

Scootersbabygirl · October 11, 2011

I just checked my answering machine and I have a message from a wedding client for next year. She said that she wants to go in a "different direction" and that she would like to discuss getting her $50 deposit back. This is the first time this has ever happened to me (and while I hope it will be the last I'm sure it will happen again at some point if my career is as long as I'd like it to be) and I'm not sure what to do - do I give her back the deposit or what? Have you ever had this happen to you before?

zoomer · October 11, 2011

Since it is that far out I would give her the money and wish her the best of luck.

rhommel · October 11, 2011

zoomer wrote: »

Since it is that far out I would give her the money and wish her the best of luck.

+1

unless it's stated in your contract that the deposit is non-refundable.

Sam · October 11, 2011

Yes, I think at this point like Zoomer said give the money back. I do however have one question, is $50.00 really a deposit?

I mean for a $50.00 deposit you are now obligated to keep that date for the client turning down any other bookings. Then after you have perhaps turned down other work they bail and all you have is a lousy $50.00.

Sam

Moogle Pepper · October 11, 2011

Sam wrote: »

Yes, I think at this point like Zoomer said give the money back. I do however have one question, is $50.00 really a deposit?

I mean for a $50.00 deposit you are now obligated to keep that date for the client turning down any other bookings. Then after you have perhaps turned down other work they bail and all you have is a lousy $50.00.

Sam

+1

I had a couple who broke up recently and wanted to cancel. While I didn't return the money back, since it was a reservation fee that states it will not be given back. I did give her a free lifestyle session.

I would say give the $50 dollars back and save yourself the hassle.

tenoverthenose · October 11, 2011

Regardless of what you decide to do, next time call it a retainer and make it much more valuable. Make it very clear that you will not return any amount paid if the couple decides to go in a different direction (or anything else). I guarantee you did much more than $50 worth of work.

zoomer · October 11, 2011

I have only had this happen to me once. However the retainer was $1800. and it was from the previous year so all taxes had been paid for that year. She booked a year early and then cancelled 1 month before the wedding.
I did not refund the money...however since the poor girl had paid, then her loser of a fiance had cheated on her and she was devastated....I did tell her I would hold the amount on credit for future photo shoots to be used at any time.
I felt so bad for her.

ziggy53 · October 11, 2011

A "deposit" by legal definition, is refundable. Since this wedding date is so far in the future, if you used the term "deposit" in either your contract or in discussions, you are pretty much obliged to refund the deposit.

The correct term, if you want to collect non-refundable money to hold a date, is "retainer". A retainer is, by legal definition, not necessarily refundable. I reinforce that with extra and redundant verbiage in the contract stating that the retainer is non-refundable. (When a wedding is more than 6 months away I still might be compelled to refund the retainer, if I really liked the couple and to keep good faith.)

Moogle Pepper · October 11, 2011

zoomer wrote: »

I have only had this happen to me once. However the retainer was $1800. and it was from the previous year so all taxes had been paid for that year. She booked a year early and then cancelled 1 month before the wedding.
I did not refund the money...however since the poor girl had paid, then her loser of a fiance had cheated on her and she was devastated....I did tell her I would hold the amount on credit for future photo shoots to be used at any time.
I felt so bad for her.

What happened with mine too.

smurfy · October 11, 2011

Increase your fee to hold the date, and call it a retainer, as others have said. Going in a different direction should cost that bride way more than 50 dollars. Think at least 30 to fifty percent of your total fee to reserve the date. She has so little to loose with such a tiny retainer.

Matthew Saville · October 13, 2011

+ 1 vote on the whole "$50.00 is WAY too low" thing...

If however that was a typo and you meant to type $500, or $5000, then please disregard this post... ;-)

Anyways it sounds like you're hoping to be a professional wedding photographer here, so let's think about the business side of it for a minute. The whole reason you can be willing to "reserve a date" is because you have to turn away other clients, and run the risk of the event (and therefore final payment) being canceled at a time when you simply CAN'T find other work. Say, 1 month before the wedding. Which is why a retainer is usually at least a thousand dollars or two, or maybe 50% if you're shooting above $5K for example.

The whole point of the retainer is so that, heaven forbid, you could afford to lose one or two final payments per year due to cancelled bookings. But if you lose a couple final payments and are left with $50 retainers, you might not be able to pay rent that month. :-(

The larger retainer will also deter clients from walking away in the first place. If the client is booking anything above $500-$1000, then $50 is just a drop in the bucket to them. If they find another photographer whose work they like, they're highly likely to just forget the $50...

Anyways, to answer your original question, yep I would give the retainer back if it were just $50. On one condition. Ask them, if they haven't already offered, to honestly tell you why they're going in a "different direction". You might learn something mission-critical about your business, or the client's perception of your business, and it will turn out to be the BEST $50 you ever "spent"!!!

=Matt=

mmmatt · October 13, 2011

yes... always get 50% (or more), and call it a retainer. $50 is a joke and doesn't look professional at all. I guarantee if you had a 50% retainer it would be very different.

I had it happen once where b&g got fed up with family trying to control their wedding so they chucked the whole thing and just did a courthouse wedding and an informal reception at a club that was supposed to be the spot of the rehearsal dinner. I kept the deposit and shot for a couple hours at each event and everyone was happy. I also had done an e-session for them. If I would have told them they need to pay the full balance they would have, but that wouldn't have felt right to me. They used their left over wedding money and took a trip to Europe and were far happier. At the reception thing there were fresh flowers and a DJ so I'm sure I wasn't the only one who got a partial job out of the deal!

Matt

mercphoto · October 13, 2011

I think the OP now realizes that a $50 deposit was a bad idea.

My wife and I had to put down 50% on our wedding, and when we went in a different direction what we did was put that money towards a really nice portrait package instead. Our photographer was great about it and actually liked the idea (the session was much less stressful than a wedding, and our portrait package ended up being more than our retainer fee as well anyway).

Give the $50 back. In the future make the retainer much higher. And if cancellations or changed plans come in consider offering the retainer be used on a portrait package instead.

Matthew Saville · October 14, 2011

mercphoto wrote: »

I think the OP now realizes that a $50 deposit was a bad idea. My wife and I had to put down 50% on our wedding, and when we went in a different direction what we did was put that money towards a really nice portrait package instead. Our photographer was great about it and actually liked the idea (the session was much less stressful than a wedding, and our portrait package ended up being more than our retainer fee as well anyway).

Give the $50 back. In the future make the retainer much higher. And if cancellations or changed plans come in consider offering the retainer be used on a portrait package instead.

That's another thing I often recommend to clients with smaller budgets, or to clients who are wary of spending so much on a retainer for a date so far in the future.

Basically, I tell them that if all they've got to spend on wedding photography is $500-1000, their best bet is a portrait session with the absolute best photographer they can find. As opposed to whatever local newbie just recently got the bright idea of going into business for the starting price of $750 or so. 99.9% of the time, $750 worth of portraits will look WAY more stunning than $750 worth of no-name or high-volume wedding coverage.

Just food for thought, for photographers in ANY price range. At least once, I've had a couple change their wedding date to a day I was already booked, thus nullifying their contract with me. Conveniently, my retainer is exactly the same as the price of an engagement session plus a "day-after" (TTD, whatever) session, plus a few prints / canvas thrown in... :-)

=Matt=

Scootersbabygirl · October 14, 2011

I appreciate all of the responses. I did refund her money and have already booked that spot (I had a potential client who wanted the spot and still hadn't found a photographer and was very excited to book me). I do, however, want to comment on the "you need to charge more" thing. I have only been in this business for 2 years. I am still building my business and want to do so slowly and with a huge focus on making sure that my clients get beautiful, affordable photography. I live in a very rural area - the average person around here makes around 25,000 or less. We already have a local photographer who charges $5,000 (starting) for a wedding and I have had a large number of my clients comment on the fact that it is far too expensive. While I have no problem with you guys charging whatever you need to charge, and while I will slowly raise my prices every year, my goal is to keep my prices as affordable as I can for as long as I possibly can. This year my clients have doubled, and every single one has commented on how affordable my prices are and how they appreciate the services I offer. But then again I feel like I shouldn't charge thousands of dollars when I've only been in business two years, ya know?

Art Scott · October 14, 2011

tenoverthenose wrote: »

Regardless of what you decide to do, next time call it a retainer and make it much more valuable. Make it very clear that you will not return any amount paid if the couple decides to go in a different direction (or anything else). I guarantee you did much more than $50 worth of work.

EXACTLY!! I do not know what you charge for weddings but my lowest retainer fee is $250. and that is for a ceremony only shoot....it is non funded unless there is a death of bride or groom, not refundable for change of direction...However I am not so callused that in this case I might be convinced to refund part depending on their attitude and reasons for the change. As mentioned above the "deposit / retainer" is to retain a date and it may be too late to fill that date.

Good Luck

Art Scott · October 14, 2011

Scootersbabygirl wrote: »

I appreciate all of the responses. I did refund her money and have already booked that spot (I had a potential client who wanted the spot and still hadn't found a photographer and was very excited to book me). I do, however, want to comment on the "you need to charge more" thing. I have only been in this business for 2 years. I am still building my business and want to do so slowly and with a huge focus on making sure that my clients get beautiful, affordable photography. I live in a very rural area - the average person around here makes around 25,000 or less. We already have a local photographer who charges $5,000 (starting) for a wedding and I have had a large number of my clients comment on the fact that it is far too expensive. While I have no problem with you guys charging whatever you need to charge, and while I will slowly raise my prices every year, my goal is to keep my prices as affordable as I can for as long as I possibly can. This year my clients have doubled, and every single one has commented on how affordable my prices are and how they appreciate the services I offer. But then again I feel like I shouldn't charge thousands of dollars when I've only been in business two years, ya know?

How do you compare to the other photog, in quality?? If your work is close in quality, you should be charging more.....my experiences have been I started shooting a complete 3 hr wedding for 350...50 deposit...got work, next yr...450 wedding 100 deposit...a little more work...next yr 1000 wedding 350 RETAINER....it took off 3 weddings / Sat, wedding FRi and Sunday.....

For the client is what they perceive what your worth.....and trying to be "affordable: equates to cheap to the client no matter how many compliments you get...compliments do not pay for cam repair or a new lens or insurance...want to keep your clientele coming and be seen as affordable run specials during the off season to grab next years weddings...do "lay away: payment plans...no finance charges...but charge no less than1500/ wedding and get your retain to no less than 300...the reason is at 1500/ wedding it will still take close to 5 wedding to buy a new camera (I working off mid range PROSUMER cams like my Nikon D300 coming in at around 1700 new)...As a photrog you need to have cams serviced and cleaned every few years and that costs money...so you also need a minimum of 2 bodies, plus while one if off being serviced you need to rent a back up....this is just a few of the reasons you need to charge more....but offer services that the other doesn't.....most do not offer a monthly payment (lay away if you will), I do and it helps those that could not afford me to have me at their once in a life time day preserving it for future generations......

you are a PRO and should charge PRO prices...remember you need to be able to replace and repair equipment also...the retainer needs to be high enuff that people do not casually ask for it back and it needs to be in your contract that it is non-refundable, because a lot of people will place a deposit and go hunting to find a cheaper price.....this happened to me a lot aover 20 yrs ago...I changed my contract wording from deposit to retainer and it stopped....the suggestion came from a smalls claims judge that ruled against me for having a non refundable deposit.....which he said was a contradiction of terms...that deposit implied it would be returned or refunded......

Sorry this was so long but I have been where you are at - 30 yrs ago and if it had not been for the small claims judge and another world reknown Photog (Peter Gowland- RIP) I shutter to think how long it would have taken me to get to a point of actually making enuff money to afford the essentials: business insurance, repair and replacing cams or lenses and such....

Good Luck to You.
Namaste.

FlyNavy · October 14, 2011

Art, How much do get for your weddings?

http://www.artscottfotografie.com/Portfolio/Wedding/17361677_mDr5W9#50647109_7DvXh

Damn!!!!! I'm moving to Wichita.

FlyNavy · October 14, 2011

With pics like those?

mercphoto · October 14, 2011

I certainly understand pricing yourself to the incomes and means of your customer base. But you also need to make sure you make enough to actually run a real business. Equipment repairs, equipment upgrades, back-up bodies and flashes, etc.

Glort · October 14, 2011

Scootersbabygirl wrote: »

While I have no problem with you guys charging whatever you need to charge, and while I will slowly raise my prices every year, my goal is to keep my prices as affordable as I can for as long as I possibly can. This year my clients have doubled, and every single one has commented on how affordable my prices are and how they appreciate the services I offer.

If you want to do Charity work, do charity work.
If you want to run a business, then do that and don't confuse it with charity work.

You don't have to charge what the other guy does and you are free to charge what you like but your approach and mentality is all wrong. It sounds to me like your priority is to be liked rather than make money.

If your customers are telling you how affordable you are, that menas you are below their pricing expectations. it's a mistake to think that they won't like or appreciate your work if it's not cheap, in fact exactly the opposite is true. What you will also find in time and I'm sure many would agree with me here is that the cheaper the packages/ clients you deal with, the more problems and time you'll have to spend with them.

Forget about increasing prices slowly, whats the pint of that for one off sales like weddings? they are only interested in what you will be charging them not what people paid last year or what they will pay next year. Your doing that for you, it makes no business sense whatso ever.
And increasing packages $25 a year and apologising for it??? C'mon!
If people cant afford to pay a decent price, they can't afford it the same as I can't afford a ferrarri so I have to do without. the fact is though people do buy what they want and if they want you they WILL get the money.

You say you are in a low income area but the other guy charges %K. Has he been in business a long time? does he have enough customers now? If so, then that should tell you all you need to know about what people in your area can afford and that you could double your package prices tonight and still be cheap and affordable.

But then again I feel like I shouldn't charge thousands of dollars when I've only been in business two years, ya know?

Well you are either good enough to be doing the work or your not.
If you are good enough to be responsible for peoples life long memories you are good enough to charge a dencet amount for it. There's now exxcuses. You don't have to charge thousands but do at least look like a professional and don't make a mockery of yourself and the profession.
And I'm sorry to say that your business in not a business at all. It's a charity for your clients.

Sorry, but $1.99 for an 8x10 is a JOKE and just undermines the whole industry. Geez, my lab charges me more than that for a print! If you seriously think that's all your work is worth, stop taking any money for your work at all and stick to happy snaps for yourself.
No wonder your clients think your affordable, your loosing money at that rate overall. You must be working for $5 an hour, maybe less when equipment costs etc are figured in.

Sorry to be direct but I think you need a bit of a reality check and a few straight out sugestions to get you realising your mistakes. And they are mistakes.

I strongly suggest you put down the photography books and seriously hit the businees books and make the realisation that you don't have to loose money in order for clients to book you or like you or your work.

Working at a loss or for nothing will get old and the last thing you want is to realise your committed to working the next 12 months for nothing.

Danspage · October 18, 2011

Scootersbabygirl wrote: »

I just checked my answering machine and I have a message from a wedding client for next year. She said that she wants to go in a "different direction" and that she would like to discuss getting her $50 deposit back. This is the first time this has ever happened to me (and while I hope it will be the last I'm sure it will happen again at some point if my career is as long as I'd like it to be) and I'm not sure what to do - do I give her back the deposit or what? Have you ever had this happen to you before?

I have looked at your website and from what little you have in weddings it is very nice. What concerns me is you do not have one full wedding set to look at, from start to Finish.

If you can produce a full wedding, full of great photos like the ones in your example then you should charge alot more. $1000 is not much to charge for-8hrs for the wedding 12hrs of post, ,prep, consult and uploads and a website. 1000/18hrs=55.50 per hr... If you drop one flash you are out $400.00, lens $1000.00 your camera $$$$$.

Enjoy..

Giving Deposit Back?

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