D800 vs D800E

13

Comments

  • T. BombadilT. Bombadil Major grins Posts: 290Registered Users Major grins
    edited February 19, 2012
    Here is a hands-on review I found online covering both cameras
    http://www.ephotozine.com/article/nikon-d800-d800e-digital-slr-hands-on-review-18420

    This one has some photos of the inside workings and how it's laid out.
    http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d800/nikon-d800A.HTM

    Thanks. Good reading.
    Bruce

    Chooka chooka hoo la ley
    Looka looka koo la ley
  • ajanaajana Beginner grinner Posts: 2Registered Users Beginner grinner
    edited February 22, 2012
    moire pattern removed
    Icebear wrote: »
    And if you've never run into ugly moire in your real world, have a look at the chair across the table. Fix that in post. I couldn't.

    194934868_BZ8bu-X2-1.jpg

    Edit: Sorry. For some reason there's no Exif in the image. Anyway, this was shot about six years ago with a D70.

    I have removed the moire pattern in 3 mins
  • IcebearIcebear Major grins Posts: 4,015Registered Users Major grins
    edited February 22, 2012
    ajana wrote: »
    I have removed the moire pattern in 3 mins

    Pretty good! I think people would like to know how you accomplished that. Would your technique hold up if this old image were printed at, say, 8x10. I sure don't think I could have done what you did six years ago. Not in three minutes, for sure. I remember trying and not being at all happy with my results.
    John :
    Natural selection is responsible for every living thing that exists.
    D3s, D500, D5300, and way more glass than the wife knows about.
  • T. BombadilT. Bombadil Major grins Posts: 290Registered Users Major grins
    edited February 22, 2012
    Ok, you've rented the D3s and your looking for a sports camera in the form of the D800? There is little doubt that the D4 will trump the D3s, but the D3s will maintain frame rate, give the ISO range you need, 300k shutter life, hellish battery life, AF performance only bested by the D4 (and possibly the D800 series).

    I don't know what the D3s will sell for when the D4 ships, but I think is gives all your looking for and is a known performer. I know its good enough I'm staying with it in spite of the new toys hitting the market.

    It has all I'm looking for except enough pixels, 3d face-tracking auto-focus, and a discrete appearance. I have ruled it out (after using it for more than one event). Every camera has compromises - I'm just sifting through which characteristics are most important to me. Frames per second are not important to me (though I might find 15 or 20 useful - I don't know because I've never had that). 12MP is not enough for me (36 is certainly more than I would have requested).
    I just have a feeling the no-filter version will be a specialty camera in the end.

    You may well be right. Thanks for the thoughts.
    Bruce

    Chooka chooka hoo la ley
    Looka looka koo la ley
  • T. BombadilT. Bombadil Major grins Posts: 290Registered Users Major grins
    edited February 22, 2012
    ajana wrote: »
    I have removed the moire pattern in 3 mins

    Impressive! Nice, clean, and convincing - at least as sized currently. I'm sure we would all like to hear how you did that so quickly.
    Bruce

    Chooka chooka hoo la ley
    Looka looka koo la ley
  • ajanaajana Beginner grinner Posts: 2Registered Users Beginner grinner
    edited February 22, 2012
    Impressive! Nice, clean, and convincing - at least as sized currently. I'm sure we would all like to hear how you did that so quickly.

    I used Lightroom 4 & photoshop to do this. Here are the steps :

    1. The new Light Room 4 has the option to remove color moire under adjustment brush. I used that to take off the color. Just brush the section and slide the slider. This is really a simple task and anyone with basic or no knowledge could do it. Nikon is also going to include in NX bundled with D800E, so in case you dont have LR4 you could do that in NX also.

    2. Then opened the image in Photoshop to remove the dark pattern. I applied a blur filter with 2 pixel radius & 15 threshold to the selected section only to smooth out the details. Since the Image was very small I had to apply 2 pixel radius but for D800E 1 pixel should be enough. I also recommend to upscale the image for D800E then apply the blur filter then down sample the image. This will make the pixel size smaller when applying the blur filter.

    Hope this helps. I am also doing lot of research on D800E and looks like 36MP will automatically reduce moire effect and stepping down the f to f/11 will cause diffraction which will also reduce the moire effect. On top of this we have options to remove it in post processing.
  • perronefordperroneford Major grins Posts: 550Registered Users Major grins
    edited February 22, 2012
    ajana wrote: »
    Hope this helps. I am also doing lot of research on D800E and looks like 36MP will automatically reduce moire effect and stepping down the f to f/11 will cause diffraction which will also reduce the moire effect. On top of this we have options to remove it in post processing.

    All true. But when I do a fashion shoot and run off 500-1000 images, I'd rather not spend half a day finding the ones with Moire, and then trying to fix them. All while working on a deadline.

    While you might have more time to work on something once the finals are selected, I would not want to have client review on set, or post-shoot and have 3 or 4 dozen show up with Moire. I had to go through this recently with my D7000 on a shoot for a client, and it was NOT fun.
  • FearNothing321FearNothing321 Major grins Posts: 123Registered Users Major grins
    edited February 22, 2012
    Nikon D800, Pentax K1000

    You don't take a photograph, you make it. ~Ansel Adams

    Blue Moon Originals
  • ThatCanonGuyThatCanonGuy Artist/Entrepreneur/Nomad Posts: 1,778Registered Users Major grins
    edited February 22, 2012
    If you stop down to where diffraction sets in, that kind of takes away the E's sharpness advantage.

    Those high ISO samples are amazing. I think it may be Nikon's turn to take sales away from the 5DIII.
  • T. BombadilT. Bombadil Major grins Posts: 290Registered Users Major grins
    edited February 22, 2012

    Appreciate you pointing these out. I wonder though . . . don't they seem a little suspect?

    I would have thought that "100%" crops from D700 and D800 would show quite different field of view (100% means 1:1 image pixel to screen pixel, yes? or maybe i just don't know what's what.)
    Bruce

    Chooka chooka hoo la ley
    Looka looka koo la ley
  • Robin CasadyRobin Casady Big grins Posts: 59Registered Users Big grins
    edited February 25, 2012
    Some thoughts on D800 vs. D800E:

    I've pre-ordered the D800E, but my love is landscapes and macros. I rarely shoot people. If I were primarily shooting sports, people, or urban settings I would choose the D800.

    Someone came up with a good statement about the choice. If you have to ask, you are probably better off with the D800.

    I've tried a few moiré reduction techniques on sample images posted on the web. Most were from a D70 or a Lieca. None could be completely fixed. The techniques I used were the Lightroom 4 beta adjustment brush, and methods described on these links:

    Removing Moiré Effectively

    A New Way to Remove Moire

    Moiré Removal in Photoshop

    Because of the higher MP count, the D800E should have less incidence of moiré than the Leica. However, when it shows up, the fixed area will be of lower quality than it would be than an D800 image—assuming the moiré did not show up in the D800 image. There is no guarantee that the D800 will be moiré free.

    Regarding sharpening an D800 image to match an D800E image, I doubt it can be done. How subtle the difference will be is difficult to evaluate with so few sample images available.

    I think Nikon would not have bothered making two models if there weren't valid reasons for each. If moiré were extremely rare, or you could completely repair it with ease, there would be no point in making an D800. On the other hand, the only reason to make the D800E is because it must produce a level of image quality that the D800 cannot match.

    The linear resolution of the D800/E is only a 70% increase over the D700. A 300 dpi print from a D800 would be about 16x24". If I wasn't interested in printing large, I would stick with the D700.
  • T. BombadilT. Bombadil Major grins Posts: 290Registered Users Major grins
    edited February 25, 2012
    ajana wrote: »
    Hope this helps. I am also doing lot of research on D800E and looks like 36MP will automatically reduce moire effect and stepping down the f to f/11 will cause diffraction which will also reduce the moire effect. On top of this we have options to remove it in post processing.

    It does help. Thanks for the explanation.
    Bruce

    Chooka chooka hoo la ley
    Looka looka koo la ley
  • T. BombadilT. Bombadil Major grins Posts: 290Registered Users Major grins
    edited February 25, 2012
    Someone came up with a good statement about the choice. If you have to ask, you are probably better off with the D800.

    I understand the notion that "if you have to ask . . . " (and have also seen it mentioned on various discussion threads). The problem with that line of thinking is that it is dismissive of the photographer who wants to learn about the differences and grow in their picture making (perhaps in a direction favored by the 800E). It pre-supposes a lot about the buyer. So, while I'm not criticizing you for using that phrase, I have to say that it is not relevant to my search.
    I've tried a few moiré reduction techniques on sample images posted on the web. Most were from a D70 or a Lieca. None could be completely fixed. The techniques I used were the Lightroom 4 beta adjustment brush, and methods described on these links:

    Was that a modified D70, or did you experience moire with a stock D70?
    I think Nikon would not have bothered making two models if there weren't valid reasons for each. If moiré were extremely rare, or you could completely repair it with ease, there would be no point in making an D800. On the other hand, the only reason to make the D800E is because it must produce a level of image quality that the D800 cannot match.

    Agreed. There must be some difference - so someone who will only own one has a decision to make. The D800 is an easy answer, as it (presumably) will exhibit moire approx. as often as other Nikons with AA filtering. The buyer who would sometimes like the 800E has to decide whether to risk the moire hassle.

    Thank you for your thoughts and the helpful links.
    Bruce

    Chooka chooka hoo la ley
    Looka looka koo la ley
  • Matthew SavilleMatthew Saville Wedding Photographer Posts: 3,394Super Moderators Major grins
    edited February 26, 2012
    I understand the notion that "if you have to ask . . . " (and have also seen it mentioned on various discussion threads). The problem with that line of thinking is that it is dismissive of the photographer who wants to learn about the differences and grow in their picture making (perhaps in a direction favored by the 800E). It pre-supposes a lot about the buyer. So, while I'm not criticizing you for using that phrase, I have to say that it is not relevant to my search...

    I understand your reasoning behind that, however I think it still applies. Asking is better than NOT asking, of course, and obviously you'll get tons of good answers that will really enlighten any potential buyer. However, it is still a very risky purchase and the point is that "if you have to ask", ...there's a very good chance that the right answer IS INDEED to play it safe.

    Of course there's a chance that even before you've read up on the subject, the D800E is in fact right for you. We're not trying to be dismissive, just pointing out that likelihood is in favor of the regular D800.

    =Matt=
    My first thought is always of light.” – Galen Rowell
    My SmugMug PortfolioMy Astro-Landscape Photo BlogModerator of the Dgrin Weddings Forum
  • T. BombadilT. Bombadil Major grins Posts: 290Registered Users Major grins
    edited February 26, 2012
    I understand your reasoning behind that, however I think it still applies. Asking is better than NOT asking, of course, and obviously you'll get tons of good answers that will really enlighten any potential buyer. However, it is still a very risky purchase and the point is that "if you have to ask", ...there's a very good chance that the right answer IS INDEED to play it safe.

    Of course there's a chance that even before you've read up on the subject, the D800E is in fact right for you. We're not trying to be dismissive, just pointing out that likelihood is in favor of the regular D800.

    =Matt=

    hmmm. headscratch.gif But the likelihood of which is the better choice only helps you guys bet with each other on which camera will turn out to be the best for me. It doesn't help me know what I want. (Though I appreciate the good will and intentions inherent in what you are saying).

    And actually, I'm not feeling that this is a risky decision. Either version will be a nice camera. Unless I buy both versions (which i won't do), whichever I acquire will not always be the perfect solution - so the game is to identify which is best for my (admittedly oddball) purposes. I'm not a 'play it safe' sort of buyer (at least not with hobby purchases where I have time to ponder the alternatives).
    Bruce

    Chooka chooka hoo la ley
    Looka looka koo la ley
  • Stuart-MStuart-M Wedding Photographer Posts: 157Registered Users Major grins
    edited February 26, 2012
    Anybody considering purchasing either of these? Which way are you leaning?

    I'm ready to buy a new camera. My primary interest is sports photography (for fun, not pro), but I can not rationalize the cost of a D4 (and would be a little conflicted about the size even if the cost were lower) - though I might rent one from time to time, so what I buy need not be the ultimate sports machine.

    I think I need to move to full frame - in part because I need a bigger brighter viewfinder to mitigate failing eyesight (am I correct in thinking the 100% full frame 0.7x D800 viewfinder will be bigger and brighter than the DX (97%?) of D300/400?). In fact, I'm willing to give up frames per second for better viewfinder experience. I realize that I am giving up "reach" in the transition to FX (still wrestling with that. a TC would put upward pressure on my desired ISO capability and reduce viewfinder brightness).

    My current camera is a D80, so there is no question that any new camera will be a step up. The aspects I would most like to improve are cleaner images at high ISO and more than 12 megapixels (with my 10MP D80 I have not been happy with anything above ISO 640. When renting D3 and D3s I was happy with ISO as high as 6400 - if I can get to 3200 with a new camera I will be happy).

    I shoot almost exclusively in raw, not afraid to spend time on an image (could use some lessons, but that is a different issue). My computer is more than ready to handle increased file size. So no worries there.

    So I think the question is whether to buy 800 or 800E. I'm leaning toward the 800E (pre-ordered it, in fact).

    Are the potential problems with moire something only a studio pro can mitigate, or can a nerdy enthusiast learn to manage it?

    I'm grateful to hear what others are thinking.

    Firstly, you obviously want the D800e. Several people (far more qualified than I) have explained that the D700 is probably a better choice for sports photography, but lets be honest, you're not paying your rent and food bills with it. If you think the D800e is what you want, there's really no harm in it.
  • T. BombadilT. Bombadil Major grins Posts: 290Registered Users Major grins
    edited February 26, 2012
    Stuart-M wrote: »
    Firstly, you obviously want the D800e. Several people (far more qualified than I) have explained that the D700 is probably a better choice for sports photography, but lets be honest, you're not paying your rent and food bills with it. If you think the D800e is what you want, there's really no harm in it.

    "Firstly, you obviously want the D800e." I think so also, that is why I ordered one.

    For a variety of reasons, I definitely want a D800 or a D800E rather than a D700 or some alternative. I'm completely on-board with the notion that there are many cameras better suited to sports photography. This thread was never intended as a question about that, and I have tried to be clear - I don't want advice about other camera models (as much as I _do_ appreciate the friendly impulses of DGrinners).

    The issue is 800 or 800E. Here again, it may be true that most sports photographers, if forced to choose an 800 or 800E (even though they would prefer something else), would choose the 800. But what I want to understand is the why/when/how bad/how often trade-offs - because after all, I don't shoot sports exclusively, the sports I shoot are outdoors (with natural surroundings in a very rural setting).

    What if I put the question this way: "800 or 800E for outdoor photography (not architecture but sometimes with people in it) and macro use?

    I just want a deeper understanding than "800E for landscape and studio, 800 for all else".

    I thought that mentioning my current camera and that I have used essentially all other models would indicate I can work with compromised solutions and know what other models can do. That should get us away from the "which model" question so we could have a discussion about AA filtered vs. non AA filtered - which is what interests me.
    Bruce

    Chooka chooka hoo la ley
    Looka looka koo la ley
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Still learnin'still lovin Posts: 18,655Super Moderators moderator
    edited February 26, 2012
    Some additional non-AA information:

    High contrast boundaries of "any" object may show visible "aliasing or "stairstepping", exaggerated by sharpening.

    This effect is especially noticeable on power and phone lines in the scene.

    While I haven't seen it mentioned, I suspect that if you use Live View, available on many digital cameras, you may be able to see the moiré and aliasing issues as they occur. It may be possible to "de-focus" ever-so-slightly to diminish the problem.

    Tilting the camera can also change the nature of the aliasing problems, in some cases eliminating the problem altogether.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • T. BombadilT. Bombadil Major grins Posts: 290Registered Users Major grins
    edited February 26, 2012
    ziggy53 wrote: »
    While I haven't seen it mentioned, I suspect that if you use Live View, available on many digital cameras, you may be able to see the moiré and aliasing issues as they occur. It may be possible to "de-focus" ever-so-slightly to diminish the problem.

    {second attempt at a reply. servers are fidgety.}

    Do you think it would be necessary to "zoom in" on the lcd to discern this?

    Thom Hogan (I think it was Thom) said that assigning a function button to "full lcd zoom" would be useful for checking for moire. The number of pixels involved makes perusing the whole image at 100% too tedious - but most of my shots where moire is a risk involve a person surrounded by less crisply focused stuff (other people, and nature) so that would be a workable way to identify moire.
    Bruce

    Chooka chooka hoo la ley
    Looka looka koo la ley
  • ziggy53ziggy53 Still learnin'still lovin Posts: 18,655Super Moderators moderator
    edited February 26, 2012
    {second attempt at a reply. servers are fidgety.}

    Do you think it would be necessary to "zoom in" on the lcd to discern this?

    Thom Hogan (I think it was Thom) said that assigning a function button to "full lcd zoom" would be useful for checking for moire. The number of pixels involved makes perusing the whole image at 100% too tedious - but most of my shots where moire is a risk involve a person surrounded by less crisply focused stuff (other people, and nature) so that would be a workable way to identify moire.

    Yes, you'd have to view the image at 100 percent. I'm not certain that you could see the moiré and aliasing issues as the same as a printed image, but it would probably be helpful.
    ziggy53
    Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
  • ncengineerncengineer Beginner grinner Posts: 1Registered Users Beginner grinner
    edited February 27, 2012
    Suggest you check out The article The Naked Sensor at Luminous Landscape http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/the_naked_sensor.shtml and the forum responses http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=62537.0
    to get a range of views about the effects of eliminating the AA filter.
  • T. BombadilT. Bombadil Major grins Posts: 290Registered Users Major grins
    edited February 28, 2012
    Thanks. A good read, with extensive debate in the forum.
    ncengineer wrote: »
    Suggest you check out The article The Naked Sensor at Luminous Landscape http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/the_naked_sensor.shtml and the forum responses http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=62537.0
    to get a range of views about the effects of eliminating the AA filter.
    Bruce

    Chooka chooka hoo la ley
    Looka looka koo la ley
  • ThatCanonGuyThatCanonGuy Artist/Entrepreneur/Nomad Posts: 1,778Registered Users Major grins
    edited March 6, 2012
    LR4 has "moire local adjustment controls" according to a Nikon Rumors tweet.
  • MLangtonMLangton Another Wannabe Posts: 140Registered Users Major grins
    edited March 18, 2012
    Decisions... Decisions...

    These things hit the street in two more days. Anyone else getting excited? clap.gif

    As tempted as I am to pre-order the D800E, I am going to hold off and wait for a few live "real person" reviews. As someone that shoots 80% inanimate objects, I am very interested. At the same time, I hope to break into more people stuff in the future.

    So, are we talking moire on 80% of the shots, or less than 10%. Then on WHICH shots... Anyone else getting a headache just thinking about all of this???

    I just hope Nikon builds enough of BOTH models, so that if I miss the first feeding frenzy, it won't be MONTHS before I can get a new one... I feel like my waiting could hurt as much as paying off. Again, decisions... decisions...

    I'm sooo excited, I just pulled the trigger on my dream 70-200mm VRII. I can't wait to put that on the D800(E). Holy crap... If I ever really get good with this stuff, it will be scary. thumb.gif
    More photo, less shop.

    http://mlangton.smugmug.com
  • FearNothing321FearNothing321 Major grins Posts: 123Registered Users Major grins
    edited March 18, 2012
    MLangton wrote: »
    Decisions... Decisions...

    These things hit the street in two more days. Anyone else getting excited? clap.gif

    As tempted as I am to pre-order the D800E, I am going to hold off and wait for a few live "real person" reviews. As someone that shoots 80% inanimate objects, I am very interested. At the same time, I hope to break into more people stuff in the future.

    So, are we talking moire on 80% of the shots, or less than 10%. Then on WHICH shots... Anyone else getting a headache just thinking about all of this???

    I just hope Nikon builds enough of BOTH models, so that if I miss the first feeding frenzy, it won't be MONTHS before I can get a new one... I feel like my waiting could hurt as much as paying off. Again, decisions... decisions...

    I'm sooo excited, I just pulled the trigger on my dream 70-200mm VRII. I can't wait to put that on the D800(E). Holy crap... If I ever really get good with this stuff, it will be scary. thumb.gif

    I don't know if this is any use to you but B & H did a blog post describing the differences between D800 and the D800E

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/indepth/photography/hands-reviews/discerning-differences-between-nikon-d800-and-d800e

    Personally, I'm thinking about picking up a D800
    Nikon D800, Pentax K1000

    You don't take a photograph, you make it. ~Ansel Adams

    Blue Moon Originals
  • MLangtonMLangton Another Wannabe Posts: 140Registered Users Major grins
    edited March 19, 2012
    Yes.., I've been reading all the reviews over and over for a few weeks.

    With no hands on experience to base my decision on as the 800s have not been released yet, the straight 800 seems the logical choice.

    I just can't help but wonder if the "E" will be that much better, or that much worse.

    I realize that 99% of the general public will not be able to notice the difference in resolution. Sadly, I am part of that 1% that will. I tend to look at pics 100% on the monitor. No reason... I just always have.
    More photo, less shop.

    http://mlangton.smugmug.com
  • Stuart-MStuart-M Wedding Photographer Posts: 157Registered Users Major grins
    edited March 19, 2012
    MLangton wrote: »
    Yes.., I've been reading all the reviews over and over for a few weeks.

    With no hands on experience to base my decision on as the 800s have not been released yet, the straight 800 seems the logical choice.

    I just can't help but wonder if the "E" will be that much better, or that much worse.

    I realize that 99% of the general public will not be able to notice the difference in resolution. Sadly, I am part of that 1% that will. I tend to look at pics 100% on the monitor. No reason... I just always have.

    My thoughts are, if photography is a hobby, and sharpness is the number 1 thing you look for in a photo, the D800e is the choice for you. If, on the other hand, photography is your business, and moire could potentially ruin a paying job, go for the D800, or maybe the 5D3.
  • MLangtonMLangton Another Wannabe Posts: 140Registered Users Major grins
    edited March 21, 2012
    Stuart-M wrote: »
    My thoughts are, if photography is a hobby, and sharpness is the number 1 thing you look for in a photo, the D800e is the choice for you. If, on the other hand, photography is your business, and moire could potentially ruin a paying job, go for the D800, or maybe the 5D3.

    Agreed. I am just a wanna-be now, but hope this is the year to break into the $$$. As much as I'd like the "E", since I can only afford one, I just back ordered the straight 800. Thanks for the information everyone.

    Lets hope it comes in soon.
    More photo, less shop.

    http://mlangton.smugmug.com
  • perronefordperroneford Major grins Posts: 550Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 2, 2012
    Well, this thread has died off. I wonder how all the people who got their D800s are doing. I can certainly say that I haven't used my D3s for a sports shoot since the D800 came in. I've shot several sports assignments, some birding, a bikini contest, and have a portrait session set up Sunday. I've got just over 2500 frames through the D800 and so far I am THRILLED with it.
  • T. BombadilT. Bombadil Major grins Posts: 290Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 2, 2012
    Well, this thread has died off. I wonder how all the people who got their D800s are doing. I can certainly say that I haven't used my D3s for a sports shoot since the D800 came in. I've shot several sports assignments, some birding, a bikini contest, and have a portrait session set up Sunday. I've got just over 2500 frames through the D800 and so far I am THRILLED with it.

    Congratulations on getting one already.
    Bruce

    Chooka chooka hoo la ley
    Looka looka koo la ley
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