Camera in Position to Flash?

lifeinfocus · February 23, 2012

I am getting prepared to take some indoor portraits. Not experienced in using remote flashes. I have a question about positioning two flashes using an umbrella and a softbox.

Where ideally is the camera positioned in relation to the flashes - in front of, in parallel or behind? I am sure it makes a difference and I have experimented with it, but I would like to hear what experienced photogs think and the pros and cons of each.

Thanks much in advance
Phil

Nikolai · February 23, 2012

Phil,
you've opened a can of worms :-)

rofl
Two lights give you a lot of possibilities. The outcome differs considerably. Moreover, lot of scenarios work well in some set of conditions and not so well in others (male vs female, casual vs business vs glamour..., headshot vs upper body vs full height, sitting vs standing vs ...)

Just to give you a few basic ones you can start with:
1) lights in line with the camera, one above the subject in front of the subject (main - batterfly), another behind the subject high above looking down (hair)
2) very similar, but the lights line rotated hrisontally ~45 degrees relative to the camera-subject line, back light is lowered to the front light height and is similar in angle (diagonal setup, aka cross-fire)
3) for very dynamic, artistic, 3D look: both lights are behind the subject on head's level or slightly above, looking at the subject at ~45 degrees angle.
4) for high fashion look (typical use - female headshot) - clamshell: both lights in front of the subject on the camera axis, one above, one below. Or you can use white/silver reflector for the lower one and use the 2d light as hair (see #1)

As I have said, this is just scratching the surface...

Good luck, hope this helps!

lifeinfocus · February 23, 2012

Nikolai wrote: »

Phil,
you've opened a can of worms :-) rofl
Two lights give you a lot of possibilities. The outcome differs considerably. Moreover, lot of scenarios work well in some set of conditions and not so well in others (male vs female, casual vs business vs glamour..., headshot vs upper body vs full height, sitting vs standing vs ...)

Just to give you a few basic ones you can start with:
1) lights in line with the camera, one above the subject in front of the subject (main - batterfly), another behind the subject high above looking down (hair)
2) very similar, but the lights line rotated hrisontally ~45 degrees relative to the camera-subject line, back light is lowered to the front light height and is similar in angle (diagonal setup, aka cross-fire)
3) for very dynamic, artistic, 3D look: both lights are behind the subject on head's level or slightly above, looking at the subject at ~45 degrees angle.
4) for high fashion look (typical use - female headshot) - clamshell: both lights in front of the subject on the camera axis, one above, one below. Or you can use white/silver reflector for the lower one and use the 2d light as hair (see #1)

As I have said, this is just scratching the surface...

Good luck, hope this helps!

Thanks for the details. In this case it will be one parent and one daughter sitting on a piano bench in front of the piano. Many pairs will go throw this shoot.

I was thinking of just keeping it simple, one flash high on the left and the other high on the right - 45 degrees from the subjects.

What am I wondering is where should the camera be - in front of flash, parallel, or behind?

I have many books about lighting that have skimmed through and did not see answer to the above question.

Thanks, Phil

Nikolai · February 23, 2012

lifeinfocus wrote: »

Thanks for the details. In this case it will be one parent and one daughter sitting on a piano bench in front of the piano. Many pairs will go throw this shoot.

I was thinking of just keeping it simple, one flash high on the left and the other high on the right - 45 degrees from the subjects.

What am I wondering is where should the camera be - in front of flash, parallel, or behind?

I have many books about lighting that have skimmed through and did not see answer to the above question.

Thanks, Phil

Well, that kinda narrows it down a bit :-)

A few questions:

Will they be turned/half-turned to you, visually acknowleging the camera presence, or will they be busy playing?
What kind of piano? Upright? Baby-upright (low profile)? Grand? Baby grand? Electronic? It's important to know the height of the "wall" on top of the keys as it can be a deal breaker.
Age range of the kids? Again, important height-wise.

lifeinfocus · February 23, 2012

Nikolai wrote: »

Well, that kinda narrows it down a bit :-)

A few questions:
Will they be turned/half-turned to you, visually acknowleging the camera presence, or will they be busy playing?

What kind of piano? Upright? Baby-upright (low profile)? Grand? Baby grand? Electronic? It's important to know the height of the "wall" on top of the keys as it can be a deal breaker.

Age range of the kids? Again, important height-wise.

1. Posing - we are planning on half turned to the camera - I hope they will not be playing. Now hear is the hard part ages for the girls will range from 5 to 14, but most will be in the middle.

2. A shiny new baby grand black piano.

3. Height - originally the planners were thinking parent and child standing - and I thought that this was going to be hard enough without having such height differences. So, I am visualizing and planning to have a parent to sit on the left and a child to right. I asked if they wanted full body shots - because of the girls gowns - or waist high. I think they have settled on waist high.

Thanks for the questions. Does this help with positioning the camera in relation to the lighting, or are you thinking about something in addition? Any and all comments are more than welcome.

I am getting up in years and for me this is mostly for the fun of it and to help our small community.

Thanks again,
Phil

Nikolai · February 23, 2012

lifeinfocus wrote: »

1. Posing - we are planning on half turned to the camera - I hope they will not be playing. Now hear is the hard part ages for the girls will range from 5 to 14, but most will be in the middle.

2. A shiny new baby grand black piano.

3. Height - originally the planners were thinking parent and child standing - and I thought that this was going to be hard enough without having such height differences. So, I am visualizing and planning to have a parent to sit on the left and a child to right. I asked if they wanted full body shots - because of the girls gowns - or waist high. I think they have settled on waist high.

Thanks for the questions. Does this help with positioning the camera in relation to the lighting, or are you thinking about something in addition? Any and all comments are more than welcome.

I am getting up in years and for me this is mostly for the fun of it and to help our small community.

Thanks again,
Phil

Gotcha. I take it it's a profile scenario (piano wise), just like you see them when the playing: business end of the piano facing camera-left, bench is in the working position (parallel to the keyboard) and an adult is behind the kid on the bench from the camera's POV.

I'd say you have the following options:

Both lights in front of the subjects, between the subjects and the camera, at about 45 degrees, at a standing adult height, left one set to slightly higher output to fill the shadows on the keys and in general make the image less bland.
Cross-fire mode from my original post mayby at 30 degrees instead of 45, main (front) light to the camera left (like the previous option), the back light behind the subjects/piano to the camera right.
Only if you have a boom for the back light: my original option #1, both lights in line with the camera. If you only have basic lightstands this is a definite no-go.

As a variant of 2 you can try to put the back light *also* to the camera left. However this may create a very strong assymetry, not necessarily desired for family-type portraits.

In any case you camera should be leveled somewhere between the sitting adult eyes level and kid eyes level.

HTH

lifeinfocus · February 23, 2012

Nikolai wrote: »

Gotcha. I take it it's a profile scenario (piano wise), just like you see them when the playing: business end of the piano facing camera-left, bench is in the working position (parallel to the keyboard) and an adult is behind the kid on the bench from the camera's POV.

I'd say you have the following options:
Both lights in front of the subjects, between the subjects and the camera, at about 45 degrees, at a standing adult height, left one set to slightly higher output to fill the shadows on the keys and in general make the image less bland.

Cross-fire mode from my original post mayby at 30 degrees instead of 45, main (front) light to the camera left (like the previous option), the back light behind the subjects/piano to the camera right.

Only if you have a boom for the back light: my original option #1, both lights in line with the camera. If you only have basic lightstands this is a definite no-go.

As a variant of 2 you can try to put the back light *also* to the camera left. However this may create a very strong asymmetry, not necessarily desired for family-type portraits.

In any case you camera should be leveled somewhere between the sitting adult eyes level and kid eyes level.

HTH

Thanks again. I see you work in the IT industry. I did for many years - mgt. LAN/WAN, research and financial standards (XBRL).

I understand the position of the camera level between adult and child's eyes.

Assuming setup as stated in one (1) above, should I put tripod/camera in front of the lightstands, parallel to them or behind them? Or doesn't it matter.

Phil

Nikolai · February 23, 2012

lifeinfocus wrote: »

Thanks again. I see you work in the IT industry. I did for many years - mgt. LAN/WAN, research and financial standards (XBRL).

I understand the position of the camera level between adult and child's eyes.

Assuming setup as stated in one (1) above, should I put tripod/camera in front of the lightstands, parallel to them or behind them? Or doesn't it matter.

Phil

Yes, I'm a software developer by days, photographer by nights and weekends :-)

You shoot from as far back as you can reasonably get so your effective focal length is above 70mm (if you have 70-200 - try to get to 200). So your lights will be between your camera and your subjects.
I'd think of putting the left light not futher than 3 ft from the nearest (to the camera) part of the baby grand (I'm talking about projection to the subject-camera line). And maybe ~3ft to the left of that line. The right one symmetrical on the right. YMMV. Too many unknowns to suggest something more accurate without knowing more specifics.

lifeinfocus · February 24, 2012

Nikolai wrote: »

Yes, I'm a software developer by days, photographer by nights and weekends :-)

You shoot from as far back as you can reasonably get so your effective focal length is above 70mm (if you have 70-200 - try to get to 200). So your lights will be between your camera and your subjects.
I'd think of putting the left light not futher than 3 ft from the nearest (to the camera) part of the baby grand (I'm talking about projection to the subject-camera line). And maybe ~3ft to the left of that line. The right one symmetrical on the right. YMMV. Too many unknowns to suggest something more accurate without knowing more specifics.

Thank You. I am looking forward to this event even more thanks to your help.

Phil

Nikolai · February 24, 2012

lifeinfocus wrote: »

Thank You. I am looking forward to this event even more thanks to your help.

Phil

Phil,
you're welcome!
Let's us know how it played out, what setup did you end up with, etc.
Good luck on the shoot!

lifeinfocus · February 27, 2012

Nikolai wrote: »

Phil,
you're welcome!
Let's us know how it played out, what setup did you end up with, etc.
Good luck on the shoot!

It was lots of fun and exhilarating. This is a Girl Scout father and daughter ball at a beautiful country club. It snowed the day of the shoot - about 6 inches. Just to add to the excitement.

The setting I chose was a room near the ballroom. We moved a piano three times, before I got it in a setting that was fairly good. Added a wider bench and a nice cloth to accomodate more than two - father and daughter - if needed. Set up two flashes - one with umbrella and another with a softbox.

One of my two flashes died late Wednesday. Ordered a new one, next day mail, which meant Friday (day of the shoot). Since I am at end of the UPS route, I was not expecting to receive it in time. So, after three calls and meeting the driver at a earlier time I got it. Just to add to the excitement.

Unfortunately my regular helper could not make it - snow storm. Just to add more excitement (I suppose this is why my hair is platinum colored.)

So, I ended up taking photos of 121 pairs of fathers/granddads and daughters. It went too fast as they wanted to have them printed the same night to handout.

So, I took a number of photos of each and selected the best on the run. Did quick post processing and gave them to a person to have them printed quickly. Everybody except ten people who left early got the photos.

Afterwards, spent many hours editing each photo and exporting two each - one with a graphic and one without. Uploaded to my website.

And now it is time to take a breather and go back to what I learned. For one thing, I should have taken both raw and JPEG, instead of just raw and given the jpegs off for printing as I went.

Quality of the printed photos was better than I hoped - I have high expectations. I didn't want them to look like a snapshot - and they didn't. The hand edited ones look much better of course.

Thanks so much for your most informative comments.

Phil

Nikolai · February 27, 2012

Looks like fun and succeful shoot!

And all that excitement...

Yeah RAW+jpegs is a very handy option for quick results. As always with jpegs, WB can be an issue, but since you were shooting with flash simply setting it to "Flash" would suffice for a non-discriminating viewer.
Congrats on the (apparently) job well done!

Camera in Position to Flash?

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