DPP Moire Reduction Hurts 5D3 IQ

jmphotocraftjmphotocraft GWC for hirePosts: 2,941Registered Users Major grins
edited April 26, 2012 in Cameras
Something is amiss here. I was out shooting a town skyline scene with my 5D2 and 5D3 to do a little comparison. Nothing special, just a test shot. Here is the scene:

moire_off_scene.JPG

When I saw the results I became very nervous that something was wrong with my 5D3 or that I was just going to have to live with a downgrade in ultimate IQ in exchange for the AF and fps and high ISO.

Apparently, the new DPP does not apply the moire reduction to 5D2 files (or it does so very differently), and what it does to 5D3 files is not good. You can turn this off in DPP Preferences by selecting "High Speed", but this also turns of noise reduction.

Here are 100% crops of the 5D3 image illustrating the difference:

Moire Reduction off:
moire_off.JPG

Moire Reduction on:
moire_on.JPG

The image with the MR off looks like the 5D2 image I took. This was shot at ISO 100, so there would be no NR anyway.

It is even detectable at 50% view:

off:
moire_off_50.JPG

on:
moire_on_50.JPG

Hopefully Canon will address this in the next patch of DPP. Maybe they can provide a way to turn MR off but leave NR on? Or just fix the darn thing altogether!

Above shots taken with 70-200/2.8II at f/8.
-Jack

An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.

Comments

  • QarikQarik Krazy Korean Posts: 4,938Registered Users Major grins
    edited March 23, 2012
    wow..you lose a lot of resolution, but I don't the point in turning on MR when MR is not an issue anyway?
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  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft GWC for hire Posts: 2,941Registered Users Major grins
    edited March 23, 2012
    Qarik wrote: »
    wow..you lose a lot of resolution, but I don't the point in turning on MR when MR is not an issue anyway?

    The problem in DPP is that in order to have NR, MR must also be on. I'm going to contact Canon about this.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • ari1982ari1982 Beginner grinner Posts: 5Registered Users Beginner grinner
    edited March 23, 2012
    I am observing the same issue. I have contacted CPS.
  • David_S85David_S85 Spotter of Dgrin Spam and Oddities ChicagolandPosts: 11,441Administrators moderator
    edited March 24, 2012
    That dialog was different just one version ago.
    i-dhHBZv2.jpg
    My Smugmug
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
  • David_S85David_S85 Spotter of Dgrin Spam and Oddities ChicagolandPosts: 11,441Administrators moderator
    edited March 25, 2012
    This.

    Aw, nuts. Canon, you guys just didn't make the time to review or use your own software before release? Almost unforgivable. Please fix DPP viewing and 16-bit TIFF output ASAP.
    My Smugmug
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
  • Matthew SavilleMatthew Saville Wedding Photographer Posts: 3,394Super Moderators Major grins
    edited March 25, 2012
    David_S85 wrote: »
    This.

    Aw, nuts. Canon, you guys just didn't make the time to review or use your own software before release? Almost unforgivable. Please fix DPP viewing and 16-bit TIFF output ASAP.

    As usual, Canon rushes to market with a product that winds up needing a firmware / software update. Nothing new! Still an amazing camera and, barring anything as catastrophic as the 5D mk1 mirror Laughing.gif, ...this is still the best damn camera Canon has ever made in almost every respect, at any price...

    =Matt=
    My first thought is always of light.” – Galen Rowell
    My SmugMug PortfolioMy Astro-Landscape Photo BlogModerator of the Dgrin Weddings Forum
  • David_S85David_S85 Spotter of Dgrin Spam and Oddities ChicagolandPosts: 11,441Administrators moderator
    edited March 25, 2012
    Oh yes, I agree that the cam is oustanding. Just that I rely on DPP almost 100% for post. I trust the software problems will be all worked out by the time I pull the trigger.
    My Smugmug
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
  • David_S85David_S85 Spotter of Dgrin Spam and Oddities ChicagolandPosts: 11,441Administrators moderator
    edited April 5, 2012
    My Smugmug
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
  • chrisjohnsonchrisjohnson Major grins NetherlandsPosts: 769Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 6, 2012
    Qarik wrote: »
    wow..you lose a lot of resolution, but I don't the point in turning on MR when MR is not an issue anyway?

    Sounds right to me. With the off setting you seem to get a good result in what, with my equipment, would be an impossible shot. Why switch MR on when you can expect a reduction in IQ?

    Still I am glad you pros bang on about this to Canon. Like any new camera we can expect some updates as time goes by. At this price I expect perfection :)
  • David_S85David_S85 Spotter of Dgrin Spam and Oddities ChicagolandPosts: 11,441Administrators moderator
    edited April 19, 2012
    New DPP version is available now
    Canon has today updated their DPP with the promised corrections to allow .CR2 files made with the 5D3 to display properly, and hopefully sharper than they were a month ago (disclosure: I don't yet have a 5D3 and can't test this).

    The preferences dialog has also changed back to allow the same configurations as in previous versions.

    DPP display and editing preferences, a month ago, introduced with 5D3, in the box.
    i-TDmSxW4.jpg


    newest DPP, April 19, 2012, v.3.11.26, available for download now at Canon USA site.
    i-trXPvHM.jpg

    I have downloaded it, and can report that the DLO (Digital Lens Optimization) feature works wonders on two of my four lenses that are supported in this package. My 10-22 EF-S benefits the most. The .CR2 file sizes will about double when using it, and that's a bummer. I will only use it on my selected keeper images because of that.
    My Smugmug
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft GWC for hire Posts: 2,941Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 24, 2012
    3.11.26 good to go
    I can confirm they've fixed it.

    5D3 100% crops, reprocessed in DPP 3.11.26:

    moire reduction ON:
    new_dpp.JPG

    OFF:
    new_dpp_moire_off.JPG

    The "off" picture is 179 KB larger, but I don't think I see any difference.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • David_S85David_S85 Spotter of Dgrin Spam and Oddities ChicagolandPosts: 11,441Administrators moderator
    edited April 24, 2012
    Jack, have you tried the DLO feature yet?
    My Smugmug
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft GWC for hire Posts: 2,941Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 25, 2012
    David_S85 wrote: »
    Jack, have you tried the DLO feature yet?

    My lenses are good so I don't worry about it too much. I think it makes a bigger difference for older and/or cheaper lenses. At least that's what Sir Ken Rockwell says. DPP applies DLO by default for all supported lenses, which mine are. It seems to work well yet unobtrusively. It doesn't seem like a game changer for me, but I am not a pixel peeper either.

    I think it works in DPP for all Canon DSLRs though, so I think all you have to do to try it for yourself is download and install the latest DPP.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • David_S85David_S85 Spotter of Dgrin Spam and Oddities ChicagolandPosts: 11,441Administrators moderator
    edited April 26, 2012
    My lenses are good so I don't worry about it too much. I think it makes a bigger difference for older and/or cheaper lenses. At least that's what Sir Ken Rockwell says. DPP applies DLO by default for all supported lenses, which mine are. It seems to work well yet unobtrusively. It doesn't seem like a game changer for me, but I am not a pixel peeper either.

    I think it works in DPP for all Canon DSLRs though, so I think all you have to do to try it for yourself is download and install the latest DPP.

    DLO is amazing, but it doesn't work by default. You need to manually run it. You might be thinking instead of the feature where some newer cams, like the 7D, have a lens distortion, aberrations and anti-vignetting feature (for supported Canon lenses) that you can choose to toggle in the cam, and thus, is supported by DPP as the image is opened in DPP. DLO is a new beast altogether.

    Each of the supported lenses must have the user download each lens data package (they don't ship with DPP). Once installed, the corrections are available with the DLO tab if one wants. I have only two lenses that are supported so far, the 70-200 f/4 L IS and the EF-s 10-22. Both are great lenses, but when DLO is run, the result is nothing less than if one waved a 14-24G through the images. Really, it is that good. Corners are magically sharper. I only use it on keeper images as the CR2 file doubles in size. But what we've found is that once a final TIFF or JPEG is created from the RAW, you can reverse out the DLO image data from the file and it shrinks back to the original big size it began as.
    My Smugmug
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft GWC for hire Posts: 2,941Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 26, 2012
    Oh snap... I didn't realize that. Yeah I was thinking it was just the lens corrections already in DPP. I have a new toy!! Test results coming soon...
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • David_S85David_S85 Spotter of Dgrin Spam and Oddities ChicagolandPosts: 11,441Administrators moderator
    edited April 26, 2012
    So as you do the testing, it has been suggested to first set sharpening in DPP to zero, then run the DLO (I've used 40-70 for strength, 50 is default and that's a good place to start) followed by the normal DPP lens corrections second. You'll notice one of the four operations in the normal lens corrections is now missing, because DLO has taken care of one of them for you, leaving light fall-off and other corrections up to you. Then do all the other stuff DPP offers, including sharpening. I hear that the III will need more than normal sharpening no matter what. I don't have one, but that's what I've read.

    Once you've saved the JPEG or TIFF from the final RAW image, you can optionally go back into the DLO module and uncheck the action and re-save, thus shrinking the RAW file back down to semi-managable size.

    Caveats: DLO will only work on full sized CR2 files. RAW file sizes double unless you reverse the process. The list of lenses supported is a small sample of Canon's offerings. Luckily, DLO is backward compatible back to the 30D days - a big bonus. DPP and DLO is free. Ver. 3.11.26 is the current version.
    My Smugmug
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky
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