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Wedding Photography woes :(
Shaunie
Registered Users Posts: 13 Big grins
Hello Gang,
I'm not sure anyone can help me, or guide me.
I'm from the UK and I've looked over the stickies at the top concerning photographer rights, but I'm not sure if they are applicable in the UK.
Basically,
I did a wedding gig the other month, I told the lady that I charge £60 up front and that I would upload her photos to my smugmug site and she would be able to pick and choose and purchase them off the site.
She asked for a price for them all, which came to just over a thousand, she said she was in financial hardship, so I said I would do her them, off the site, for £435. She was a friend of a friend, i felt obligated to help her.
So, when I told her the price, she went away and then came back and stated that she only had £200 to spend. So I told her that I would allow her to have 300 photos of her choosing, she then came back and said she wanted 500, and in the end we agreed to 400. However, i told her there was a section she couldn't choose from, which was the portraiture shots at the after party, of her guests. She hadn't asked for these as a part of the wedding photography, so I intended on letting her guests to buy these to make up for the costs I'd lost due to her hardship. (She wasn't too happy about this as she wanted free choice of all shots)
We agreed and everything was sorted. So I seperated the photographs she wanted and created a download link, she said she would send her husband around once she had gotten then onto DVD. So like an idiot, I trusted her and gave her the link to download her photos. She uploaded them all to her facebook and, I haven't heard sight or sound of her since.
I was messaging her over her facebook and she wasn't replying, but then 4 days ago, she replied saying she was going to get some photos done with her husband and that she would message me when she came back.
I noticed photographs popping up on her facebook from another photographer. Then I phoned and messaged her and never got a reply, but then had a reply yesterday which basically said, that she was unhappy with the service, that I hadn't got the exterior shots she asked for (basically the ones she got with her new photographer), which she didn't ask for, I took her family group photos and filtered off until I had them two on their own for personal private shots.
She basically made all sorts of ballsy excuses, stuff she hadn't brought up before, saying she didn't like thi and she didn't like that, and she has seeked legal advice, that she was willing to go to court.
Then she said she would offer me £100 for the photographs that she already had. I had to accept, I didn't in so many words say I'd accept but I gave her my paypal and she said she would pay £100 into my account today at noon.
I haven't had the money...
Now I am in an awkward position, as this is what I would call my first "paid gig" and I can't help but feel that I've been naive and stupid to trust her. As in none of her messages previous to her downloading photographs did she once say she was unhappy, on the contrary she liked them, and I made touch ups left, right and centre for her, giving her a false tooth she had missing. (I basically processed nearly every one of the 900 photos).
Everything seemed fine right up until she had to pay.
So now I am left in the limbo, wondering what to do and what steps I could take.
I feel like I have given her a lot of leeway and I feel like she is taking me for granted by her constant delays in payment, especially hiring a new photographer, probably with the money that she should be paying me.
I'm at a loss what to do.
Any advice would make me sleep better at night, as I say, I'm in the UK, so I'm unsure if any laws applicable stateside, would be applicable over here.
I know I have been stupid and I know I have been naive by being lax in my process, but due to her being a friend of a friend, I didn't expect her to not pay for what she got.
I'm not sure anyone can help me, or guide me.
I'm from the UK and I've looked over the stickies at the top concerning photographer rights, but I'm not sure if they are applicable in the UK.
Basically,
I did a wedding gig the other month, I told the lady that I charge £60 up front and that I would upload her photos to my smugmug site and she would be able to pick and choose and purchase them off the site.
She asked for a price for them all, which came to just over a thousand, she said she was in financial hardship, so I said I would do her them, off the site, for £435. She was a friend of a friend, i felt obligated to help her.
So, when I told her the price, she went away and then came back and stated that she only had £200 to spend. So I told her that I would allow her to have 300 photos of her choosing, she then came back and said she wanted 500, and in the end we agreed to 400. However, i told her there was a section she couldn't choose from, which was the portraiture shots at the after party, of her guests. She hadn't asked for these as a part of the wedding photography, so I intended on letting her guests to buy these to make up for the costs I'd lost due to her hardship. (She wasn't too happy about this as she wanted free choice of all shots)
We agreed and everything was sorted. So I seperated the photographs she wanted and created a download link, she said she would send her husband around once she had gotten then onto DVD. So like an idiot, I trusted her and gave her the link to download her photos. She uploaded them all to her facebook and, I haven't heard sight or sound of her since.
I was messaging her over her facebook and she wasn't replying, but then 4 days ago, she replied saying she was going to get some photos done with her husband and that she would message me when she came back.
I noticed photographs popping up on her facebook from another photographer. Then I phoned and messaged her and never got a reply, but then had a reply yesterday which basically said, that she was unhappy with the service, that I hadn't got the exterior shots she asked for (basically the ones she got with her new photographer), which she didn't ask for, I took her family group photos and filtered off until I had them two on their own for personal private shots.
She basically made all sorts of ballsy excuses, stuff she hadn't brought up before, saying she didn't like thi and she didn't like that, and she has seeked legal advice, that she was willing to go to court.
Then she said she would offer me £100 for the photographs that she already had. I had to accept, I didn't in so many words say I'd accept but I gave her my paypal and she said she would pay £100 into my account today at noon.
I haven't had the money...
Now I am in an awkward position, as this is what I would call my first "paid gig" and I can't help but feel that I've been naive and stupid to trust her. As in none of her messages previous to her downloading photographs did she once say she was unhappy, on the contrary she liked them, and I made touch ups left, right and centre for her, giving her a false tooth she had missing. (I basically processed nearly every one of the 900 photos).
Everything seemed fine right up until she had to pay.
So now I am left in the limbo, wondering what to do and what steps I could take.
I feel like I have given her a lot of leeway and I feel like she is taking me for granted by her constant delays in payment, especially hiring a new photographer, probably with the money that she should be paying me.
I'm at a loss what to do.
Any advice would make me sleep better at night, as I say, I'm in the UK, so I'm unsure if any laws applicable stateside, would be applicable over here.
I know I have been stupid and I know I have been naive by being lax in my process, but due to her being a friend of a friend, I didn't expect her to not pay for what she got.
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Comments
well ... ... first off you did not have a written contract and that is imperative in this day and age...as to what to do now..seek legal counsel and have to attorney write her a letter, that just might stop her in her tracks, and have the attorney demand the amount originally agreed upon...aslo print off all your correspondance with her so he / she can advise you properly.
It should have been obvious with all the dickering, haggling (negotiating ) over the prices that she was after all for near nothing.... get everything in writing before hand from now on that is the only way to cover your butt.... ....
You might try Googling Photographers rights UK ... ... just a thought.
No while this will sound totally cold, useless and maybe even annoying comfort, in a way this isn't all bad at all. You say it's your first paid job, you learnt early. With a bit of luck, you'll be smarter than me and not let it happen again.
I don't trust anyone these days and haven't for some time. It dosen't pay to.
I have had people say " don't you trust me"? and almost without fail, the ones that say it are the ones that will bite you. I have also found that honest people don't expect to be trusted, they expect to pay up front. I have found as well that the people that you go out of your way for and they still complain and want more are also the people that are far more likely to rip you off. The genuine ones want to name their next born after you if you give them a free pic and treat you like god where the ones that always want more are never happy.
The story of the excuses being brought up after the fact is an old one and I have heard it too many times.
Some years ago I had a very heated exchange with a couple that came in 2 weeks before their wedding and told me the father wasn't happy with paying for everything up front 2 weeks before the wedding as in the contract they had been provided 6 months before hand and they would be paying the balance after the event.
No you won't .
The upshot was I wrote them a refund cheque and sent them on their way to find some other suck... err shooter that would be more agreeable to their conditions.
Afterwards the couple then rang back agreeing to pay and the father rang me threatening then pleading me to do the gig. I refused saying the relationship had been soured, the mutual trust had been replaced with dissension and I could not go ahead with it.
IT was about a couple of years later I was talking to another local shooter who asked me if I remembered cancelling a job with a couple 2 weeks before because they wouldn't pay the coverage. I said I'd never forget. He said you were smarter than me. Apparently they came to him, rubbishing me up hill and down dale and booked him as he had a policy of a deposit up front and final payment on delivery.
Of course, when it came to pay up, there were endless things they were unhappy with, even the things they had specifically asked for. The upshot was he never got more than the deposit other than learning a valuable lesson.
Now I know a lot of shooters still work this way and say they don't have problems but I'm afraid I'm not that trusting and I have never lost a job because of my policy and like this one, any I did loose I feel was probably for the better and at very last, not worth the gamble, the frustration, stress and insult to my limited intelligence.
The other one you should watch for IMHO is friends of friends. They also seem to have a prevalence in my experience of being difficult to deal with and ultimately unprofitable.
I don't know if financially this is worth persuing as insulting and hurtful as the experience is. I do know the frustration and distraction from getting on with more pleasant and positive things definitely isn't.
I'd send a letter of demand or other first tear approach which they will probably ignore and then more on. I don't really think it's worth it.
What you got from this was a relatively cheap lesson that may stop you loosing a lot more in the future.
When people ask me now if I don't trust them I look them straight in the eye and say " Of course not! I don't know you nor have any reason to trust you. Trust has to be earned and if you don't think I can do a good job for you then the money is insignificant to the loss of these important memories".
The only people that had a comeback argument to that history showed I was entirely correct in not trusting.
IT stings like a bitch but I doubt there is a person in business in the world that hasn't felt your pain.
The thing is to move on and don't forget the lesson nor make the same mistake again.
IF you do that all the jobs in future will be better!
Yes, thanks for both of your comments. I think I am going to take this one on the chin and just leave it as it is.
I am going to report the photographs on Facebook and then delete her and send her a letter saying I reserve the copyright of my photographs.
Also, just another thought. Seems like you are charging very little for your time and then depending on photo sales to make your money. You may want to think about balancing that out or flipping it. Instead of £1000 for pictures and £60 for time, maybe £1000 for time and £60 for pics. That way you are not hoping that the photo sales go through.
Jarboe Doggart Photography - jarboedoggart.com
As a resolution.... K.I.S.S. (Keep it Simple Stupid) is a motto that I think leads to a lot less stress in the end. You made a error in judgement and trust and no matter which road you turn down will always have issues trying to collect from them. With no written contract your fighting uphill. Give the images once on 1 disc, have a document signed by them that they received the images (every single one you shot) for whatever they have paid and walk away from it - done, dust your hands, learn your lesson and worry yourself no further on it. It isn't worth your time, stress or further financial loss pursuing anything else from them.
Glort is right.... and this kind of goes along with the other thread about pricing that Glort and I are involved in; http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=229171, Set a price and before you are asked about discounts or cheaper pricing, set up within yourself what you are comfortable with.... think of scenarios that may come up and how you might handle them. Then resolve to stick with those scenarios only when you truly feel it's warranted (but also resolve to stay with your set pricing). Get it all in writing... if you give a discount... have it in writing... "normal price of xxx is discounted for this customer on photographers choice to the set dollar amount of xxx....." Get your money up front and give the customer the great service they deserve.... do that, then their friends of friends will come knowing money is due up front and hopefully you won't have this issue again.
Tough and expensive lession.... find your pricing, feel good about it, keep things simple... when asked about reduction.. in 95% cases, just say "No, I can't do that" and then shut up... you start giving reasons on why you can't and you give them the opportunity to make you feel bad, and show you why you need to give them a break.... tell them no once and leave it at that... if they don't want your services.. move on to those that will. By being professionally firm up front, it will resolve a lot of the back end issues for you.
Good luck in the future, but from this one... drop and run.
I've put a report to facebook, stating my images can't be used on her facebook. If that goes through it will at least give her a taste of what its like to be a photographer, uploading and editing, uploading and editing.
It's all the lies though which hurt. The reasoning for her "complaints" where basically a load of shite, quite upsetting really, especially when I saw that her "new" photographs where quite substandard.
I think I'll take your advice, move on and learn.
They are always a load of crap mate. Remember though they are just an excuse to justify their lousy behaviour because they don't have any legitimate complaints. I gaurantee you they will rubbish you to everyone they know because You have to be the bad guy in order for them to again justify their behaviour and set the stage for their victim Role.
I'll also bet that some of the people they tell will have had prior experience and have a real good idea of what the truth really is.
Not much you can do though. As said put it behind you and maybe with a bit of luck Karma will bite them firmly on the arse one day and they will meet people just like themselves.
Well, i've just had to go to the hotel where they held their function and I did my photography to pick up a lens I left.
I'm a 32 year old bloke, ain't cried for ages, walked out of there in tears like. I know it sounds lame, but I'm really upset with myself for trusting them.
She sent me messages stating that she'd contacted "loads of photographers", about the price I charged, (Which was £200 for 400 of her images), and she said that every photographer had said that was extortionate, especially with not having any prints.
Which I don't believe, as in the same message she had said the reasoning for her not paying me in full was due to the fact that her husband had to hire his suit out again "to get the shots, that she wanted, but I didn't get". The photographs that she had taken with the other photographer (probably with my money), had her husband in them, so I took the pictures I had taken and the ones where she claimed her husband has to rent a suit.
Well, lets just say that, that was blatantly a lie.
Has anyone ever reported their Intellectual Property to Facebook? When a client uploads your images without paying for them, as surely this is (and facebook states so), a copyright infringement.
This may seem quite petty, although, it's nowhere near as petty as some of the actions of the client. She seems to be proud of the fact that she has attained her wedding photographs for free; however, with petty people, come petty frustrations. At the end of the day, she hired me as a freelance photographer, not a wedding photographer; the big difference being that, she didn't pay for her products and service upfront. I was clear to her that the fee charged (£60), was for expenses, travel and food. And that any photo's she wanted, she could purchase.
To further prove her pettiness, she cited that "she fed me", and that, that cost her money...
I wouldn't mind, I'm a vegetarian, I didn't even eat it...
So, I'm waiting for facebook to get back to me, hopefully they will rule in my favour, which might force her to get back in contact with me, as (i'm not sure if I've mentioned this), she hasn't even paid me the £100 she had promised. It's been 4 days...
GaryB
“The single most important component of a camera is the twelve inches behind it!” - Ansel Adams
Sometimes different things that wouldn't normally worry us as much get to us all. Sometimes you have expectations and put your heart and soul into things and then have the rug pulled out from you in ways you never would have imagined in 100 years. That can really get to you.
the thing is this IS making you a lot stronger. Never again will you get touched up like this and learning to say no is one of the best things anyone can learn.
I have to say what you are relating is EXACTLY what I have gone though myself. The petty excuses and justifications to make you feel like S hit and that you are some sort of bad person which is completely reverse finger pointing.
If you are anything like me ( which hopefully your not!) you might have plans of revenge running through your head. I am known for being Cold, heartless and "going for the throat as my friends say".
I have been burned and REALLY burned some people back and put them in a lot of tears but it's really hollow and empty and not nearly as satisfying as I imagined.
There were some clients that really stitched me up some years ago and had both me and my wife in tears for the hardship they put us through that we did NOTHING to deserve. That's what hurts the most. Different when you stuffed up but when you did nothing wrong and they are just being greedy and on a power trip, it cuts deep.
I got them back and probably derailed their plans and ideas in life for Years. I have no doubt I returned the stress they put my wife and I though many times over and for a lot longer. What really got me was they brought up feelings and a side to me I had not visited for years and thought I had put it behind me. I guess you can take the animal out of the jungle but not the jungle out of the animal.
At the end, it gets you no where and you just wish the whole thing never happened and it went as it should have and that's it.
I'm just trying to say as near impossible as it is, try not to stew on it, it's just more negativity.
I know the frustration fills your every waking thought, but try and get on with involving yourself in something good and positive..... as hard as that is as well.
Don't take no for an answer to have the pics taken from faceache.
I don't use it but I predict when you do she will rubbish you and mght link or name you. Perhaps it would be wise to strike first and put up a post or whatever you do there talking about the client that ripped you off and how it has hurt you ( with no names or links of course.) so if anyone goes to your site after hearing her bleating, there is a whole other side of the story for them to see.
I have been down the road your on and you have my sympathies mate.
Well to update, Facebook have removed the images from her page, I got cofirmation today.
Whilst it may seem like not much of a step forward, it is.
If this went to County Court, I can now cite this as a reasonable circumstance that backed up my argument that she is using my images without my permission, (and in turn payment).
If she kicks up a fuss about "her" images being removed, then, that's good, my images must be that good.
With her being the "proud" person she is, having her images removed off something she uses quite a lot, is taking a private matter and solidifying some cause for grievance on my part. However she wraps this, it will always put her in a continual contradicting problem.
I am going to send her a cease and desist letter, explaining that the images are in fact mine and any further reproduction of the images that she hasn't paid for, are in fact infringement on my copyright.
I would also say that upon payment of the outstanding monies, You will release that copyright to her.
IF I understand correctly she hired another shooter to take pics because she was not happy with your work which she deemed to be substandard.
If you pics are so bad, Why is she using them then when she could be using the other shooters??