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Your opinion on a sales call
Wiren
Registered Users Posts: 741 Major grins
Shot a high school softball playoff game earlier this year as in invite from one of the coaches. Gave the head coach a disc of downsized, watermarked photos to use on his year end slideshow. Received an email today from head coach... one of the players signed intent with Portland State U. (OR). The high school team wants to print posters for the middle schools to encourage young ladies to play softball, they want to use one of my photo's since between alllll of the parents who snapped photo's (with higher end cams than mine too I might add) and video... nobody had gotten this gal at bat.....:scratch
The head coach was approached by the school about a copy of the print... he was cool and said that he would call me about the shot, but it would cost them as I probably wouldn't be giving my stuff away :lust kudo's for coach looking out for a shooter he barely met earlier in the spring! I told coach to have the requester of the print call me to make arrangements...
Parent of the young athlete called later to ask if i'd give the shot to him... yeah.... not happening. I told him my charge for an original print download that the school could use it if they wanted to once downloaded. Said parent said... "i'm not paying for the shot... it's the school that wants it and i've paid enough for ball fees already...!" All good I say, if the school wants it, they can buy it. Parent then says maybe I should give it away with a watermark for advertising... I told him, no bueno - I have no model release... and getting one after the fact is not something i'm willing to deal with. He as the parent and the young lady may be ok with using the photo in schools to advertise HS softball, but I won't put my watermark on it and get hit for no release and using shot for advertising...:deal
So, my answer to him was; No, I will not give it away or reduce fees. Whoever wants it, can buy it (as online sales are extremely rare, I sell original size personal use downloads for $275.00 - nobody has ever done it....) which is what i'd do for the school instead of sticking them with a commercial use fee....
I gave this answer directly with no room for negotiation, take it or leave it... it's only one sale of one photo and after the SM charge (via download), my portion would only be about $240... nice, but not so much to start painting myself in a corner about.... no, I never made any sales from the parents who saw the photos and this is my first approach about them. Would I love the sale, sure, but not at getting wheedled and deedled down in price or potentially putting myself in a regretful position.
Anyhoo, that was my response and i'll stand firm - what would you have said/done? I only ask for the contrast of opinion... maybe I can learn something new here.....:dunno
Lee
The head coach was approached by the school about a copy of the print... he was cool and said that he would call me about the shot, but it would cost them as I probably wouldn't be giving my stuff away :lust kudo's for coach looking out for a shooter he barely met earlier in the spring! I told coach to have the requester of the print call me to make arrangements...
Parent of the young athlete called later to ask if i'd give the shot to him... yeah.... not happening. I told him my charge for an original print download that the school could use it if they wanted to once downloaded. Said parent said... "i'm not paying for the shot... it's the school that wants it and i've paid enough for ball fees already...!" All good I say, if the school wants it, they can buy it. Parent then says maybe I should give it away with a watermark for advertising... I told him, no bueno - I have no model release... and getting one after the fact is not something i'm willing to deal with. He as the parent and the young lady may be ok with using the photo in schools to advertise HS softball, but I won't put my watermark on it and get hit for no release and using shot for advertising...:deal
So, my answer to him was; No, I will not give it away or reduce fees. Whoever wants it, can buy it (as online sales are extremely rare, I sell original size personal use downloads for $275.00 - nobody has ever done it....) which is what i'd do for the school instead of sticking them with a commercial use fee....
I gave this answer directly with no room for negotiation, take it or leave it... it's only one sale of one photo and after the SM charge (via download), my portion would only be about $240... nice, but not so much to start painting myself in a corner about.... no, I never made any sales from the parents who saw the photos and this is my first approach about them. Would I love the sale, sure, but not at getting wheedled and deedled down in price or potentially putting myself in a regretful position.
Anyhoo, that was my response and i'll stand firm - what would you have said/done? I only ask for the contrast of opinion... maybe I can learn something new here.....:dunno
Lee
Lee Wiren
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http://www.imagesbyceci.com
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Picadilly, NB, Canada
Yeah the money would be nice but if you give the shot away, Where do you go from there? Endless freebie street is all I can see. I'm sure the school would think there is some obligation to them but if they are anything like schools here, they are money hungry and want every cent they can get.
Maybe you won't be invite to shoot any more games. If you didn't sell anything from this one, that's hardly going to worry you is it?
The parent makes a valid point as well. The school collects the fees from the players and essentially they are like any other business. They want the shot to ultimately promote their Business / cause so there is no reason why they shouldn't pay for it.
I'm guessing your fee would be covered by 1-2 players fess so the school would do well on the return on investment in getting new players through the use of the image. It's a straight forward advertising deal for their gain so no reason why you shouldn't get your fee from them.
I think you did yourself and the profession a great service in standing your ground and educating the public that not every shooter is prepared to give their work away and be screwed over for their efforts.
As you have to register Copyright in the states it might be a good Idea to make sure that is done on this image if you haven't aready so if they do try to poach the shot and use it anywhere you can hand their thieving backsides out to dry.
Good call Glort... i've never copyrighted an image before, i'll have to research the red tape for doing so and get that done... unless you have links or tips....
I talked to my fellow co-worker who assists in their coaching staff and told her how much I respected the head coach for looking out for your's truly... I thought that was completely awesome, as most coaches working for the school system and their program would have driven a bus over me to steal the image....
Thanks for the input guys, glad to hear my thoughts were well founded.
Lee
I cannot add to this thread as all has pretty much been said by SNOWGIRL and GLORT...
Kudos to ya tho...
I am making a few assumptions so if they are wrong, please let me know.
I visited your website and you have some nice images, but I didn't see any sports or event photos for sale. To me it looks like you were invited by a coach you know or met to shoot with no expectation of selling anything. Which is fine.
You gave him some low rez images for him / school to use. Nice.
Now all of a sudden someone actually expresses an interest in purchasing an image.
Now with an opportunity to sell an image and gain a little exposure / good will / extra money, etc. You come across as a bit of a primadonna. You want $275.00 for a download and you ain't budging, even though you have never sold anything at this price.
While I do agree you should be compensated for the image it's the attitude (percieved my my reading your post) and setting a price never obtained by you.
You went with no expectation of making any sales and made sure you didn't get any.
If you had said sure no problem, what a great athlete I really enjoyed shooting her and the game. I can provide a fully processed high rez image for $25.00.
Which approach do you think could lead to additional work?
Sam
he never turned down the school...he turned down a parent that wanted his image for free.... I see nothing in the least that states the OP is a prima donna... he just wants to be fairly compensated for his work... .... ...If he tells the school I'll give it to you for $25 then he is stuck in that extremely low below poverty bracket and it could take years to re-value his products... Now he has set his price and the best thing for him to do is to immediately price all his work accordingly, including paper prints and so on....
We are always telling people to not UNDER SELL or UNDER VALUE THEIR WORK ... ... doesn't matter if he sells thousands of images a day or 1 every 20 yrs... He should value his work at a pro level so that it will show that all of his work has a value worth paying for... ... ...
So I will reiterate for the OP... re-price all your work, raise your prices to match the 275 you are asking for this download ... ... and also get your print prices in the same league... ... You won't sell anything if the downloads are 275 and an 8x10 is $10-25... ... and make sure that all images are watermarked that are in all your galleries
Hi Sam, nice to hear from you again, hope all is well. I can see where my post may have been mis-interpreted a bit... I was trying to keep the background story brief and may have not given it the depth of field...
I have looked at several well respected photographers in my area (a couple I have worked for) and their prices which they have been successful at (physical prints). As I am not at the business level as they are yet, but meet their shooting level, I have priced my physical prints to be competitive with those photographers. I used to price them higher, but those never sold as consumers in my geographical locale can get similar (but different) work for less, is mine better... debatable, but price means a lot in this economy. So, my prices for prints were done with a lot of study and thought... I have sold a heck of a lot more physical prints and had more orders off the website for prints than I ever did before... sometimes you sell more for less schtick....
After debating my print pricing and finally resolving to what would be a long term trial at where they are now... I sat down to think about my digital download prices. This brings up a whole new ballgame. You allow a download once and they can reprint it ad naseum.... While I wanted the prices to be higher, I also did not want to discourage sales... so, lets take a look at my madness here; and believe me, i'm not trying to sound defensive or self righteous in my explanation, it's ok if you disagree with it and I may very well be on the losing end of the wrong track... but right now, i'm comfortable with it and if you feel like detailing and spelling out for me where you think i'm wrong, i'll listen, like I said, I may learn something here....
I made personal use web sized prints quite affordable... I am thinking iTunes single song sale here.... it's small, good to look at on computer/phone/tablet and such. Priced at $15 dollars, this is where parents are more likely to download the one shot they love of their childs sports season and share it with family with email and 4x6 prints....
I made 1mpix at $50... thinking, the best they'd get is what... 5x7 or 8x10...?, priced at $50, it's almost twice as much as a physical print... decent price and grandparents get a nice copy of the kid....
the 4mpix size is meant for folks who may want to print a decent size small landscape or have clarity when looking at it on their large screen... it would print well at... what.. 11x14 or even maybe 16x20 ? Priced at $125 it's double the cost of an 11x4 print, less than half of a 16x20.... reasonble but more pricey, sales here will be fewer but not a total turn off....
Personal License Original ... now they can print large stuff... and as many as they want... I am only collecting a one time fee... but I set the price at $275, double the cost of a 30x40 print to try to keep it as an attractive option... and collect a nice profit from it, they still have to pay the price of printing if that is what they intend... trying to see things from the buyers perspective also...
Art is correct.. I did not turn down the school... it was the players parent that was wanting the photo for free.... almost angry at me that I was able to get the shot when he had been doing video of her the whole season and never came away with that good of a shot. I told him I understood that he should not have to pay for something just to let the school use it... if they want it, they can pay me for it. As I understand, they did this last year when a boy signed with University of Oregon... his parent did have a nice shot of the player and gave the image away free... they then made 3-4 poster size prints for each of the middle schools that feed into the high school in order to encourage kids to sign up for their ball program..... the school got off lucky with that nice parent... but that's not the case here and I choose not to give it away... I don't think my pricing is too high for their intended use... if it gets even one or two kids to join the ball team, they've made their money back.
Also, my post may have made it sound that I spoke in a haughty fashion to the parent and coach... let me assure you I was as professional as I am at my customer service oriented day job that I have been doing for over 13 years with great success and accolades from customers, bosses and co-workers alike (not trying to toot my horn, but I do do a great job at keeping people pleased with the outcomes to my problem solving). I was polite, but firm. Parent expressed exasperation and maybe some pressure from the school and possibly irritation of his not being able to provide said photo himself. I explained my price and what the purchase entailed for use the school intends and also spoke to him like a fellow professional... I saw him and his nice gear at the game. I explained my pricing assists me in keeping my gear up so I can continue shooting and running my business and that comes at a cost, which as he knows and acknowledged is a bit expensive... At the end, he stated that he and the head coach would approach the school and inform them of my prices and that if they wanted the shot, they would need to contact me to get the digital copy.
One last note... By my statement that "Nobody has ever done it" (referring to purchasing an original size print), I have sold a handful of the 4 mpix size at $125 and during softball season I sell typically a couple hundred worth of 5x7's to the parents of my daughters team... so it's not like I am never selling anything, just have not sold an original size download at $275....
Hope that helps clear things up.... willing to listen if you have suggestions on different thinking about my pricing structure.... tried to reason it out well for myself... i'm not a rich, self-sufficient photog yet (still need that day job for bread and butter), but am supplementing my income better and better each year....
Cheers and Happy Thanksgiving Sam
Thanks for your comments also Art.
Lee
Art... hopefully the above response to Sam will show you that I have thought my pricing out and that my $275 digital copy price is in the proper league that it belongs...... but as with Sam, if you feel I have thought wrong in my pricing structure.. I am willing to listen to any other model or thought process you have and will take it under consideration...
Cheers
Lee
Reading your thoughts on pricing was informative. It sounds like you're on top of that for your market and it was a nice explanation too.
Yes it looks like you have YOUR ducks all in a row... ...
Thank you for taking the time to post a very well thought out comprehensive response. The most important thing for me with regard to your response is my feeling / interpretation of the tone / attitude. To me much better / professional.
It is difficult to always accurately express ones thoughts and ideas in writing.
While I do appreciate your explanation of pricing, I still have a different opinion. Please remember SmugMug doesn't pay me to agree with everyone.
My thoughts with regard to the school is pretty simple................while most school systems are top heavy money wasting inefficient government monstrosities, when you get down to the teachers, and parents they for the most part are doing their best and there ain't much money left.
I believe looking at the intended use of this image as a business, money maker for the school is flawed. They are trying to make a local (by your post) flyer to put in 4 middle schools to encourage local kids to participate in athletics. They arn't going to print up thousands and sell them at the mall. The money generated by the kids fees goes to the expense of operating the program. No Porsche's, or hot tubs. From a business standpoint they can not buy your image at your asking price.
While pricing is a complex issue with many different opinions. Confucius say: If there is demand and no sales, price to high. If there is no demand, price irrelevant.
I do understand not giving it away, but you can't sell it for $275.00, you could have considered issuing an invoice for the full amount with a one time school discount or athletic donation.
Look at the big picture. Don't try and squeeze max profit out of each individual transaction.
Sam
I'm hearing you Sam and appreciate your Confucius remark... much the tack I took with my pricing model.... people want the prints, I never sold any when the price was too high... so I made more reasonable prices after research showed me where prices needed to be.
I also understand the thoughts about schools not having a lot of money to spare... I get it. And when I spoke to the parent, I let him know my price, told him to relay it to the school and have them call me if they wanted to talk shop... I will certainly listen to them if they ask for a certain "school discount".... for the kids... I could make something like that work... but it won't be for $25 dollars either.
Pricing is a tricky thing... while I can see discounting a little at special times can be a good thing... making a habit of doing it too often or for too much can hurt you... as a quote back at you... here is one from Katharine Paine I had found some time ago when trying to find my pricing structure....
“The moment you make a mistake in pricing, you're eating into your reputation or your profits.”
For me... discounting too much too often would feel like a mistake... For the school, I think it's a grey area here... yes, you say there's no money left and they deserve a huge discount for the kids... but on the other side of the coin... this is an extracurricular activity here.... they do fund raisers all year and use their leverage of "for the kids" to get things for cheap or next to nothing... I think some school programs use it too often (never cry wolf....) and at times, they need to pay more than just pennies to get what they want.
The key for me here is this.... the school wants (W-A-N-T-S) this photo... they don't NEED it... If I was keeping safety gear from them and not reducing my price and expecting top dollar... then i'd feel like a douchebag... but this is not the case.. this is a case of them wanting something at no cost to promote their program... do they have other ways to promote their program.... yes. Will they not get any ball players unless they use my photo... certainly not... so they can live without it and would be happier if they got it and even happier if they get it for free.... Well, sir, there's no such thing as a free lunch and if it isn't a necessity to the livelihood of what you're doing, then you don't need it, if you want it, pay for your lunch.... at least that's the way I view it.
I feel that giving them too much of a discount would hurt the livelihood of my business more than theirs if they had to pay full price... and for me.. that would be my "mistake in pricing". This isn't to say I won't entertain any thoughts on discounts.... I currently offer a slight "facility discount" to the local hospital that keeps repeating business... for them it makes sense and I don't think i'd be selling them as much if I didn't offer them the small discount.. they like the idea of the discount more than the dollar amount they get out of it.. the "feeling" of saving money over full price is a bonus to the facility. That discount is about 15% off retail, and I may entertain giving that discount to this one time deal... that would make it $233.75 to them instead of $275... somehow, I don't think they are going to jump for joy over that... and i'll only offer it if they ask for it, as for every dollar discounted to them is a dollar less in my pocket.
This is a great discussion and I am glad that you bring opposing thoughts.... it helps a lot of us think about pricing structure, how to handle customers and the way to deal with different scenarios.. I can only imagine how the contrast of opinion has a lurker's synapses firing away... I hope this thread is of good assistance for anybody struggling with their pricing model, there are a lot of answers out there that fit each individual for their situation and comfort level in different ways... what way works for one, may not work for another.....
Here is a good article on pricing factors that may help others.....; http://www.strategicbusinessteam.com/small-business-marketing-strategy/7-critical-factors-that-will-influence-the-pricing-of-your-product/
Take care all, and eat lot's of turkey!!
Lee
have you really never seen our sticky thread: "Photographer's Resources"?
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Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
Well, if I put thought into it, I know I have seen it,... have I taken the time to read it.... not really. But I will delve into it and take a look.... sorry, I don't read each and every thread on every forum I visit... I simply haven't the time.
Thanks for pointing it out, i'm sure it will help.
Cheers Angelo.
Lee
I think this is one of the more insightful Comments I have read in a while, and certainly hits a chord with me.
And I agree with you Lee.
While I understand Sams comment, I also think much the same as you. I expect our school systems may be different but also very much the same. I saw the balance sheet of my kids primary school some years back where they had a LOT of money in the bank but as part of the school fees, we were making mandatory " Donations to the school P&C while we were paying for every single book, excursion and thing they did. I also found the schools balance sheet was going up and had been for a while.
The only plans for what the school wanted to purchase were still being funded by projects to raise money for them even though the school already had the money in the bank 10 times over.
To my less than elegant way of putting it, a school has more damn money than I do so if anything, they should be donating to me. In reality, they pay pretty much everyone else for what they provide, why should I be effectively taking out of my pocket?
Maybe my opinion and yours Lee is wrong and we are greedy or whatever but the bottom line is, If I'm going to make a mistake, Charging for the image is the side of caution I'd prefer to err on.
Just one other thought.....
I'd prefer to have it known that I wanted to charge for the image and the school knocked it back/ couldn't afford it than I gave it to the school for nothing.
The first scenario might see me as a tight , greedy bastard but it lets people know my images have value and I'm a professional business.
The other scenario I believe gives rise to the possibility of people thinking I'm a push over and that people shouldn't have to pay for my work.
I DON"T in practicality see the scenario of me donating and people thinking I'm a good bloke and going out of their way to support me. In my experience, that unfortunately doesn't happen these days very often at all.
Exactly my point Glort.... on all counts.. especially on the side of erring to El Numero Uno's favor....
I am finding more and more that when you do a favor with the thought that it promotes you as a favorable business to obtain services from, instead of it gaining you a lot of customers with money to spend it only brings you folks expecting the same favors and more than the last guy got.
This is not to say you can't provide with a smile and top notch customer service, it only says that you mean what you say and say what you mean, in a kind, firm and professional air.... that is a concept that American consumers (and possibly more widely spread than that) are unfortunately forgetting these days.
If my thinking on this is wrong.... i'm sure i'll figure it out someday and change to suit pace, but until then, I will keep using the business model and pricing I am currently using as if feels right. But that's not to say experience can't or won't change my point of view... Sam may have something that his life experiences have taught him that I may not be attuned to yet.... maybe not. Guess the future will decide that.
I am not sure I ever see myself as ever quitting my day job to be able to do photography full time... it requires more and more to barely make a living at it anymore so unless I find an awesome niche that nobody else can or will fill in my geographical locale, or I win the lotto....... it will always be nice supplemental income that brings me joy every time I shoot and pretend to be Mr. Big Business, but if i'm going to practice at it being a business for me, I will practice hard at doing it the way I see as right.
If you don't believe me, just look at all the people in line to get into a store for "deals" today
Your Black Friday is amazing... in so many less than ideal ways. Some of the stuff I have read on photo forums about people lining up for 4 hours to buy things stuns me. Consumerism gone made and sheeple manipulated by big business to the extreme.
I can't think of a single thing I would line up for 4 hours to buy other than a new Pancreas!
I used to live in a wealthy school district that spend about 10.5k per student. My current school district is nearly bankrupt and spends about 15.5k per student. And that difference definitely isn't going into academic programs. Unless you live in rural appellatia, a poor school district generally gets that way from its bad spending habits... so if you're doing work for them, don't feel shy about asking for a larger slice. They definitely have the money, you just need to convince them it's a priority.
Hours? Try days! These fools will camp outside the stores to preserve their places in line.
Got a call from a parent of one of the other students. They wanted a custom composite done of just their kid and some full res proofs they could use for their own use (claims to be a designer). Their budget? $50.
I said I can do the composite for $100 but that doesn't include any proofs. They said they want the full res files to do stuff with so I quoted them $250 for the unedited full res shots.
They said no.
I said, okay -- let me know if you change your mind.
They wanted me to do compositing and all this other stuff -- hours of work, for what amounts to $2 an hour. I'm the only person with the product they want so they're SOL or they'll eventually pay. No skin off my back.
Photographers need to stick to their guns until people learn that art and work have a baseline value and cost. Too many freebies in this industry is killing us all. Everyone expects that freebie now.
Glort there were people staying at a local car dealership 3 days in advance waitinf to see what was going to be on sale...they had no idea of what used cars would be on special or w=how the prices would run...and at the big box stores sleeping bags and someone to make cofffee and food runs is the norm here for 36 to 48 hours.... but then again the usa is a capitalist country, thru and thru... ... ... when the doors fly open for black friday there are always ems crews parked in the fire lanes waiting for the 1st causalities of the season ... ... ( not death mind you but bruised and battered from fighting over limited items on the shelves.... I do not do any shopping from Thanksgiving to Monday next.... .... unless I have to get an insulin prescription filled and that is always done the day before thanksgiving....but then again I HATE shopping.
http://www.moose135photography.com