Eliminating 4x6" prints

jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
edited December 25, 2013 in Mind Your Own Business
So one emphatic suggestion from my "Aggressive Cropping?" thread was to not offer 4x6" prints for sale at all, rather than cropping to encourage sales of larger prints.

I think I'd like to do this. Seems an ironic shame to shoot with pro equipment that can produce huge posters only to sell mostly 4x6" prints.

However, my customers seem to loooove their 4x6s, so I'm nervous. Here is a typical order, all 4x6, except the composite, which is 8x10 minimum:

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2
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Gross: $46.60. Most people seem to like buying small prints of every picture I take of their child, rather than choosing a few favorites and printing those larger. My hope is that by eliminating 4x6s, parents will do that. My fear is that people won't like this and that it will generate ill will. I'd hope that wouldn't happen, because I live in this town and my kids are in the league. I have to walk a fine line between "doing something nice for" and "making money off of" my community. This is not my full time job, it's not like I depend on the money. However it is a lot of work and I'd like to be rewarded for it. My other fear is that rather than buying seven 4x6s for $28, people will just buy like three 5x7s for $18. But mostly I want kids and parents to have bigger prints that will be special and make the kids feel like stars.

Thoughts?
-Jack

An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
«134

Comments

  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited May 31, 2013
    I'm trying to remember if we know if the majority of sales are 4x6 due to price, or due to some other reason (the parents have 4x6 photo albums or existing photo frames to swap images into, the 4x6 is easier to scrap book, etc.).

    If they are choosing 4x6 for reasons other than "its the cheapest print option" then you probably should keep offering that print size but just make it more pricey so that you gross more revenue.

    Sometimes you don't want images for hanging on wall. We have a TON of images of our two year old daughter already. The bulk have never been printed, except in Shutterfly books. A select few, mostly from professional photographers, get printed to 5x7, some 8x10, one or two 11x14, and about two as 20x24. That's it. If we had many more large prints of her, what would we do with them over the years? Not enough wall space, and too hard to store and archive.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited May 31, 2013
    Jack,

    You posted: "My other fear is that rather than buying seven 4x6s for $28, people will just buy like three 5x7s for $18. But mostly I want kids and parents to have bigger prints that will be special and make the kids feel like stars."

    If this is really true why not inform the parents of this desire and maybe offer one 8X10 or larger at 1. the same price as a 4X6, or 2. a greatly reduced price for each 4, or 6, or 8 4X6 purchased, or some derivative of this?

    Sam
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited May 31, 2013
    Good idea Sam. Maybe a package deal, an 8x12 plus a 4x6, or an 8x12 plus a digital file.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited May 31, 2013
    Good idea Sam. I should slash prices on big prints regardless. 4 years of this has taught me that people just don't buy them. I think I can count on my fingers and toes how many I've sold. And I can do this now, without having to wait till next season.

    Thanks for the feedback Bill.

    I'm still tempted to do away with 4x6 next year though. Is 5x7 that much harder to scrapbook or throw in an album??
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited May 31, 2013
    Done. Just sent out an email to my list with these example prices:

    Size Old Price New Price!
    8x10 $15.95 $8.95
    12x18 $25.95 $17.95
    16x20 $34.95 $24.95
    20x30 $54.95 $39.95

    Sure I think my photos are worth the old price or more. But the fact is nobody was buying them. I just want people to see their players (and my photos!) in all their glory. Hope this works.

    5D3_5397-X2.jpg

    5D3_4347-X2.jpg

    i-VQ9gxB5-X2.jpg

    5D3_2534-X2.jpg
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • jbakerphotojbakerphoto Registered Users Posts: 251 Major grins
    edited May 31, 2013
    Dont do it! Laughing.gif!! You have equipment to replace in a couple of years...Anyway, my mentor was telling me that she offers a proof package. So you say you can have 20 unedited 4x6's basically for $60 and there is no other way to buy a 4x6. You can do packages in smuggy...Your just guaranteeing a 60 order instead of 10 dollar order...
    40D,Rebel XT,Tamron 17-50 2.8,Tamron 28-80 3.5-5.6, Canon 50 1.8, Sigma 70-200 2.8, Canon 580EX , Sunpack 383 w/ optical slave

    www.jonbakerphotography.com
  • Mike JMike J Registered Users Posts: 1,029 Major grins
    edited May 31, 2013
    I eliminated 4x6's from my ski racing products 2 years ago and from my soccer stuff last year. I don't think this has cause me any problems. I've also priced my 5x7 prints pretty close to the price of an 8x10 to encourage folks to choose 8x10's over 5x7's. I've found that half of print orders will typically be for the smallest size you offer.

    For ski racing, I make 60% of my sales from selling packages of digital files. Do you offer anything like that to teams and/or individuals?
    Mike J

    Comments and constructive criticism always welcome.
    www.mikejulianaphotography.com
    Facebook
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited May 31, 2013
    Mike J wrote: »
    I eliminated 4x6's from my ski racing products 2 years ago and from my soccer stuff last year. I don't think this has cause me any problems. I've also priced my 5x7 prints pretty close to the price of an 8x10 to encourage folks to choose 8x10's over 5x7's. I've found that half of print orders will typically be for the smallest size you offer.

    For ski racing, I make 60% of my sales from selling packages of digital files. Do you offer anything like that to teams and/or individuals?

    Thanks Mike. My gallery is a Pro SmugMug gallery, and I don't see a way to package digital files.

    By the way, after sending that email with the new prices, I got an order for four 8x10s and three 5x7. Hmm!
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • Mike JMike J Registered Users Posts: 1,029 Major grins
    edited May 31, 2013
    Thanks Mike. My gallery is a Pro SmugMug gallery, and I don't see a way to package digital files...
    Yup - you can't do this via Smugmug. I make liberal use of Paypal throughout my smugmug site to get around some of these limitations.
    Mike J

    Comments and constructive criticism always welcome.
    www.mikejulianaphotography.com
    Facebook
  • ZerodogZerodog Registered Users Posts: 1,480 Major grins
    edited June 1, 2013
    I don't sell 4x6 at all. They are too low a price point and do not show off the photos. We only offer 5x7 in a 4 pack. Because of this our cheapest offering is an 8x10. In fact we only offer about 12 different options. This keeps it simple for people who can not decide.
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited June 1, 2013
    Mike J wrote: »
    Yup - you can't do this via Smugmug. I make liberal use of Paypal throughout my smugmug site to get around some of these limitations.

    I used to do packages with prints and digital files way back when I was doing karts and motocross. 4x6 plus hi res file, and 8x12 plus hi res file. I got takers. And this wasn't a problem doing so through Exposure Manager, way back in 2006-2007. ;)
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited June 2, 2013
    Well, I need to make a nice amount of money to justify the equipment, effort, the time it takes me away from my family, and the slack that my wife must pick up around the house and with the kids. For the 6 week season, I think that number is about $5000. Below $4000 it isn't worth it. So yeah, if revenue decreases due to eliminating 4x6s, then I'd either have to bring them back or hang it up. I do give back to the league too. I know I shouldn't be worried about making money, but I do know that people found the prices of the pro last year ($7 4x6, $9 5x7) to be offensive.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • GlortGlort Registered Users Posts: 1,015 Major grins
    edited June 2, 2013

    but I do know that people found the prices of the pro last year ($7 4x6, $9 5x7) to be offensive.

    Wow. Tough crowd.

    That said, I'd be offended too if I was asked to pay ( anything) for sub standard work.

    I didn't realise this is just a 6 week season. Our lasts 6 months with about a month off in the middle for Christmas.
  • orljustinorljustin Registered Users Posts: 193 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2013
    "Most people seem to like buying small prints of every picture I take of their child, rather than choosing a few favorites and printing those larger."

    Maybe there's a reason? Like they want a lot of pictures of their kid? As a parent, I would prefer to get more variety in a smaller image than pay more for less variety, for a larger image, that I'm not likely to display anywhere. How many 8x10s of my kid do I need playing baseball? A 4x6 can go in a little album or can be scrapbooked.

    Look, you're not doing anything artistic here. People are paying for someone with good equipment and the right timing to push a button at the right time. The point of buying these is to get memories of Johnny batting, not to get a 3 foot print to put on the wall, so the more they can buy in their budget at the size they want, the happier they will be. Give the customer what they want instead of being a dictator.
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2013
    Justin how about you stick to topics you actually know something about, mmkay?
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • orljustinorljustin Registered Users Posts: 193 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2013
    Justin how about you stick to topics you actually know something about, mmkay?

    I do. I'm a consumer (as well as a photographer), and I'm telling you what the public would want and is thinking. What did you disagree with?
  • orljustinorljustin Registered Users Posts: 193 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2013
    Glort wrote: »
    I'm in Business to make a living, not to make friends. Reasonable people do not begrudge you making a living because they know we all have to eat. The ones that want everything for nothing are not my customers and are therefore outside my realm of consideration.

    He already knows what will sells. He said he sells looooots of 4x6 images. He wants to sell more 5x7 for his own emotional reasons:
    "Most people seem to like buying small prints of every picture I take of their child, rather than choosing a few favorites and printing those larger."
    "I want kids and parents to have bigger prints that will be special and make the kids feel like stars."

    The business decision is to offer what the customer wants (within reason - I never said to give them away free).
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2013
    orljustin wrote: »
    I do. I'm a consumer (as well as a photographer), and I'm telling you what the public would want and is thinking. What did you disagree with?

    The fact that you think sports photography is simply having good equipment and knowing when to press the button shows you know nothing about it at all. And no, I'm not creating artwork, I'm doing something far more important and relevant - documenting sons and daughters enjoying their youth and growing up. People buy these pictures every year and cherish them. How often do people buy artwork for their homes?

    "A 4x6 can go in a little album or can be scrapbooked." So can a 5x7.

    You do not speak for the public. Your opinion of 1 has been noted.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • johngjohng Registered Users Posts: 1,658 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2013
    Sorry guys, I'm afraid Orljustin is on to something here. The OP does nice work, but the notion that people will buy a lot of 16x20 photos to matte and frame of Little Johny playing U8 baseball is not the reality. Not for these style of shots. People that hang big prints are hanging POSTERS - in their kids rooms.

    Memory mates work well. Trading Cards are a big hit (something smugmug REALLY needs to offer). Posters, when done well, seem to be big sellers for a lot of people. Things can be a bit different for some of the high-money sports. But, in general, most people just are not hanging 8x10 or larger prints of their kids in little league. If you want larger you have to be unique. Smaller fits on desktop/end table and into scrap books (which is a big destination of those small prints). Especially any parent that already has an older child - they recognize the transient nature of display for even the best little league photo.

    Now, if you're photographing the Little League World Series, that might be different.

    The market might be very different where Glort lives. But I don't know anyone in the US that is making a lot of money shooting Little League type sports and profit based solely on print sales of non 4x6 images. Again, it might be different for some other sports but when I talked to parents a few years back the feedback I got was "I have no idea where I would put an 11x14 or 16x20 photo". But a Poster can easily go up in Little Johny's room. What was a big hit were fat-head style wall clings. Unfortunately, profit margins were a bit tight. It might be that printing costs have come down - don't know.
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2013
    johng wrote: »
    Sorry guys, I'm afraid Orljustin is on to something here.

    The only thing he is on to is condescendingly stating the obvious. People like to buy 4x6s. Thanks for the news flash. Everyone knows that, it was not the question.
    The OP does nice work, but the notion that people will buy a lot of 16x20 photos to matte and frame of Little Johny playing U8 baseball is not the reality. Not for these style of shots. People that hang big prints are hanging POSTERS - in their kids rooms.

    I wasn't expecting people to buy lots of 16x20 archive prints. I just want to get people into 5x7s and larger. Personally I can't fathom not having a few big frames in my house for big sports pictures of each kid that I change out periodically, but that's me. Especially in a playroom.

    As for posters, I agree, and that is my goal of pricing a 16x20 at $24.95 - so the parents can just tack it up on their kid's bedroom wall without a frame or anything and not worry about it. Do you know of a service that prints one-off paper posters for real cheap? I just looked and zazzle.com offers paper posters, but a 16x20 costs $12.75. I suppose I could sell that for $20 but why bother?
    Memory mates work well. Trading Cards are a big hit (something smugmug REALLY needs to offer).

    I am selling memory mates through SmugMug and trading cards through another service - SmugMug seriously needs to offer trading cards, and paper posters for that matter.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2013
    I *think* when people are talking about posters, Jack, they are referring to one or multiple images arranged with some graphic design elements, not just a big photograph. Or at least that is what I am thinking.

    As per Smugmug not offering this or that or whatnot, I still can't believe they don't at least offer self-fulfill items like so many others of their competition.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • johngjohng Registered Users Posts: 1,658 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2013
    The only thing he is on to is condescendingly stating the obvious. People like to buy 4x6s. Thanks for the news flash. Everyone knows that, it was not the question.
    As an objective outsider I disagree. He said something you didn't want to hear but the tone of his posts was no more condescending than your posts or Glorts in this thread.
    Personally I can't fathom not having a few big frames in my house for big sports pictures of each kid that I change out periodically, but that's me. Especially in a playroom.
    That is great. All I can say is, my experience shooting sports for a side business indicated that for these types of sports your viewpoint was the exception, not the rule.
    As for posters, I agree, and that is my goal of pricing a 16x20 at $24.95 - so the parents can just tack it up on their kid's bedroom wall without a frame or anything and not worry about it.
    The important thing here is - are you constructing an image that looks like a poster or just expecting them to print off a normal print that size? For example, here's a recent thread showing a very good poster. Are you creating images like this?
    http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=232394&highlight=poster
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2013
    johng wrote: »
    As an objective outsider I disagree. He said something you didn't want to hear but the tone of his posts was no more condescending than your posts or Glorts in this thread.

    Please let me know where I have been condescending to another forum member in this thread, other than where I returned Justin's attitude in kind. I don't take exception to him pointing out the fact that people like 4x6s, other than it's obvious, I take exception to him putting down sports photography as easy and frivolous, and likening professional photographers to dictators.
    That is great. All I can say is, my experience shooting sports for a side business indicated that for these types of sports your viewpoint was the exception, not the rule.

    Oh I have learned that in spades. I just don't understand it. I want my kids to feel like stars, so I have posters of them doing their best at the things they love. I don't know why any parent wouldn't do the same, given the opportunity. Guess I must be father of the year.
    The important thing here is - are you constructing an image that looks like a poster or just expecting them to print off a normal print that size? For example, here's a recent thread showing a very good poster. Are you creating images like this?
    http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=232394&highlight=poster

    I do offer custom posters like that, as well as magazine covers, but at a significant premium. I'm not set up to do them in batches, they're one-offs by hand. What does a poster like that typically sell for?
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2013
    Oh I have learned that in spades. I just don't understand it. I want my kids to feel like stars, so I have posters of them doing their best at the things they love. I don't know why any parent wouldn't do the same, given the opportunity. Guess I must be father of the year.\

    You see, THAT to me is condescending.
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • johngjohng Registered Users Posts: 1,658 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2013
    Jack - I think you need to step back and gain some perspective on the images you're providing. This is a nice sportrait -indicative of a lot of sportraits most sports photographers provide. Now, compare that image to a good senior portrait or studio or site portrait where the photographer is dedicating a session to a subject. As for documenting the growth of the subject - where does the moment below stack against the image the parent takes of their child riding his/her bike for the first time?
    5D3_5069-M.jpg

    I think your view of the importance of the action sports photo of the typical kid in youth baseball is not the view of the general public. Yes, I know shooting sports is more difficult than the other poster indicated. But, to the average consumer, the importance of that photo just isn't there. As the guy you're railing against pointed out - he is a parent. His views are completely relevant. The fact that many parents think like they do is an important thing to know.
  • orljustinorljustin Registered Users Posts: 193 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2013
    The fact that you think sports photography is simply having good equipment and knowing when to press the button shows you know nothing about it at all.

    I don't think I was condescending at all. You just didn't like the message.

    I'd also disagree with your statement above. As a photographer, you stand somewhere others can't, set the equipment for the current situation, and push the button when the time is right and the person is in frame. That gives you your product. You're not posing anyone, you're not setting up lights, you're not directing an assistant, you have no control over the environment or subject, etc. You're essentially documenting something that is going on, and you may assign more emotion to that situation then the "normal" parent which is why you're upset that anyone would want a 4x6 when they could have a slightly bigger printed image.
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2013
    mercphoto wrote: »
    You see, THAT to me is condescending.

    Towards who? If anything it was sarcastic towards myself, as I am probably not father of the year!

    John - sigh... we are getting way off topic. Mostly I just want people to buy more 5x7s. I don't see how a 5x7 is more difficult to scrapbook, so I'd like to start my print sizes there - if those with more experience think this would be advisable.
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
  • WachelWachel Registered Users Posts: 448 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2013
    Towards who? If anything it was sarcastic towards myself, as I am probably not father of the year!

    John - sigh... we are getting way off topic. Mostly I just want people to buy more 5x7s. I don't see how a 5x7 is more difficult to scrapbook, so I'd like to start my print sizes there - if those with more experience think this would be advisable.


    jmphotocraft (Jack),

    Honestly, I have to agree with the others here. As a parent I would want the 4x6 or a digital file. As a photographer I try to provide what the client wants at a price that I can profit from. In my mind I am here to serve the client as long as I can do it in a manner that is profitable for me. The client is always right...as long as I can make a profit.

    Also, you wanted someone to point out where you have been condescending in this thread. Most of your replies have been. I'm not trying to be a jerk but you seem very defensive to any view that isn't the same as yours.

    With all of that said...it is your business and you need to do what you feel if right for you. None of our opinions really matter in the end.

    Best of luck to you.
    Michael

    <Insert some profound quote here to try and seem like a deep thinker>

    Michael Wachel Photography

    Facebook
  • Gary752Gary752 Registered Users Posts: 934 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2013
    I shot some little league games last year and didn't sell many prints at all. What did sell was a slide show on DVD of a special event where they took two local teams to Williamsport to play a game on the field that they play the little league world series on. I originally made 1 DVD for the coach that organized the event, and he loved it so much he told every one involved, and ended up selling close to 40 more DVDs. They are doing it again this year, in 2 weeks, and I'm planning on doing the same thing again.

    GaryB
    GaryB
    “The single most important component of a camera is the twelve inches behind it!” - Ansel Adams
  • jmphotocraftjmphotocraft Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
    edited June 3, 2013
    Wachel wrote: »
    Also, you wanted someone to point out where you have been condescending in this thread. Most of your replies have been. I'm not trying to be a jerk but you seem very defensive to any view that isn't the same as yours.

    Example please. Posts 1, 5, 6, 9, 15... I'm not seeing it.

    After that I responded in kind to someone saying sports photography is easy and unimportant. I'm not allowed to be offended by that?
    -Jack

    An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
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