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Aggressive Cropping?
jmphotocraft
Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
I'm the official photographer for my town's Little League. Up until just recently I would leave room for the customer to be able to choose different print sizes and crop accordingly. This is my fourth year doing this, and I've found that the vast majority of my sales are 4x6" followed by 5x7" a distant 2nd. 8x10"s are rare and I might get one or two orders a season for anything larger. This bothers me because I think a lot of my shots should be posters, and I'm confident in the quality of all the shots I publish for sale.
So I'm trying something new - I'm aggressively cropping many shots to a 5:7 or 4:5 aspect ratio and leaving no room to be able to print a 4x6" without cutting off body parts. Of course I only do this if it makes sense for the image. The idea is to encourage parents to print bigger. I don't care as much about the extra few dollars as I want the kids to have something nice that makes them look and feel like stars. I don't have results to report yet as I just started doing this.
What do you think? Surely other have tried or are doing this? I also wonder if parents/players are MORE inclined to buy a photo if their first impression of it is with a compelling, tight crop rather than a loose one. I think a lot of parents, perhaps even most, don't realize that you can crop an image. Here's an example of what I'm talking about:
So I'm trying something new - I'm aggressively cropping many shots to a 5:7 or 4:5 aspect ratio and leaving no room to be able to print a 4x6" without cutting off body parts. Of course I only do this if it makes sense for the image. The idea is to encourage parents to print bigger. I don't care as much about the extra few dollars as I want the kids to have something nice that makes them look and feel like stars. I don't have results to report yet as I just started doing this.
What do you think? Surely other have tried or are doing this? I also wonder if parents/players are MORE inclined to buy a photo if their first impression of it is with a compelling, tight crop rather than a loose one. I think a lot of parents, perhaps even most, don't realize that you can crop an image. Here's an example of what I'm talking about:
-Jack
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
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How about an experiment. Price 4x6 and 5x7 identically and see if the bigger prints sell better?
Way back when I was doing racing photography I saw the same thing - lots of 4x6 sales, some 5x7, a small number of 8x10, and a few poster sized prints.
A former sports shooter
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I guess I would say the latter more than the former. My 4x6s are $3.95 and my 5x7s are $5.95. But I don't think 5x7s are any less convenient to put in albums.
Maybe next year, but I'm not going to price my 5x7s any lower, and I'm afraid a 50% price increase on 4x6s would go over like a fart in church. I have been told by some people that they appreciate the low price on 4x6s because they like to buy a lot of different shots. So that's part of it.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
You know I have been shooting barrel racing/equine stuff for a couple of years. I always have a helper at my table and view and print onsite. (or atleast view/order) Anyway Yesterday I didn't have my helper so I asked a friend if she knew any teenagers that could man my table and help customers. She said my Aunt Polly might be able to. I am now in love with Aunt Polly(Aunt Polly is a customer as well)! I sell this 13x19 collage poster. I am lucky if I sell 1 at a race. So back to Aunt Polly, She sold 6 or 7 of them last night. That has never ever happened before. How did she do it. She showed it to everyone that was at the booth (she was grabbing people as they went by as well) and told them it is so hard to find 3 great shots look at this awesome poster that you can hang on your wall. You should buy one. The girl that was on the demo poster was there as well and she came by the booth later in the day and said that we made her famous because she would be walking around and people would say hey your the person on the poster.
www.jonbakerphotography.com
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
www.jonbakerphotography.com
Yeah, I've thought of that. I wouldn't be able to do it now, in the middle of my shooting and selling season. For next season I would need committee approval and I don't think they'd go for it. Glad to hear it worked ok for you, but I'd be very nervous about that as 4x6s are my top seller by a significant margin. This is my home town and my kids are in the league. I have to walk a fine line between "doing something nice for" and "making money off of" my community. I guess for now I'm not trying to eliminate 4x6s, but to encourage more 5x7s and up.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
I actually may be tempted to go the other way--don't offer 5x7. Lots of effort cropping to not make sales. Blow out the 4x6's ("Buy 3 get one free")and then try to upsell those folks on larger prints or even the collage/poster. Probably a better use of your time.
Your pictures are absolutely top quality. They are lucky to have you, now find a good sales girl that can talk those moms into springing for something bigger. One mom on the team bites, then you deliver it to her in the stands in front of the others and take it out and hand it to her--10 more sales guaranteed!
It's so ironic that we buy this equipment capable of making 24x36" posters, only to sell 4x6"s. I suppose I should go back to doing this job with a 7D and a 70-200/4! But man I love my 5D3 and 300/2.8. And people know when they see me with it, that I alone deserve to be on the field, and that there will be no better photos taken of their child, bar none.
Oh well, closing in on net $6k for the season...
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
My 2 cents; I think it may hurt you in the long run. While WE care about cropping off body parts, our customers don't care as much. I'm guessing that they will still order 4x6s. And the pics of yours that they show to friends and family will not be as good as they should be because of the cropped body parts.
I understand wanting customers to order bigger prints to hang on the wall, been there, done that. Many of us have. I don't think you should try to force this on your customers. 4x6s were 90% of my sales as well, thats just how it is. I accepted it, and raised my price to $6. I know you can't raise prices in mid season.
http://www.knippixels.com
My two cents is to use cropping to your advantage by providing multiple choices of one photo with the better "choice" being the larger size. Most customers have no to little knowledge of 35mm/digital ratios, cropping and size comparisons. I've found that the customers I've worked with want a great buy with associated sizes/prices being secondary. The customer will buy whatever photo they want regardless of the size and price points if it is THE photo they want of the subject they want. This technique creates more work but for me also increased sales of various sizes too.
Since when at shows I print all my own inventory , I offer prints at wallet size, 4x6, 5x7, 8x10, 11x14 and select ones at sizes up to and including 24x36 poster size. None sell better than the others based on size but that is because the customer will rarely if ever find the "same cropping" in more than one size. Same photo = yes, same crop = no
Examples of one photo cropped two different ways <noted that the photo is not great quality and sample only and I've downsized both at 75% for posting>:
4x6
5x7
Both of these would likely sell depending on whether a person is looking for a portrait of a lion or mother lion ready to nurse. Both gives the purchaser a good choice. That's how my non-online business sales are handled. Online, now that is a completely different business model....for another time....
Works for me.<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/clap.gif" border="0" alt="" >
Point taken, nipprdog. I think this is reason enough to forget this idea.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Las Cruces Photographer / Las Cruces Wedding Photographer
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The crop closely fitted the frame size and I had sample prints around showing how images could be cropped to get the subject closer. More often than not it was impossible to fill the frame with what we were shooting even with the 400mm lenses. It was impossible to crop all the pics we took before we uploaded them to the stations, especially when we were shooting 4 rings. Obviously the sample crop signs got noticed or people did know enough to understand we could pull the subjects in closer than what they saw. Often people would ask to see the images zoomed in on our monitors before purchasing to see which of their selections would look better or showed more detail.
Jm,
I don't want to sound too forceful to my method of doing things, but in honesty I am utterly amazed that someone of your skill and quality level offers 6x4's at all. I can't think of a better way to kill the impact and wow factor of your work any more efficiently than printing it at that horrid size.
I make no bones I have a deep seated disdain and hatred of 6/4s when offered by professionals.
It's clear looking at your images just on screen that they have great vibrant colour, great detail, you get the expressions of the kids and just do an outstanding job.
To minimise all those great qualities you sweat to capture into a pissant postcard size 6x4 to me just seems a crying shame.
Apart from that, I can think of no better way of devaluing your work than to reduce it to the same size and appearance of what the local print joint sells for 12 C or less per copy. It takes away so much of the difference between a professionals work and equates it exactly with what the clients get from wartblart when they bother to get any of their own images printed, or worse still, when they print their own.
The only deviation I had from doing the 8x12s was to do 2 6x8's on a page for the same price. That was purely by request only and it was not on our pricelists or samples.
I don't think we lost any worthwhile amount of sales if any at all by only offering the one, large size print. We had a number of clients that would buy multiple prints from us at every event we were at and plenty that would buy 1-2 even 3 weekends in a row.
I can remember 2 occasions in 3.5 years where someone even asked about 6x4's because they wanted them for scrapbooking. They were more than happy to pay the same price so I was happy to print the pics off for them on a promise they told no one we did it. :0)
For the corporate functions and charity balls I do, I have always offered 5x7's. We get great feedback on that and people love the larger size that they realise shows more detail and makes for a more impressive print.
On one gig last year at the suggestion of the organiser, we did 6x8's and upped our pricing from $15 for the 5x7 to $20 for the 6x8. The only comments we got were how impressive the big photos were and that people were amazed we had them printed ready to take home.
The only comment on price was how much could we do for 5 copies of the same image? No one balked at price and several actually expressed surprise we were " Only" charging that much. Music to your ears when you just upped the price and people are still telling you it's good value!
The kicker was the 6x8 paper costs me less than 5x7. I buy the 8x12 paper 3000 sheets at a time and get a great price on it. I simply put it through the Guillotine which I made a guide for so you just jam it in and cut and don't have to line anything up. I can cut up 300 sheets in minutes and it costs me 1/7th what I was paying for a sheet of precut 5x7.
The events we have done subsequently have all been done with 6x8 at the higher price and the feedback has been the same as the first time.
I agree wholeheartedly with jbaker. When you are ready, you just don't offer the horrible miniatures anymore.
End of story.
The hardest thing about saying no is getting over your own fear of doing it. Clients don't question or complain about it nearly as much as you think before you have done it and having done it once, you learn what a valuable skill it can be in future.
In the other event work I do, I offer packages like school photos of multiple prints on an 8x12 sheet.
We crop them initially to 8x12 proportions then the software crops it from there but I do leave a small allowance whilst still getting the images nice and tight.
People ask if they can just get the one postcard print and I tell them yes they can, we can cut it off the layout for them. Next question is how much and I tell them the same price as the sheet layout. When they question it I say we are not set up to do miniature pics and costs me the same to print part of the paper and throw the rest away as to print a full size print or fill the paper with multiples.
I have heard grumbles from those looking to get out of it more cheaply but I have NEVER had anyone walk away. At worst they have asked if they could get 2 kids on the one layout which I also decline but then offer the second sheet at a price they can't refuse and wins their gratitude.
In trying to push 5x7's, I don't think you will have a lot of success while you offer the amateur size UNLESS as suggested, you price them the same. When people have asked me for smaller sizes and I have told them they cost the same, I tell them Miniaturization and making things compact is more expensive than comparable larger products and give them a big smile. They never argue.
Clients have the mindset that bigger is more valuable and costs more in photos because thats the way it has always been. I'm not sure how many postcard prints you sell but I work to a limited market.
There is no way I could get $20 for a 6x4 like I do without hesitation for the 6/8.
Pricing rules dictate that to increase your profits or make your targets, there are only 3 things you can do.
Sell to more people, sell more to the same people or sell at a higher price.
There are only so many people at these events or in a sports club so in order to make the returns I want from the job, the first option is out. The second is limited because although we do sell multiple images to people with shots with friends etc, that has a limit as well.
That leaves the 3rd option as being the most applicable.
There is no way I am going to make the money/ profits I do out of events selling 6/4s at the price I could get for them. People simply aren't going to buy more prints because they are cheaper and in the rare occasions they would, there is no way on earth they are going to buy the more than double it would take all things considered in order for me to make more profit than I do with the larger size.
The difference between the cost of buying 6/4 paper and 5/7-6/8 paper is insignificant because the markup you can put on the respective sizes blows the difference out of the water.
I just realised I am thinking wholly of my own thing where I print myself but if you are sending your work to a lab, the exact same thing applies. A 6/4 is 50 c and a 5x7 is .75 or whatever. You might get $10, probably less for the little one but would have no trouble pulling $15 or better for the larger one.
Go up to 8x12 and the profit margin widens again as well you know. I got $30 for a standard print with the horses and the kid events I do now, $35 with borders, name of the event etc and $40 for an 8x12 mag cover layout.
One thing I have for my T&I work is 30x40" posters with the package layouts printed actual size and another poster with the individual print sizes. Have a full size 30x40 with the smaller sizes overlayed in the corner and a 5x7 looks like a postage stamp!
Doing a display layout similar to this may help up your order sizes. I'd definitely be putting up a monster print because even if you never sell one ( and I have sold about 6 now for $150 a throw) they just blow people away and make the other sizes look basically lame in comparison. The kids see it anad are always going to badger the parents for a big poster like that one. I tell them at very least they are going to save a litre of paint and 20 minutes next time they redecorate their bedroom because they don't have to bother about where the photo goes. :0)
Getting back to your cropping question, by eliminating one size from your offerings, you are also going to make your cropping less of an issue. A quick look at PS shows the crop ratio between 8x12 and 5x7's is near as dammit and any loss of " Body parts" would be negligible and inconsequential as it's going to be a height rather than width issue.
Sorry for the typically long winded response but I would really encourage you to get rid of the 6x4's at the first possible opportunity.
I really think you are doing a disservice to your work, your profits and your clients by having the damn things available. I also think that bigger print sizes where people can actually see the quality of your work will give it greater value and esteem amongst your clients and add to your sales volume in itself.
People will buy what you offer.
Don't offer postage stamps and they will buy the decent sizes you do have available.
I agree completely that 4x6s devalue my work, but I sell so damn many of them it would be a big leap of faith to get rid of them. I even had one customer/friend proudly show me the framed pitching sequence of 4x6s on their wall in their home. It took up more wall space than a 16x20 would have! It makes me think these people just don't value photography like we do. But then I have to remind myself that for this many people to go to the effort to plunk down a pre-order in advance, and then go back and redeem their coupon and order a whole mess of 4x6s is a vote of confidence in my work. I also remind myself that even at 4x6 my photos are still clearly better than anything any other parent is taking, because I am the only one allowed inside the fence, I have the best camera in town, and I know what I'm doing.
People also order quite a few 4x6s when they order. They'll buy one or two of every shot I got of their child, rather than picking one or two favorites and printing those big. Some people go bananas like this - had a recent order from a client who had pre-paid for a $25 print credit. They ended up spending $150 on doubles of 15 different 4x6s and 3 different 5x7s - and the 5x7s were team shots. That's an extreme case, but you get the idea.
I suppose I could make a case to the committee for doing away with 4x6s for next year because my 5x7s are only $5.95. Last year when I took the year off and a pro agency shot the league, their price for a 4x6 was $7.00, and their photos were shite.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
In all sincerity, this is a foreign concept to me and one I have trouble getting my head around.
Being that it is my job and income, I have always strived to get the max returns out of anything I have done.
I shot my own kids baseball and soccer clubs many times and approached it the same way I would any other, ie to make max profits. -I- didn't get any flack over that, people just seemed happy to get a quality product at what most considered a fair if not cheap price.
Obviously your situation is different and one I have no experience in.
I guess you are more charitable, making better money and have a deeper love of photography than I do. To me work is work and what you are doing seems a lot of work and effort. I envy your ability to still enjoy it as you must do. Certainly the people in your league are bloody lucky to have someone of your ability and passion shooting their kids.
Yeah, this I totally understand. It's very hard to say no to what clients want and buy.... till you do it and see that it doesn't bring the world to an end and the fallout is in fact minor to insignificant.
When I was doing the horse events, I had a mentor from the states tell me a number of things and initially it was hard to make the decision to follow the advice. IT's the old thing, " It might work for him but my clients are different" and all that rubbish.
I have to admit, initially I followed what he said through having something go wrong and doing as he suggested as the plan B fall back. Every single thing I did went without a hitch or a murmur so then, with the support of the family whom had also been made believers of, It was almost laughable.
If Hammy said do it, we did without even thinking and we NEVER went wrong, even when in the back of our minds we still had that shred of insecurity. I guess there is a reason the guy covers some of the biggest events in the world and covers events internationally!
I have proven that people will buy what you sell IF it represents value to them. The price itself is irrelevant.
Through a stuff up with one of the country events I did, the organisers booked myself and another shooter. Neither of us were willing to leave because we both had traveled a long way and incurred expenses already. We set up not 30 Ft from each other. I had 4 Shooters covering the rings, the other guy was trying to cover 6 rings all on his own and shooting them all at the same time no less.
His prices were 30% less than mine on the same size print and he did 5x7's where we only did the 8x12's. We lost count of how many times we over heard or were told that we were more expensive than the other guy but our photos were worth it.
I don't know how much the other guy sold, honestly I was to busy to pay much attention. I made exactly what I expected to so whatever he made was bonus for him.
It's the same as when I bought a car for my wife last year.
I chose one and when I got to the place I saw another one that was $2k more.
The thing was far better equipped, newer, had more miles and loads of gravel rash on the bonnet but was by far the better value buy.
So I paid the $2k extra and got it. I ripped the bonnet and front bumper off, spent a couple of hundred on paint and supplies re- spraying them and the thing is worth even more now and an infinitely better buy than the one I was going to get.
It wasn't the price that was the concern, it was what I got for it.
I have found that is the exact same thing with people buying photos.
You -might- loose the very odd sale, I loose a couple at most gigs with the work I do now but the cost of lowering my prices to get those totally insignificant price focused sales is something that you don't have to think about. As it is, 25% of clients will tell us our prices are great/ cheap, 25% will tell us we are expensive ( but still buy) and the rest don't say anything at all and just hand over the Credit card.
I had the same thing selling 8x12's. Most bought a single print, many bought 2-3 and some bought hundreds of dollars worth every time we saw them.
I really believe and can't state strongly enough, that doing away with postage stamps will INCREASE your sales and the value and appreciation of your work.
I'll guarantee that some people will question or bitch about it, but I'll also guarantee that the numbers of pics you will sell will only vary by increasing if the numbers move at all.
ONe thing I have had over the years ( and only got from wedding or portrait/ glam work rather than sports/ events ) is people saying " If the prices were lower/ cheaper, we would have bought more".
I am totally blunt in my reply to the stupidity and sarcasm of that statement.
I look them straight in the eye and say " Obviously you would have but you would have still spent the same amount of money and I'd have to do more work, take up more of my time and make less money doing it." Never have I had a come back to that one.
Yikes!
If your 5/7's are 6 bux, I'm scared to think how little you are giving away the postage stamps for!
Just so different to my own greedy, mercenary outlook.
As far as the committee goes, your statement of " Make a case" seems odd to me.
YOU are the one out there busting your chops to give them top level work at tiddly wink prices, it's not up to them to dictate what products and prices you offer.
If they don't like you not offering postage stamps, ( without consulting them or getting their approval for your business matters) let them go back to the other pelicans that were offering postcards for more than your 5/7's and doing crap work.
No skin off your nose. You can still shoot your own kids and enjoy watching them and have more time for them or yourself when you get home.
I don't know the situation or how things work in your situation but I can only say that if it were me, I'd just be putting in my proposal or what ever you do next year sans the Postage stamps. If they said anything, I'd be saying you no longer offer that size because it represents poor value economically and aesthetically to the parents and leave it at that.
For whatever reasons you do this, it's not anyone elses business to dictate to you how you run yours and if they think it is, they would be extremely disappointed at the outcome of their position if they tried it on me.
So why could you possibly have a problem getting rid of the postage stamps when the 5/7's you are going to replace them with are cheaper that what they were paying anyway and your work is outstanding?
My 4x6s are $3.95 by the way. Next year, no more!
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
I remember you posting that but I forgot about it.
I tried shooting only by booking and couldn't come close to getting it to fly. The fact you have so successfully tells me that the parents value your work highly and will do what's needed to get it.
If you can get that one across the line, I don't think dropping a print size is even going to show up as a blip on the Radar. You have got the clients playing the game your way, they will follow whatever lead you take.
Man you must sell a lot of postage stamps at those prices to make the returns you do.
I can only imagine the time and workload of filling all those orders and even that scares me to death.
You are definitely one of a kind that's for sure!
SmugMug Pro account handles all the fulfillment.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
I second the pricing 4x6 and 5x7 equally. for my portraits I now price 5x7 and 8x10 the same. people still choose 5x7's though which is a bit weird but not everyone wants pictures for a wall.
Have you tried offering higher end items? Perhaps books filled with pics of their kids? 10 pages for a good profit margin to make it worth while.
I understand 8x10s not selling, wall space is at a premium.
I sell T&I composites (8x10") for $18.95, magazine covers (8x12") for $35, and sets of 16 trading cards for $25. The cards and composites are popular, covers are not.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
However slashing prices on 8x10s and larger is having some effect. People are ordering them now.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
If they query the $1 up / down scenario, show them the 300 2.8 (if not already seen) and suggest they don't grow on trees / come from thrift shops and you bought same to provide an even better service ... for them ... and got a better deal or some such on the larger paper.
pp
Flickr
Do you have poster sized displays to show that off?
As a parent *fairly new one for almost 2 years* if my son were to play sports I dont know how many larger pictures I would be buying. remember people love baseball cards *well they did 20 years ago* and they are smaller than a 4x6. I doubt those photogs are upset that their work is being printed as a 2x3. Im not quite sure I would want a poster print for my son unless the quality really was espn quality.
Now if they offered a 6x9 brag book from millers or something similar with 10 to 20 great shots of the team then that would be more interesting. It would document my son, his friends and maybe even have some stats in the back. Wit the books starting at $20 from the lab and processing time the book may be a bit of an investment. But if you were to get a good team shot and pics of each kid and mark it up a bit for a fundraiser then that may compel them to sell it or buy it for you.
also as a dad with a "nice camera" I would be tempted to get my own shots anyways, im the only pro that has ever photographed my son.
That is an idea I'm considering. I think I'd have to go to $4.95 for both.
Oh yeah, I totally get that as that used to be me. Go for it, doesn't bother me. However in my situation I'm the only person with a camera allowed inside the fence, and I have the best equipment in town, and dare I say the most skill.
With a little sleuthing you could have found it on your own, but here:
http://jmphotocraft.smugmug.com/FalmouthLittleLeague2013/Majors-Baseball/Cubs/
Click the "Buy" button to see the menu. My prices are low compared to a full time pro, but I recently slashed prices on 8x10s and larger, and now people are finally buying them. They weren't before.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.