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prints, downloads, coupons and what sells?
Painterskip
Registered Users Posts: 40 Big grins
It was suggested that I ask my question over here. I may have posted the original in the wrong forum.
It concerns the discussion (debate) of whether to sell prints or downloads.
After reading several of the threads in this forum, it dawned on me that in this day and age, many more people are probably more apt to want to post photos on their FaceBook page rather than hang 8x10s on their walls. And once I thought about that, I'm the same way. Sure, every once in awhile we will buy a photo package from school, but it's an almost daily occurrence to post picture on FB.
I've been taking photos at my daughter's dance studio for a few years and after considering the ideas above, re FaceBook vs prints, I came up with a plan. Offer free FB sized downloads to those customers that DO buy prints. But how? That's my question....I think I know the answer...I'll have to do that manually, which is not what I want to do. So maybe someone has an idea of how I can offer something like the following:
Spending $75.00 on prints and receive 5 (or 10) free FaceBook sized downloads. By that I mean the .3 mp sized images. WITH a printmark. Purchased prints would not have printmarks.
In this way they can 'share' any images they choose and I'm sure that any prints made will look good, as opposed to selling only downloads and knowing that they'll take the files to WalMart and be disappointed.
SO how can I do this without ME having to slosh through 2500 file numbers everytime someone receives 5 or 10 free downloads. A separate gallery? Maybe the 5 free downloads would come in the form of a $5.00 credit, good only in one gallery?
It concerns the discussion (debate) of whether to sell prints or downloads.
After reading several of the threads in this forum, it dawned on me that in this day and age, many more people are probably more apt to want to post photos on their FaceBook page rather than hang 8x10s on their walls. And once I thought about that, I'm the same way. Sure, every once in awhile we will buy a photo package from school, but it's an almost daily occurrence to post picture on FB.
I've been taking photos at my daughter's dance studio for a few years and after considering the ideas above, re FaceBook vs prints, I came up with a plan. Offer free FB sized downloads to those customers that DO buy prints. But how? That's my question....I think I know the answer...I'll have to do that manually, which is not what I want to do. So maybe someone has an idea of how I can offer something like the following:
Spending $75.00 on prints and receive 5 (or 10) free FaceBook sized downloads. By that I mean the .3 mp sized images. WITH a printmark. Purchased prints would not have printmarks.
In this way they can 'share' any images they choose and I'm sure that any prints made will look good, as opposed to selling only downloads and knowing that they'll take the files to WalMart and be disappointed.
SO how can I do this without ME having to slosh through 2500 file numbers everytime someone receives 5 or 10 free downloads. A separate gallery? Maybe the 5 free downloads would come in the form of a $5.00 credit, good only in one gallery?
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This will require some marketing effort in advance on your part. After four years of shooting little league baseball, trying several different methods, I'm convinced this is the only way to go if you can't do on-site printing.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
I sort of did what you suggested. With a twist. I charged a sitting fee if they wanted their kid photographed alone and since dancers typically have anywhere from one to nine or more costumes, I charged extra for that. The sitting fee included one free photo of my choice, which I think I'll print in house. I may change my mind on that:-) Thinking back, I should have given away a few digital images with the sitting fees. I may do that next year.
However, out of about 80 kids, several of whom posed multiple times, I had about 60 of the parents pay sitting fees. Pre-order was offered but only six parents took advantage of that. I'm hoping that many of those that didn't pre-order will now order prints. I know some will...most will not.
Another thing I noticed is that the kids want the pics and don't even care if there's a watermark right across the entire photo...they'll do a screen shot with their smart phone and post the watermarked image on FB or InstaGram. So I feel I need to make it very convenient for them to acquire the FB sized digital photos in addition to purchasing at least a few prints.
www.emurals.com
www.thesarasotamuralist.blogspot.com
Cool. This is basically a pre-pay model.
Seems a little odd. Something I've learned over the years is that people see themselves and their children differently than everyone else does. My favorite few shots out of a portrait session are often different than the client's.
I would recommend charging an appropriate sitting fee and giving away unlimited web-size images.
60 out of 80 is good. Do I understand correctly? Sitting fee is charged on the spot at the event, and your pre-order is done in advance somehow? Either way, this is much more effective than shooting on spec for nothing and praying for paid print/download orders afterwards. If you want to increase pre-orders you'll have to do some marketing - email and posters at the facility well in advance, with an email reminder the day before.
Correct, most will not. They will simply enjoy/share them online, watermark and all, and then they're done with them. No need to buy after that. (I hope these people will be sorry come wedding time when they have nothing but smartphone shite for the slideshow!!)
Correct again. So make your watermark attractive and put your URL in it. Don't fight this, make all the images freely downloadable at web size. If you've charged an appropriate sitting fee or pre-pay fee, this won't matter.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
I'm not buying anything from you that has any mark plastered on it. I'm not here to advertise for you, and I don't want your name on the images I want to display.
Actually, you are wrong about that. Not to mention that I'm not trying to sell to you in particular. If you had read my post, you would have seen that it's been my experience that they don't care about watermarks even if it covers the subject to some degree. Also, they are NOT buying the images with print marks. They would be free. So if they want free, they have to accept a little advertising by not only the photographer but also the dance studio. And again, it's been my experience that they don't mind that.
www.emurals.com
www.thesarasotamuralist.blogspot.com
That's why photograhers should give web-sized, tastefully branded photos away for free. People don't want to pay for watermarked images, but if a photographer displays watermarked proofs online with the intent of selling mark-free downloads and prints, a lot of people will use (steal) the watermarked proofs and then never feel a need to buy anything. That's why photographers need to evolve to a pre-paid business model.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
I understand what you mean about seeing your kids differently than others. However, I was attempting to avoid having to dig through 2000 or so photos to look for a handful images that I'm giving away. I did that last year and it was a nightmare with people sending me lists of images to print. I didn't like that and maybe (probably) I need to work on my 'workflow habits'. OTOH, if they order prints, that's where they get to pick and choose whatever photos they like. And I don't have to be involved.
What you said about people being sorry come wedding time when all they have are bad smartphone photos. Bingo! That's been a pet peeve of mine for a couple years. Even the dance studio owner tries to post pics she took with her iPhone and they are terrible. And the iPhone takes fairly decent pics, if you take the time to do it right. Many people do not.
Regarding charging a sitting fee and then giving away the digital images. Maybe I'll do that once I nail down my dance studio set up. The last two years I spent way too much time in post editing and would not have wanted many of the images to be seen 'as is'. Mostly due to the backdrops I used. Two years ago, it was a 10' x 20' off-white muslin. With a lot of wrinkles:-) Turned out great after some Photoshop work. This year I used 9' wide seamless paper. WHat I need is a cyclorama:-)
And not to drag this out but when you think about what the customers want, it's not always a stack of photos. If it were me, as a dance dad, I'd opt for medium res digital files to post and then have a book made of the entire season. But those are time consuming to create, IF you do it right. And I hate not doing things right:-) So for me to offer books....I think the price might be too high for some people. But that's another discussion I guess...
www.emurals.com
www.thesarasotamuralist.blogspot.com
I agree that people don't want to pay for watermarked images. Why would they? I was trying to figure out a way for people to sort of 'have their cake and eat it too' by receiving free digital downloads, but only if they first buy some prints. Otherwise, I'd be taking photos for free.
What I'd like to do is ultimately be set up so that the only thing my photos might need would be cropping. And then I could do print on demand right at the photo shoot. Or better yet, at the recital.
www.emurals.com
www.thesarasotamuralist.blogspot.com
People want Digital pics these days for more than facewaste so why not offer a product to fill the niche you have identified? It seems you are saying the demand is for digital but in effect you are still pushing prints and only using the digital as an incentive to sell prints.
The last few gigs I have done have seen tremendous success with offering full res images on USB sticks. The clients are just lapping them up and they are an easier sell and the clients happily spend well above the average they ever did with prints. On the backend, putting images on USB is soooo much easier than disk or printing.
Clients seem to hold an overly high value on $5 usb drives and think they are getting a bargain just on those.
I sell and print onsite for a couple of markets and it's no big deal. If you have actions set up in PS, the only thing you need do manually is your cropping, hit an F key and the prints/ package come out from there. I do events up to 1000 people and we do over 300 5x7 prints in a night. We sell on spec so generally the biggest problem is making sure we have enough table space to lay them all out.
That said, Putting images on a USB stick is so much easier and faster still. I'm selling these in bundles basically, 1-5 images is $40-50 ( depending n the gig) , 5-10 is 75 and 10 plus is $100.
Even if you only got $40 out of 50 Clients, that's $2k for a days work which is nice and very achievable money.
ATM I don't sell as many of the 100 bundles as the lower ones simply because in what I do it's hard to get 10+ different and worthwhile shots of the same subject.
Dance would be a walk in the park however. Full length, Half, Cutsie Head shot, Couple of different poses for each, you have a heap to sell every outfit.
There is no reason why you can't print onsite and do nothing more to the images than crop them. That's all I do!
You are shooting a studio type setup so it's all in the prep. Set up, get your lighting spot on, tweak colour balance if you have to and what else is there to do other than produce and sell the images?
If you are one of these people that think every image has to be photofiddled to your idea of perfection and can't let an image be seen unless you have mucked about with it for 30 min, this isn't the sport for you. This works on fast and High volume not indulging ones ego producing the finest art ever photo fiddled into existence like many seem to think is a requirement these days.
If you are going to offer the USB stick ( or at least try them) make sure to put up some signage letting the clients know. I just design 20x30" posters in PS and have them printed and laminated and they work well. cost me $30 all up at the office supply warehouse. I'm also getting some of those stand up banners done because you can't have too much signage these days.
Another thing I found effective was a small desktop A3 Size roll up banner. I put the prices on that as it's only $20 and sits on the desk where I can point to it when people garp around and ask if I have a price list. Yes madam, right here. Open your eyes and you'll be able to see it perfectly!
Even though I have created my own printing factory with more printers and equipment than I could pole vault over, i'm definitely going to be pushing towards the digi image only model.
It's easier, cheaper to produce, faster, less gear to carry around by a mile and most importantly, it's promotable and has high value to the clients.
I did read your post. And they aren't "free". Again, I quote:
"Spending $75.00 on prints and receive 5 (or 10) free FaceBook sized downloads."
$75 gets you prints and watermarked images. I don't want watermarked images. And read "I" as "Joe Customer". Other people would prefer not to display watermarked images, but of course, if you only give them one choice, they will take what they can get. That's not being customer-centric. And it's making me advertise for you, which I'm not interested in doing.
Wow. Sometimes it takes someone else to help open your eyes. You're right. I have identified what my clients want and I'm not providing that, at least in a way that helps me.
Re 'it's all in the prep'. This has been my downfall so far. That's why I mentioned in my last post that I needed a cyclorama so that I would not have to perform so much post editing. I've been stupid in that I didn't think everything through before the photo shoot. So this year I end up using Photoshop to remove the edge where the floor and backdrop meet. It bothered me. And there again, it probably would not have bothered my clients near as much. Lesson learned.
Regarding printing on site. We go to several dance competitions a year. As a dance family....not to sell photos. Almost always there's a staff photographer there shooting each routine and you can buy the prints right there. What I've noticed is that the promoters that are charging $20.00 for a 4x6 print have far less business then the one guy we saw who charged $15.00 for a CD of every photo of any one routine. He was very busy. And one event last year had NO photographer and I think it's because those trying to sell a 4x6 for 20 bucks are losing money. (I think)
The one thing I was concerned about was having the clients printing from the digital files, since most will take them to either WalMArt, Target or a drug store for printing. And that quality is typically terrible. And therefore I felt I would be blamed for that....or maybe not.
Anyway, thanks very much for the info. Much appreciated. A lot of good stuff here.
www.emurals.com
www.thesarasotamuralist.blogspot.com
This was basically my point - people want digital files to share online. If you charge before you click, this is a non-issue. Just brand them and put them in an online gallery without protection (but limit the size) and let them have at it. If they never get around to ordering prints, no big deal, you already have the money, and they got what they wanted.
This seems weird... are there multiple photographers competing at the same event? I wouldn't want any part of that scene. I would need to be the official photographer, and if I'm not I'm not going to try to poach sales from the official photographer. I'd just shoot snaps of my own kids and their close friends for free. Are you trying to compete with other photographers at the same event?
Also, $20 for a 4x6 is highway robbery. Unless they are just trying to discourage 4x6 sales, and a 5x7 and an 8x10 are also $20.
Beyond your control. If the photo looks good on their screen but not in print, a reasonable person will not blame you.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Some people do. Some still want paper prints. Age seems to be the determining factor; folks above 40 are more likely to want paper prints and distrust this new-fangled digital doohickey contraption, while folks under 40 are more likely to be active online and want nothing but digital files for digital purposes, and maybe an individual print here and there for the wall.
No, that's not the way it works. When people look at a badly printed photo, all they see is "this is bad picture". Most have absolutely no idea what it takes to compose, shoot, process, and print a digital photo; all they know is "I paid $XX for this photo, and it looks terrible!" They don't see the processing facility that printed the photo. They don't know how bad paper, bad ink, or incompetent operators at Walmart and Target can ruin an otherwise stellar image. They never look at the original image on more than one device to see if it's the image of the printing that's at fault. All they know is, "pic bad" and since "pic came from THAT guy", THAT guy is the one on whom they will place the blame.
Basically, a REASONABLE person is mighty rare when it comes to bad photos.
We've hired a professional portrait photographer out of Georgetown, Texas twice now for our little girls pics and she has a fool-proof way to handle the Wal-Mart print problem. Both times we've bought her digital package. Hi-res non-watermarked, fully edited including skin retouching with print release. But this is what she does: when you buy the digital package you get a CD with the images PLUS you get a single 5x7 of each image done by a pro lab (she uses McKenna Pro). Bingo, problem solved. So if her client takes her disc to Wal Mart and doesn't like the results, all the client has to do is compare it to the print Teri gave her and all questions evaporate from the client's mind.
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Love this idea. I sort of do a similar idea in that I have printed several images that will be framed and on view at the dance studio. I also create some heavily edited pieces so the parents can see what I can do for them. In addition, I'm composing a hard cover book so they can see that as an option as well.
www.emurals.com
www.thesarasotamuralist.blogspot.com
Events usually have a still photographer and a videographer. One promoter, the one that charges 20 bucks for a 4x6, has TV quality equipment set up for the video. It's quite impressive.
And I agree...20 bucks for a 4x6 is too much. I bought one of my daughter last year and it wasn't as good as I thought it looked on the preview screens. In fact, the stills taken by the guy selling them for $15.00 for the entire routine were better.
And no, I do not compete with any other photographer at these events. I don't even take photos there unless they specifically allow that and even so, I use those for the dance studios web site and FB pages. Not for sale. Again, I only soot if I'm allowed. Most don't allow it if they have their own photographer there, understandably.
www.emurals.com
www.thesarasotamuralist.blogspot.com
Being a former photo lab employee at a Walmart, I disagree with your comment on the statement that the operator of the lab ruin prints. All the operator does, at Walmart anyways, is maintain the printing equipment, package the customers orders and price it. They have a schedule that they follow for the changing of the chemicals in the printer for the what we called a wet lab, whether it needed it or not. If I seen that photos were starting to be degraded due to the chemicals needing changed, I would bring it to my supervisors attention, and she would schedule it to be changed at the earliest opportunity. The biggest problem I seen was the customers not knowing how to deal with all the options available on the KIOSK when they submit their orders. I've had customers complain about heads getting chopped off, and that was due to making an 8x10 from a 4x6 image. What I would do is ask them if they have a few minutes and if they did, take them to the KIOSK and redo the ones they complained about, taking my time to explain the steps needed to ensure they get what they wanted. Most were very happy, and a lot of them became some of my best customers, in that they would wait to submit their orders until I was there. Same goes for their instant print (now HP inkjet system), even though I disliked it, for quality prints. I had liked the Kodak Dye Sub printer system we had when I first started there.
In closing, the only place that Walmart fails in being a decent photo lab is the fact that they no longer hire full time emplyees (they are actively getting rid of all full time employees), and their belief they can have anyone run the photo lab.
GaryB
“The single most important component of a camera is the twelve inches behind it!” - Ansel Adams
Umm, yeah.
FWIW, My local WM is bad at printing photos. I steer people away.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Wait, now - I never said or implied that ALL Walmart operators were incompetent. When I shot film, I had several hundred rolls processed and printed at various Walmarts, and most were done with perfectly acceptable competence. Only SOME of the people who worked there were incompetent.
I did run into incompetent operators who failed to change the chemicals at the proper time, or misaligned the negatives when putting them into the machine, resulting in crooked or cropped 4x6's, or cut my negatives through the image, or spun a dial on the machine somewhere that resulted in bad prints from good negatives. They were mostly pretty good at getting the job done - if they hadn't been, I'd have gone somewhere else - but now and then I ran into one who simply didn't belong in a photo lab.
The biggest problem Walmart's photo lab had when I was using it regularly, was that they hired any Harry Hardluck or Sally Sobstory to work in a photo lab and failed to properly train them to operate the equipment for optimum processing and printing. Hence, some of them were incompetent. Not necessarily their fault, but whether you're incompetent because your boss fails to properly train you or because you're an apathetic goof-off or because you're a complete and total moron doesn't really matter; you're still incompetent. And Walmart had, and has, some incompetent people in the photo lab.
I agree with you about Walmart's policy on who they hire for the photo lab. When I worked there, I was the only one that had any photography experience. If I was there, and another person had a customer that had questions, they would always refer the customer to me, but they hung around and listened to my answers and some of them eventually caught on. Now it is only getting worse because they are getting rid of as many full time employees as they can and replacing them with part time employees. Half the time, they don't schedule anyone for the photo lab, and just have someone from another department cover the photo lab if they page someone for customer assistance in the photo lab. One time I needed to go on my lunch break (1 hr) and they had one of the supervisors fill in for me. I told her to page me if she had any problems, and she said she knew everything about the lab. So I went on my break. When I got back, the printer wasn't printing and she was pushing just about every button there was. Turned out she loaded the 6" paper in the 8" spot, and the printer was looking for 8". Needless to say, I would have been better off not going to lunch.
GaryB
“The single most important component of a camera is the twelve inches behind it!” - Ansel Adams
Well, if enough people called 1-800-walmart and filed a complaint, something might get done to correct it. Better yet, call 1-479-273-6175 and ask for Bill Simon. He's the CEO of Walmart.
GaryB
“The single most important component of a camera is the twelve inches behind it!” - Ansel Adams