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Frustration - need feedback
Combo shoot on Tuesday - headshots for dad, then a family shoot while I was there. Mom, dad, 13yo boy and 2yo girl.
We'd already rescheduled three times due to the weather; Tuesday was clear and dry, but COLD. This was fine in theory - and I don't mind - but all but dad were of the "don't like it chilly" variety, so didn't really want to go outside. We started in their big family room around the Christmas tree - this was fine in theory, but low ceilings made it almost impossible to light with off camera flash, and the red walls/carpet and panelling made bounce flash pretty bad too. Ambient was a non-starter (I tried a few, but they really are dark - they've all had to go to B&W). I wanted everybody to go and play or move around or something so I could just do interaction stuff, but they were having none of it. OY!
I'm so frustrated - not a single shot I truly *like* from the whole set. If I thought baby girl wasn't into it indoors, that was nothing compared to outside! I swear we tried EVERYTHING we could think of to get the little one to look at the camera, and it just wasn't gonna happen.............
Anyway, here are a few. I've thrown everything I know at them and I still don't truly *like* a single shot from the family stuff.
It's taken me 2 days to pull these from the set and make them even share-able. While I've tagged about 50 images on my first pass, I"ll be surprsied if more than 20 of them are deliverable. So, good dgrin folk: what's the best thing to do? (Btw, I do NOT stipulate a set number of images for family shoots ... for EXACTLY this reason!!!!)
PS On a plus note: the Sigma 35mm 1.4 ROCKS.
PPS Yes, my processing is a little all over the place - haven't decided what i want to do with them yet so am still experimeneting; will make them coherent once I've got a complete set.
1. Headshot, which at least demonstrates basic competence! This was practically SOOC, which is rather encouraging
(one shoothrough umbrella camera right as fill - wanted to keep it simple)
2. I did think to get a couple of the little one when I first arrived (they were running late). Glad I did given what came next!!
3. Now it gets bumpier :rofl Baby Girl doin' her "don't wanna" thing
4. Went for the Norman Rockwell look partly because that's what I saw in the setup and positions, but mostly to try and make lemons out of the high iso and crappy light lemonade....
5/6 Caught a couple in the more interactive/lifestyle vibe I really wanted
6.
7.
8. Focus isn't good on this, but at least it's not out and out grumpy from the little one!
9. Toddler photobomb. I took SO MANY in this series, and there isn't one damn shot where she's looking at me. The other three look great, but I have nothing at all I can use to make this something more than it is here :cry
10. Me being artsy. I actually like this (although wish I'd done a few more with different framing of the surroundings - this is the ONLY one and I just took it on a whim), but I suspect many will think it's just dorky. :giggle
11. Mama won't like her expression in the 4th one here; will try to find another to swap in, but not hopeful. They moved around a lot, so that doesn't work too well....
We'd already rescheduled three times due to the weather; Tuesday was clear and dry, but COLD. This was fine in theory - and I don't mind - but all but dad were of the "don't like it chilly" variety, so didn't really want to go outside. We started in their big family room around the Christmas tree - this was fine in theory, but low ceilings made it almost impossible to light with off camera flash, and the red walls/carpet and panelling made bounce flash pretty bad too. Ambient was a non-starter (I tried a few, but they really are dark - they've all had to go to B&W). I wanted everybody to go and play or move around or something so I could just do interaction stuff, but they were having none of it. OY!
I'm so frustrated - not a single shot I truly *like* from the whole set. If I thought baby girl wasn't into it indoors, that was nothing compared to outside! I swear we tried EVERYTHING we could think of to get the little one to look at the camera, and it just wasn't gonna happen.............
Anyway, here are a few. I've thrown everything I know at them and I still don't truly *like* a single shot from the family stuff.
It's taken me 2 days to pull these from the set and make them even share-able. While I've tagged about 50 images on my first pass, I"ll be surprsied if more than 20 of them are deliverable. So, good dgrin folk: what's the best thing to do? (Btw, I do NOT stipulate a set number of images for family shoots ... for EXACTLY this reason!!!!)
PS On a plus note: the Sigma 35mm 1.4 ROCKS.
PPS Yes, my processing is a little all over the place - haven't decided what i want to do with them yet so am still experimeneting; will make them coherent once I've got a complete set.
1. Headshot, which at least demonstrates basic competence! This was practically SOOC, which is rather encouraging
(one shoothrough umbrella camera right as fill - wanted to keep it simple)2. I did think to get a couple of the little one when I first arrived (they were running late). Glad I did given what came next!!
3. Now it gets bumpier :rofl Baby Girl doin' her "don't wanna" thing
4. Went for the Norman Rockwell look partly because that's what I saw in the setup and positions, but mostly to try and make lemons out of the high iso and crappy light lemonade....
5/6 Caught a couple in the more interactive/lifestyle vibe I really wanted
6.
7.
8. Focus isn't good on this, but at least it's not out and out grumpy from the little one!
9. Toddler photobomb. I took SO MANY in this series, and there isn't one damn shot where she's looking at me. The other three look great, but I have nothing at all I can use to make this something more than it is here :cry
10. Me being artsy. I actually like this (although wish I'd done a few more with different framing of the surroundings - this is the ONLY one and I just took it on a whim), but I suspect many will think it's just dorky. :giggle
11. Mama won't like her expression in the 4th one here; will try to find another to swap in, but not hopeful. They moved around a lot, so that doesn't work too well....
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i like number 9, even if the kid isn't looking at the picture. it's the one that gives me more "family" feeling.
and, don't really know how to say it, but the lower right pic in number 7 looks like the little girl is holding a....penis.
Sílvio Oliveira
Sílvio Oliveirawww.silviooliveira.net
Lighting looks inconsistent in most of them, try to even it out a bit. Some of the groupings are not ideal.
Looks like a more of a photojournalistic set. Have you shown them to the family, you may be surprised and they will be happy with them.
Photographers are WAY more critical than the general public of photo quality.
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Probably you can get away with it and I am sure many would.
I never met the people but they seem to be perfect for a formal, traditional, American-style set. So you would need to organise your background and lighting and then bring them in to pose. I am with zoomer in thinking you went into this with a photojournalist mind set (and the new 35mm) and found a truly horrible photographic environment.
Just my 2 cents and meant to help. I liked 7 best but I doubt the clients will as they are into colours and textures and stuff like that - or so it seems. And once you have seen the penis you will always see it - I did not until Silvio pointed it out and surely someone always will, even years from now.
I hope you get better advice on this, not least because I can easily imagine myself in the same pickle.
Good point, Mike - and one of the reasons I threw it out here for input. They've seen the "Norman Rockwell" processed one with the tree and LOVED it. So I'm honestly not sure how they're going to respond! I'm of two minds whether to point out that I see problems and we can do a "pick up" set in warmer weather, or wait until they've seen them and make a call to re-shoot or not once I get their reaction. Hmmmm..... :-/
My plan - discussed with them i detail beforehand - was to try and get a few quick posed shots before the toddler got bored aand then move outside to do more interactive/lifestyle stuff. With one this young I was pretty sure we needed to go with a more "turn 'em loose" casual/lifestyle vibe (one of the reasons I even BOUGHT the 35 was I knew I had this shoot coming up). We repeatedly agreed that we were going for a "shoot us as we are" session, with a few posed shots at the beginning if we could get them, in the knowledge it might be tricky (although I didn't expect quite THAT tricky lol). I made this very clear every time we spoke, and they also know I'm not a specialist in children's and family photography. I repeatedly requested in our prep that we go somewhere they could "play" and do stuff so I could capture them interacting etc; there were a couple of suggestions from the family, but then the mom didn't want to go out into the cold, so it just didn't happen.
The little girl didn't want to respond to our toys, noises, silliness - nothing. She wanted to play with mommy's watch so we tried holding that over my head (she just cried), and then the little spinner outside (that was our best bet, but even so not satisfactory). She really just did NOT want to be part of this... and nothing quite as a determined as a toddler who has made up their mind
PS Point taken - I think I need to clone out the male appendage
My thoughts on the images you posted:
1. Great!
2. Great!
3. Good composition, but she has no emotional connection to the photograph. Need more interaction with her to get these reactions you want.
4. Not bad. A wider angle would have been nicer. Also, not a fan of the processing here. Looks a bit dark.
5. Too cheesy. Looks like she's about to sneeze lol.
6. Not a fan of the pose. Why is the Dad so far away from his son? Guide them into a pose, and then let the reactions follow.
7. #7a is a keeper. The two smaller ones b + c ; not a fan of her expression. To me, you can keep em. I really don't see a penis here, so I think you're fine!
8. Father is too far away again. Your focus is on his hand, the wife, and kid. The son is also hiding behind mom! I can't stress it enough, but you REALLY need to pay attention to detail. Half the battle of photography is light + composition. The other half is emotion. Get em all, and you'll create something killer.
9. Son's head is hiding again + advice from 8 ^
10. I appreciate the art involved. Not sure what the folks would think, so you could either keep it or scrap it.
11. Same as 8+9. Focus on posing. What do I personally see here? It looks like you were trying hard to get a reaction from them without taking into account the posing. The daughter has no neck in these, she's all head!
Since it looks like you're trying to head down the photojournalistic/lifestyle route, I'll give you a few protips to ease the pain of awkward people:
1. Stay cool, calm, and collective, BUT pay attention to detail! Roll through shots, and critique yourself on the spot..but quickly! See a head blocked, fix it!
2. Do poses on the same plane. Tell them to "line up on the imaginary line". Find a solid background, and make some magic! You can still shoot at a shallow DOF, giving that lifestyle appeal as long as they are on the same plane.
3. Be creative. That 2 year old is pretty short huh? Have her hop on Daddy's shoulders, to make her a little taller
4. Expect the unexpected. Someone is being a little snot today? Roll with it. Attempt to get them happy, but never let that affect YOUR mood and YOUR abilities as a photographer.
Personally, I think you need to get more inspiration for the group work. Your headshot work is fantastic. You've taken a lot of ideas from the pros, and have created a professional product which is your own, and is FANTASTIC. Analyze some group lifestyle sessions, see how they do poses vs. candid shots. You got it all down, you just need to work out some of the nuts 'n bolts.
Hamfred -HA! Brilliant. That said... not sure even that would have worked. She was a tough customer. We used toys -didn't work. Had Mini-d with me as an assistant, and she was doing crazy dancy funny things behind my head to get attention, including holding the spinner which had been so popular when it was stuck in the ground. Nada. Both parents are singers, so my loud singer-y noises got zero reaction. Nichts. Nuthin' doing.
Agree with you about inspiration for groups - YES! I'm not awful, but it's not at the same level as the headshots, and I know it. Hence the frustration
Ah yes, the posing. Dad is 6'2+, and NO MATTER WHAT I TOLD HIM would move back out of my "clothesline" just as I went to take the picture ... I must have said 20 times to put his head between wife and boy, not behind them. I even went and showed him by doing it myself but he is just conditioned to move back. Ditto the (slightly shy) lad - he kept pulling back after I got everybody lined up (not helped because the little one was distracting everybody so much). Repeated over and over to let me see their faces (which is thanks to YOU in PA - that's the best piece of advice I've been given in a long time, and I won't forget it !!!) Ah me....
I feel like I'm close to being able to do something with all of this, and when I finally do figure out the "how" that works for me it will be ok. But as you say for now, I"m not quite getting there. On a plus note for this shoot, I will say another pass through the shots and found a couple which have potential with some work in post, so that's good - I've found two more that I actually will quite like once I'm done with them.
A lot of work, but I need to be satisfied I'm delivering SOMETHING. I think what i may put to them is "Here are your shots - obviously, we didn't get the best out of the baby, so if you would like we could maybe do another short session in a couple of months in the spring". If they take me up on it, then I get another crack at it; if they don't, at least I've made sure they know they have that offer. Have to think about that and how to present it.......
PS Re #4 - found a better one in thatseries which is not only wider, but where dad doesn't look like he's letting go of a fart. I already know they liked the other one, so I call this win-win.
From nitpick view, I am not a fan of the angle you shot from in the Norman Rockwell pics. The focus is on the girl but you shot standing up. To me this screams snapshot as this is what most people do when they take personal photographs. I think it would have been better to take it much lower and get on the level of the children and mom.
That said, I just had a look at a preliminary set as a slideshow (something I do to self-proof "storytelling" sets - somehow it makes it easier for me to see if there's any flow) and while there are indeed "photographer nit" problems, it doesn't look as bad as I thought, particularly given the challenges there were to surmount. Once I get it finished I may run it past you all here again to see what you think.
Sometimes the critiques don't see the surroundings like the photographer on site so that's understandable!
I know when I don't like a shoot it's because I doesn't come off the way I visualized. Stepping back for a couple of days helps. I had a shoot this summer in the middle of the day and there wasn't any shade around. It was a renunion for a doctor and his patients. Families lined up for 2 hrs to get pics taken with the doctor and it was pretty much one shot and next family. By the end of the shoot the doctors face was red, I did my best to use fill light, and some of the shots were just bad. There just wasn't enough time to give each family the proper time. It was assembly line production. However, I got good feedback from families when I posted the gallery even though I was personally embarrassed by some of the shots. Looking back I would have done things differently but it wasn't too bad considering the conditions. Sometimes the conditions conspire against.
Two days of working on them, and I came up with these (fwiw, I think there are 6 images involved in these two shots!!). I make absolutely NO claim for them as Best Ever Family Shots - and it's not even a style I terribly like or consider "mine" - but I'm pretty sure they'll like them, and consider them competent enough to deliver without apology.
All the other more informal shots capture the fun of the day (I know they enjoyed it - very kind words about the experience) and are just fun candids which I think will appeal to them, so with luck I've managed to pull this together. :whew
Anybody who has time and can face it, click the first image for the full gallery - feedback DEFINITELY still welcomed (haven't delivered yet).
also #43 remains my favorite.
They will definitely be very pleased with the final result.
just don't know if you should give them the choice between the soft versions and the punchy ones. imo you should only give them your style, be it one or the other.
In the end, i believe you did a great job. congrats.
Sílvio Oliveira
Sílvio Oliveirawww.silviooliveira.net
I will bet, there is a 50/50 chance that a big deal was made of this session with the little girl prior to it happening. Not by you, but by her parents. Things like, "Were getting our picture taken. You have to smile nice. Behave." etc. etc. Nothing could be worse to do with a child that age. It puts levels of expectation on little ones and creates pressure in their mind. In some cases they may have ad a really bad experience with another photographer. Rather than not performing up to expectations and disappointing her parents, it's easier to not participate at all.
Next time try this...
Inform parents NOT to say anything about getting pictures taken but instead tell child....
"Guess what? Were having someone come over to play with us. She has a really pretty teddy bear and we're going to have a tea party. It's going to be so much fun and you can have the tea party any way you want."
Come over, set up a little tea party with a teddy bear that you brought and start playing with the parents. In her mind, there is no right or wrong way to have a tea party. It's fun. She'll participate. Do this before you even get your camera out.
Now, once she is all involved with the tea party, start taking a few shots. She will get comfortable and as long as every so often you introduce a little 30 second game or so, you should have her cooperation the rest of the shoot.
I have found that the time spent before the camera comes out is almost more important than the time with the camera with children that age.
I think I could have managed the weather, the uncooperative baby or the red-room, but all three together was TOUGH lol
That is great advice. I've done shots where the parents put a great deal of pressure on the kids and all it does is clam them up.