Event pricing question

divamumdivamum Major grinsRegistered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
edited June 25, 2015 in Mind Your Own Business
This thread started in People, but since it's migrated to mostly business Qs, I'm posting the continuation of it here. All (constructive) input welcomed!

I received the following enquiry from a local performing group. I think it could be a neat little gig, but need to price it appropriately; this is a little different from my usual events, and because there will be clear commercial use of the images need to figure out how to price it.


Glad to learn that you may be able to cover these events! I'm excited to have someone actually focused on catching great moments for us... I know how much we've been missing! :)

I'm envisioning a portrait shot of each performer 'in action' that we can provide to them as a keepsake, but also candid shots of the crowd before/after, family/friend groups, shots of students with their teachers, etc. which I would think could be pretty successful if you wanted to sell them for students/friends/family later (through your own website so that you get the new site traffic), though I'd like to receive all the images for studio use, if agreeable. Maybe 'raw' isn't the right description of what I mean-- as an effort to keep this on the budget-friendly end of things, I'm suggesting minimal or no editing before sending us photos (as mentioned, we're used to manipulating the images ourselves later after ripping them from film... this a big, overdue upgrade), but I also understand you don't want to have your work misrepresented.

As far as our expected studio uses go, I anticipate using these images in newsletters, blog posts, perhaps in some online advertising campaigns, etc. ]What would your standard terms be with regard to manipulating your images? We also like to hang them up around the studio, of course (and will gladly post credit!) in their 'official' photographer-approved format. I'm very open to promoting you and any offers you might like to share with our studio community in newsletters, etc. As mentioned, I hope to find a photographer to form an on-going relationship with-- I think this can be very mutually beneficial.



1. I was thinking flat fee for up to 3hrs of shooting (2hr concert + 1/2hr before and after for the candids mentioned). Any prints sold would be a bonus; I don't want to rely on that to cover the session.

2. Obviously their intention to use them in advertising etc is commercial usage, but how to charge appropriately for that?

3. I typically don't allow people to edit my delivered images (other than cropping/minor tweaks to fit in a brochure or webpage). What's a good approach to this?

Thanks in advance for thoughts!! :thumb

Comments

  • T. BombadilT. Bombadil Major grins Registered Users Posts: 285 Major grins
    edited June 19, 2015
    divamum wrote: »

    I would interpret what they have said to mean they are hoping to reduce cost by relying on less of your time and skills (ie., they would like to hire you, primarily, for your ability to capture images).

    My advice is not to be offended by this, and give some thought as to what extent this is a type of client service you wish to deliver. If you don't mind that sort of relationship (maybe even insisting on NO photographer's attribution), you could pick up a few $$ with little aggravation. If you prefer not to spend time capturing images that possibly provide no promotion of your full-service business (understandable. these images would not advance your business), then consider giving them a sample full-res, finished JPEG from a (vaguely) similar shoot to discover whether such images would suit their purposes.

    If they want greater 'edibility', then you can respectfully decline. However, I would still give them a price quote. If your price is within their budget, they may gratefully accept your full-service solution. One (my) interpretation of their request is that they would like to have you shoot, and are trying to find a way to afford it (in the only way they can think of). Until you have discussed price, nobody knows whether the rest matters.
    Bruce

    Chooka chooka hoo la ley
    Looka looka koo la ley
  • divamumdivamum Major grins Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited June 19, 2015
    Thanks! I'm not remotely offended, and am far more concerned with pricing appropriately to cover commercial use than anything else at this point. Not so high as to price myself out of their budget, but I don't want to undersell myself either. I'm having a rough time getting a feel for the pricing - googling may be a bit misleadng, as the area is affluent but this is probably not going to be at the top end.

    Does anybody else here do events and would be willing to throw some numbers at me? PM is fine if you don't want to share publicly thanks!!.
  • T. BombadilT. Bombadil Major grins Registered Users Posts: 285 Major grins
    edited June 20, 2015
    divamum wrote: »
    Thanks! I'm not remotely offended, and am far more concerned with pricing appropriately to cover commercial use than anything else at this point. Not so high as to price myself out of their budget, but I don't want to undersell myself either. I'm having a rough time getting a feel for the pricing - googling may be a bit misleadng, as the area is affluent but this is probably not going to be at the top end . . . .

    ah, understood - sorry to say I have no idea what $ level to target. ne_nau.gif
    Bruce

    Chooka chooka hoo la ley
    Looka looka koo la ley
  • jonh68jonh68 Major grins Registered Users Posts: 2,711 Major grins
    edited June 20, 2015
    divamum wrote: »
    Thanks! I'm not remotely offended, and am far more concerned with pricing appropriately to cover commercial use than anything else at this point. Not so high as to price myself out of their budget, but I don't want to undersell myself either. I'm having a rough time getting a feel for the pricing - googling may be a bit misleadng, as the area is affluent but this is probably not going to be at the top end.

    Does anybody else here do events and would be willing to throw some numbers at me? PM is fine if you don't want to share publicly thanks!!.

    When things like this would come up I too worried about their budget and pricing myself out. However I have changed my thinking about this and the only thing that matters is underselling myself. I know it sounds selfish but doing this takes away my free time to whatever I want. There is a price for that. I have gotten into situations where the client kept wanting more and more and it kept me from either doing what I wanted or took into my time with clients that actually value the work.

    For the nitty gritty stuff. $150 an hour on location. If you do not set a hourly fee then clients will take as much of your time as they can. By going hourly they are more motivated to keep things moving and you to shoot what is actually important to them. If they want a firm estimate then double the hours if they think it will be 1-2 hours. After that just add 2hrs.

    Since your editing will be minimum then estimate how long it will take to edit and then price what you feel is worth your time.

    In regards to commercial use, I wouldn't bother too much on this part about pricing. Just say you can use the pics for commercial purposes. However, ask if they would tell you which photo they are going to use so you can get that pic up to your critical standards. Also put in the wording that if they want extra work done to the image there will be an additional editing cost.

    As far as them editing the images themselves then that is up to you.
  • divamumdivamum Major grins Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited June 21, 2015
    Thanks John! Yeah, I'd make the flat fee "up to X hrs" and then charge in 30 minute increments after that. I've been thinking about what I "need" to make it worth my time. It could be a nice little gig for me, so I'm thinking I"ll put together a quote, see how it goes.. and go from there :)

    Thanks!
  • OffTopicOffTopic Searching for the light Registered Users Posts: 521 Major grins
    edited June 22, 2015
    Some thoughts -

    Since I primarily shoot for corporate clients, unlike Jon who doesn't worry about the commercial usage of the images I put most of my pricing emphasis on the usage, and I charge substantially more for commercial usage of images (vs. internal usage or editorial). You need to decide if you want to give them the royalty free license they appear to be requesting (basically all-rights all-media in perpetuity) or rights managed (which is how I license). For a shoot like this I would have my creative fee/day rate (I don't do hourly, I have half-day and full-day rate with OT over 10 hours), my time for post-processing, and then a licensing fee depending on how they want to use them...commercial usage is much more valuable to the company because those images help them sell their product. For example I have one long term client whose contract gives them the right to one-time on-line/digital editorial and social media usage (posts only, page banners result in an additional fee). Any usage beyond what is specifically outlined in our contract, including print editorial, incurs an additional (substantial) fee. That is how I keep most shoots within their budget, and they only pay more when they want additional usage for certain images. This works well when I do event-type coverage for them, I get paid for shooting the event (plus my expenses), and then paid for the images depending on how they are used, different ones will be used different ways, and some will be used in multiple ways. So the more valuable an image is to the client, the more I get paid for it.

    As to allowing them to print images for display in their studio, only you can decide if you are willing to have Walmart/Costco prints of your work being on display. I did allow one client to make prints for their conference rooms, but they had hired me to shoot an entire lifestyle library of images and it was a 5 figure shoot, so I was willing to make that concession.

    I would be careful about allowing them give high-res copies to each performer because that right there is where you lose your potential print sales. Lo-res for social media usage is one thing, but if you are hoping to sell some prints as you indicated, you can't allow your client to give them the high res files.

    Also should make sure they understand that any commercial usage of photos of individuals requires a model release, especially a concern if the subject is a minor (not sure if this is a children's music school?). Will they be obtaining the model releases (or perhaps already have them on file as part of their student contract agreement?) or will you need to obtain the releases for them?

    It can be tough negotiating with a client whose only past experience is with aspiring pros who shoot for a low price and give the images away, or with photographers who don't understand licensing and commercial usage because it's a bit of a different game than portrait/wedding/event photography. It depends on how you want to position yourself in the market (and if you are hoping to do future commercial work), but there is a reason they asked YOU to bid on the job.

    One tactic that can sometimes prove useful is to ask what they were thinking of for their budget, and then says "here's what I can do for you in that price range". That usually opens the door to some good discussion, and if their anticipated budget is way off the mark I have told clients that I'm not the right photographer for that specific job/budget without burning any bridges and still getting future work from them.
  • divamumdivamum Major grins Registered Users Posts: 9,021 Major grins
    edited June 23, 2015
    Thanks OT - great information. I had actually already replied to them before I saw yours, and this is what I outlined; I think it might be at the lower end for the area, although Google turned up many locally whose rates are $100-150 per hr, so maybe it's not too far out:

    - $350 to include up to 3hrs of shooting time (2hr concert + 1/2hr before and after for candids).
    - Overage to be charged in 1/2-hr increments at $50 per half hour.
    - you would handle release forms/photo permission for participants
    - general usage rights for studio marketing and publicity included.
    - Further usage (eg including but not limited to television, publications, recording sales) to be negotiated separately at a later date as and if needed.
    - all full-resolution files delivered *to you digitally
    - Prints and digital downloads available for participants to purchase direct via my gallery

    I haven't heard back yet, so we'll see what they say!
  • Reflections By BrianReflections By Brian Big grins Registered Users Posts: 57 Big grins
    edited June 25, 2015
    It sounds like you are on track with the pricing. I am in the process of figuring out a similar scenario but haven't quite got it pinned down yet. The only thing that would concern me with regards to giving them "minimally processed" files is that your name will be associated with them. They will be listing you as the official photographer and anyone who sees them will associate it with, and think it is your work and the quality of your work. When someone sees my name attached to a photo, I want it to represent the quality and type of work the can expect if they hire me. I don't want them seeing marginal images that someone else edited and processed and think its mine. I even have a hard time giving digital files for the same reason. If I print it, I control the final quality that people will see. If they print it at Walmart or a lower quality lab and hang it on their wall, that is the quality of work people will associate with your name. You do awesome work and I would hate to see your reputation of quality compromised because of someone else's edits to your images. If they don't credit you as the photographer, then it will make no difference how they edit them. Just my two cents.
  • catnipcatnip Beginner grinner New member Posts: 9 Beginner grinner
    edited June 25, 2015
    An hourly price is okay and any work beyond that should be charged piece by piece.

    A lot of photographers I know do provide digital downloads and an X number of prints to showcase the best of the best.

    I hope they agree on your price :)
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