Was this proposal unreasonable?
jmphotocraft
Registered Users Posts: 2,987 Major grins
Local high school approached me to shoot for their program and yearbook. They gave me a list of what they wanted. I returned the following proposal, repeating their listed requests:
Varsity Picture Day - $300 per team, scheduled separately
- Team group photo
- Captains group photo
- Seniors group photo
- Coaches with Seniors group photo
- Attack group photo
- Midfield group photo
- Defense group photo
- Player individual portraits
- Coaches individual portraits
Varsity Game Day - $200 per team, scheduled separately
- Team group photo in pregame formal wear earlier in the day
- Game action photos
Capturing every senior in action will be the priority but may not be possible due to injury, inactivation, inadequate playing time, or absence
Junior Varsity Picture and Game Day - $200 per team, scheduled separately
- Team group photo before game
- Coaches individual portraits before game
- Game action photos
Middle School Picture Day - $200
- 8th grade girls team group photo
- 8th grade boys team group photo
- 7th grade girls team group photo
- 7th grade boys team group photo
- Coaches individual portraits
So, shooting on 7 different days for a grand total of $1600. There are 50 varsity players (boys and girls) who would need individual portraits, as would all coaches. I thought this was more than fair, but was told they were hoping to spend about $500. Argh. Since it's my town and this sport has never hired a pro before, and since they are trying to grow their program into a real money-maker, I want to get in. So I countered and offered to do it if we can do all the posed pictures on a single day, and that I would write-off a portion of my fee as a donation to bring their cost down to $500. Haven't heard back yet.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Comments
Your proposed prices were already pretty cheap, so obviously $500 is just a step over pro-bono. Of course as you say, there are benefits to doing it for the community.
You should check with your accountant, but I think you'll find that you cannot assign a value to donated time and write it off. You can only write-off actual expenses that you incurred.
Link to my Smugmug site
A full time pro I know does this. You invoice the customer for the full amount, then add a line for the donation. FWIW, YMMV, don't take my word for it.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
What he's doing is illegal under IRS Publication 526 for Charitable Contributions which states that you can't deduct for your time or services. https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p526.pdf Bottom of page 6, first column, #4.
Link to my Smugmug site
Always, 100% of the time, get accounting advice from an accountant.
I can tell you that my accountant says a big NO on donating time and writing it off. I can write off mileage, meals, hotel, and products used for a non profit, but never, ever my time. Talk to your accountant, they are the one that goes with you to the IRS to defend your audit.
Next, $1600 was a gift.
The single best advice that I can give you on business is learn to say no.
There is nothing wrong with giving someone a good deal or volunteering your time/effort, but that should be your decision, not because someone wants a cheap person that happens to own a camera. That is what craigslist is for.
Here is how I would have handled it.
Q. What is your budget?
A. If their budget is too low (because I know to the penny what my time is worth) I simply tell them no. If they still want a quote, I would need to know far more than how many pictures they want.
Q. How many pictures do you want.
A. Your breakdown is okay, but who is wrangling up the kids? Who is wrangling up the coaches? Do they want more than 1 image per person/team?
Q. What happens if everyone isn't there?
A. Do I have to come back? Do any missing people come to me?
Q. Where are we shooting this?
A. Never assume. If at their location, what else do you need? Lights? Backdrops? A second or third shooter?
Q. When are we shooting this?
A. Are there rain days? Sick days? Time of day?
Q. How long do I have to get the shots?
A. This is important and goes along with who is wrangling everyone together.
Q. Editing?
A. Are you doing all the editing? Cropping, adjustments, etc? How long will that take?
Q. When do they want the images delivered?
A. Do you have plenty of time to deliver, or are they in a rush to get the images?
Q. How do they want the images delivered?
A. Do they want prints? Digital transfer? A gallery on your website? Other?
These are just the 10 basic questions that need to be asked. Depending on their answers, I may have 10 or more follow up questions. How long am I going to spend working out these details? That time isn't free either.
Then you get into the funky questions that you must ask yourself.
There are so many things that go into pricing. Know the value of your time. Know the value of your skill. Know your ability to deliver.
Given that they are looking for some person who simply owns a camera, I would thank them for considering me, but politely let them know that I was unable to complete all the photographs for that price. Then, I would let them know that if and when they wish to get professional images done, please contact me, I would be more than happy to give them a quote.
Just the basic answers that you got, 7 days of shooting, unknown hours there and unknown hours editing, 5 times your quote would have been closer to the number depending on how many variables that they throw in, and even then it may not worth the time and effort.
Website
I dunno, maybe he cuts them a check for the donation. Or maybe he invoices the whole amount and they pay him with a check for less and a receipt for the donation. I forget exactly. That cannot be illegal.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Checks written to a non profit can be deducted (it's a percentage of what you give).
Also in some states (it may be federal, I don't remember which or if it is both) any donation over a certain amount needs to have written confirmation from the non profit. A canceled check isn't good enough. It's not a big amount either, something like 250 if my memory is correct. But please talk with your accountant, don't take my word for it.
Again, this is why you should sit down with your accountant to find out what works for you. Just because someone else gets away with it, doesn't mean you can.
There are so many factors involved. Is your business a private owned, LLC, S-Corp, C Corp, etc. All those things matter when it comes to taxes and donations.
Website
>
I want to get in.
>
I was under the impression you'd finished with all of this bs?
pp
Flickr
Haha, well, I'm definitely done shooting on-spec unless I'm just shooting for fun. My previous business models involved significant amounts of on-spec shooting. My first year, 2009, was all on-spec. My last year, 2014, was about 30% on spec. No more. Now I either charge fees to the committees, or parents must sign up and pay in advance.
This league wants to grow their program ad sales to about $25K. I'd like a piece of that. And, it's fun. But you're right, if I don't get this job I will have dodged a bullet, in many respects.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
I give a lot of talks about doing spec work (how and why) for gaining commercial clients, so I'm curious as to what your plan was for doing spec work in the beginning and why you think the reasons for it failed?
Website
https://dgrin.com/discussion/247779/part-timers-career-post-mortem
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
ps, the league has rejected my plan-B proposal to shoot all T&I on one day, for $500 and a receipt for a donation for the rest of my fee. They didn't think that would work (it would have). Fine. They want to pay $10/hr for professional photography, they can stick with their parents with kit Rebels.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Update - the job has been taken by another up-and-coming photographer in town. She's doing it for free, hoping to sell prints and things on spec.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
I spent a fair amount of time looking into this when I formed my LLC. Just to clarity, it is not so much illegal as it nets to zero. If you claim to donate the time at value $X, you need to book the income at $X as well, and they net to zero. Even if no cash changes hand, it is the equivilent of them writing you a check, and you writing one back to them for the donation. So yes you can deduct it -- but only if you also claim the income.
You can effectively donate only actual expenses such as film and paper (ha!), mileage (at a special rate) and tolls, possibly meals, and out of pocket stuff like if you had to pay admission to an event.
Any accountant advising you otherwise needs to be reconsidered as an accountant; the IRS rules on this are actually pretty simple and clear complained to most others.
I've got a buddy whose accountant has convinced him if he can get paid in things like Amex gift cards, he doesn't have to pay taxes on them. So he's requested that frequently. Sure... they may hide him better, a bit like cash, but his accountant is just plain wrong in terms of legality.
Sounds like a job well skipped.
Website