Microdrive questions.

Nikolai · December 13, 2005

Microdrives

Prezwoodz wrote:

My recently bought camera has the ability to hold a microdrive and I was wondering what the positives and negatives are for those. I would image since it holds more then the regular cards then then that could be an upside. Are they slower? Crash more often? [email="Thanks!@]Thanks!@[/email]

From my limited experience:

PROS:

MDs are cheaper or faster than comparable flash cards of the same volume

CONS:

since it's a very delicate mechanical device, MD can be broken by a hard vibration (dropping)
MDs usually consume more power, thus resulting in shorter battery life

As with almost everything, you gain something, you lose something...

HTH

Art Scott · December 13, 2005

Prezwoodz wrote:

My recently bought camera has the ability to hold a microdrive and I was wondering what the positives and negatives are for those. I would image since it holds more then the regular cards then then that could be an upside. Are they slower? Crash more often? [email="Thanks!@]Thanks!@[/email]

i have done extensive searches for and read many a review on them....I currently shoot with cf cards (currently lexar 80X 2 gb).....I would not use md if you plan to venture away from a soft floored studio...they are a moving rotating hard drive just like the one in your computer ONLY a lot more delicate.....
I am currently looking toward a move to the transcend cf card as it is showing better results than lexar, san disk, or kingston of the same speed and I donot really care about read speed...it is the write speed that matters to me (to move data from buffer to card).......and I have found the best deals and customer service at zip zoom fly...link-> http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductList.jsp?ThirdCategoryCode=012801

GOOD LUCK with your search

ian408 · December 14, 2005

With all this talk of MD's and their supposed fragility (is that even a word?),
I took mine and hucked it across the room. Hardly the scientific test but hey,
it still works

I would be concerned at altitude (like above 10k feet) as MD's (and other
disks) use a cushion of air to fly the heads above the disk surface--and there's
not much of it above 10k feet. Subjecting a MD to shock while still spinning
is probably also not such a good idea either.

That said, I see no reason (excepting performance) not to buy one.

Lest you suggest that a standard memory is more "robust", I would say "in
a different way". Meaning you can have failures from either. They are just
different.

Ian

colourbox · December 14, 2005

ian408 wrote:

With all this talk of MD's and their supposed fragility (is that even a word?), I took mine and hucked it across the room. Hardly the scientific test but hey, it still works ...you can have failures from either. They are just different.

The differences may be important. While your hucked drive still works, I have to wonder if it's now set up to fail earlier. Also, I've heard quite a few stories of CF cards surviving an accidental trip through the clothes washer and dryer, and I wonder a microdrive with its moving parts would also survive that.

ian408 · December 14, 2005

colourbox wrote:

The differences may be important. While your hucked drive still works, I have to wonder if it's now set up to fail earlier. Also, I've heard quite a few stories of CF cards surviving an accidental trip through the clothes washer and dryer, and I wonder a microdrive with its moving parts would also survive that.

All of these situations are atypical (compared to what you should be doing with
the product).

A trip through the washer removes a layer of protective coating on the
chip (unless it's sealed up tight) meaning the part will fail sooner rather
than later as it oxidizes because it is now exposed to air. What if you
put that card in your pocket? What are the chances static discharge
will cause a problem?

I'm sure that throwing the card against the wall will have consequences, I'm
also certain that they are only slightly more than the equiv CF card.

Ian

tibu · December 14, 2005

My experience
Hi

Once again this is not scientific but I've already had fatal failures with at least 2 memory cards from sandisk and trascend after a few months of operation, without involving any kicking or washing. They just drop dead a given day.

I also have a md that has worked perfectly for over 2 years and I use it a lot.

So though in theory MDs should be more delicate the fact is that they are still quite robust

Carlos

Art Scott · December 14, 2005

why not do a google and see what the experts say........a MD is most definitely more fragile than a CF card....it has moving parts and as for that cushion of air...well all harddrives have that cushion and they all caution not to drop the hdd.....even IBM stated that md's are not as solid as CF cards, but at the time of their introduction they were the largest capacilty external memory you could get.....I have had a lexar cf fail also but the recovery of the data was simple and lexar replaced it without hesitation....all they asked was if I could plug it into a reader as we talked and i did and the customer service operator quickly said to send it back on their dime and mine was on its way....I had replacement in 2 days....there is notheing electronic that can't and won't fail at sometime, and I try to put fate on my side as much as possible with fewer actual moving parts as possible. It is simple physics and logic more moving parts, more apt to failure........Recovery of a MD is going to be costly, as it is a hard drive and will have to be recovered as one, cost usually around $2.00 per megabite, even where I work our computer science Dept not the Telecommunications Dept (who maintains the computers on campus) farms out all recovery work, as the University cannot do the recovery themselves.

yes if you carry your storage media in your pants pocket your flirting with disaster from static electricity..so why chance it...why would you huck your MD against a wall just to prove it will still work. Would you huck your 300gig hard drive against the wall or your Mac G5 just to prove it would still work?? I wouldn't, but then I am not made of money and cannot just replace something destroyed from..............

I suggest you read some of the reviews:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/cf.htm

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/mediacompare/

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0006/00062601hitachiflash.asp

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=006PE4

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007

JamesJWeg · December 14, 2005

I have a 4 gb hitachi that I have used for about 8 months with no problems, I plan to order a 6 gb soon.

James.

Red Baron · December 14, 2005

The MD vs CF debate appears frequently on photography forums. You can expect to hear that CFs are more reliable, durable, stable etc. whereas MDs are fragile, fraught with problems and should be avoided. What you won't likely see is any reference to a scientific study. Forums have lots of reference to file corruption, missing pictures etc. relating to CF cards but these seem to be accepted as "crap happens". On the other hand, MD failure will elicit "it's a fragile hard-drive, what'd you expect" response. I must confess that I was part of the anti-MD crowd until cheapness got the better of me and I bought a 4GB Hitachi MD after someone pointed out that iPods have MDs in them and they don't appear to be suffering too badly. Anyway, my MD now functions as my primary storage device and it has worked flawlessly. I don't doubt that my MD may not stand up to rough handling but that's probably true of my camera as well - that's why I handle my gear carefully. If I was a PJ working in a war zone or a mountain climber I'm sure I'd be a CF only advocate but for my purposes an MD does the trick.

JamesJWeg · December 14, 2005

One more side to it is that if you can get a big MD you shouldn't ever need to remove it from the camera thus it is as safe as your camera.

James.

Nikolai · December 14, 2005

Unfortunately

JamesJWeg wrote:

One more side to it is that if you can get a big MD you shouldn't ever need to remove it from the camera thus it is as safe as your camera.

James.

This is not the case for Canon 20D (and I assume some other Canon models). Their USB download software is far from perfect, so you practically have to extract your card and use the reader. I tried to use cable (which was my habit and preferred way on Sony 505/505v/828), but due to the mentioned s/w issues it's extremely inconvenient if you have more than one "folder" on your card/md (i.e. if you crossed the boundary of x100), which happens almost every time you get a couple hours of shooting.

Strictly MHO.:):

Art Scott · December 14, 2005

Red Baron wrote:

The MD vs CF debate appears frequently on photography forums. You can expect to hear that CFs are more reliable, durable, stable etc. whereas MDs are fragile, fraught with problems and should be avoided. What you won't likely see is any reference to a scientific study. Forums have lots of reference to file corruption, missing pictures etc. relating to CF cards but these seem to be accepted as "crap happens". On the other hand, MD failure will elicit "it's a fragile hard-drive, what'd you expect" response. I must confess that I was part of the anti-MD crowd until cheapness got the better of me and I bought a 4GB Hitachi MD after someone pointed out that iPods have MDs in them and they don't appear to be suffering too badly. Anyway, my MD now functions as my primary storage device and it has worked flawlessly. I don't doubt that my MD may not stand up to rough handling but that's probably true of my camera as well - that's why I handle my gear carefully. If I was a PJ working in a war zone or a mountain climber I'm sure I'd be a CF only advocate but for my purposes an MD does the trick.

You are correct....and all of us refrained rom asking the origianl poster for what purpose he wanted to use his MD......I am an avid outdoor photographer an since all my equipment gets lots of vibration thru it from the hiking and tree climbing and vibration from various bass boats and other floating devices I use, so a MD is not in the running...... and my cards are being filled and emptied a couple of times a week.......

The best thing is education and some of the reviews listed give pro and cons to all they test. Like previously stated IBM / Hitatchi don't recommend them for rough handling jobs......

rutt · December 14, 2005

I've had OK experiences with MDs, but on the Canon 5D, they are slow compared to comparible FM. The 5D's big weakness is that it's buffer isn't very big and you can miss a shot (or 12) while it clears to memory. The difference between my 4GB FM and Hitachi MD is very dramatic (and frustrating.)

Art Scott · December 14, 2005

and the fact that a MD will drain you battery quickly as compared to the low usage of the CF or other FM types.

JamesJWeg · December 14, 2005

Nikolai wrote:

This is not the case for Canon 20D (and I assume some other Canon models). Their USB download software is far from perfect, so you practically have to extract your card and use the reader. I tried to use cable (which was my habit and preferred way on Sony 505/505v/828), but due to the mentioned s/w issues it's extremely inconvenient if you have more than one "folder" on your card/md (i.e. if you crossed the boundary of x100), which happens almost every time you get a couple hours of shooting.

Strictly MHO.:):

Tell me it isn't so.

Can't the canon go into Mass storage mode?

James.

Art Scott · December 14, 2005

Nikolai wrote:

This is not the case for Canon 20D (and I assume some other Canon models). Their USB download software is far from perfect, so you practically have to extract your card and use the reader. I tried to use cable (which was my habit and preferred way on Sony 505/505v/828), but due to the mentioned s/w issues it's extremely inconvenient if you have more than one "folder" on your card/md (i.e. if you crossed the boundary of x100), which happens almost every time you get a couple hours of shooting.

Strictly MHO.:):

It is always much faster to remove card and download via external reader. Using external reader also doen't drain your camera battery...... it takes approx 20 minutes for me download a 2gb Lexar Pro WA 80X card...cameras Minolta A2 and 7D..whether or not it is 1 folder or several.....have camera set to do folders by date.

JamesJWeg · December 14, 2005

JamesJWeg wrote:

Tell me it isn't so. Can't the canon go into Mass storage mode?

James.

Holy cow, I just checked, I had no idea that Canon doesn't do MSD, man am I glad I have a Nikon.

James.

Nikolai · December 14, 2005

Not that I know...

JamesJWeg wrote:

Tell me it isn't so. Can't the canon go into Mass storage mode?

James.

The 20D USB interface can operate in two modes.
One is via Canon proprietary driver, that does not support all necessary system interfaces to be considered a regular mass storage device, and as such is very limited.:uhoh
Another mode makes an attempt to support standard WIA protocol, which, in theory, should work on XP without any additional s/w installed.
Well, guess what: its own readme file says very clearly:

The WIA Driver does not support capture or management of RAW image files.

And since I'm using RAW almost exclusively...

Prezwoodz · December 14, 2005

Thanks for all the replies and comments guys. When you say look for the experts, well thats why I posted here

I am going to be using my camera for a lot of outdoor photography as well so I guess an MD is not a good idea.

Will see how the CF does I suppose!

Crispin · December 22, 2005

colourbox wrote:

The differences may be important. While your hucked drive still works, I have to wonder if it's now set up to fail earlier. Also, I've heard quite a few stories of CF cards surviving an accidental trip through the clothes washer and dryer, and I wonder a microdrive with its moving parts would also survive that.

Bit old into the thread but...

I dropped a CF card while getting into a lift on the 12th floor. It slipped between the lift door and floor and fell 14 stories (Basement). Still works today

Justiceiro · December 22, 2005

I guess the whole point of MD's is lowering your $ per byte for storage, and allowing you to go a longer time between download stops without breaking your bank.

I was faced with a similar situation before I took a 3 week trip to SE Asia this november, I was considering getting some MDs as purchasing cards to last that long would be prohibitively expensive. Instead I opted for a 40g portable hardrive (mediagear). At the time it was around $180 at Adorama- I'm not sure what it costs now. That turned out to be an excellent solution to the problem. The downsides, of course, being that with all your eggs in one basket, if something does go wrong you are screwed. Then again, nothing went wrong and I stored a couple of thousand pictures for less than a top of the line CF card.

Also, most of the portable storage devices come with reinforced and padded carrying cases, so I would guess that they are a bit tougher than MDs, though I don't really know that for sure.

Wade D · December 22, 2005

I just got my 6GB microdrive today and as far as the speed of writing, I notice hardly any difference compared to my Sandisk Ultra II SD card. I plan on leaving it in my camera and downloading with firewire so that might help me from breaking it. Not too worried about the 1D battery drain either

jeff lapoint · December 23, 2005

i've never used a MD myself...guess I've always been scared off by the bashers on the 'net.

I do, like many of us, use a portable image bank in the field though. What's the difference between the HD in my archos vs the MD besides size ect. Still platters suspended by air being written to right?

Been pretty bulletproof for me thus far even though the transfer seems so clumsy in the field. Wonder how many of the big MD haters/experts carry an epson 2000 or similar device out in the field with them

cmr164 · December 23, 2005

Prezwoodz wrote:

Thanks for all the replies and comments guys. When you say look for the experts, well thats why I posted here

I am going to be using my camera for a lot of outdoor photography as well so I guess an MD is not a good idea. Will see how the CF does I suppose!

I have nearly 7 years of using microdrives and all of them are still in use. Two each 340M and 1G and one 4G. On canon's Mark xxx line the MDs are as fast as a 40x CF card on the consumer lines the in camera driver is buggered so the 10D, 20D, 300D, 350D all are wicked slow. Not the MD's fault but a fact non-the-less. As for the fragility... it is a joke. one EU news agency uses MDs exclusively and one reporter at 9/11 and his camera work blown to bits but the MD was still usable. I think the current spec is 1500G for impact.

My real life experience is that over 6 years and 6 cards and more than 50,000 shots, no corruption, no card failures, no pics lost.

As for battery drain... I get 800 shots plus per charge on my 1DMII with a 4G hitachi card. Sometimes so much more on the plus side that i start to worry about my battery indicator.

Art Scott · December 23, 2005

here is a link to a review page on MD's : http://www.hgst.com/portal/site/en/menuitem.a994b57654279b5daa67bca4bac4f0a0/

Hitachi seems to have toughened them up since taking them from IBM. IBM had claimed, that their MD's were fragile and not to be used out in the field by sports or the bluff scaling out door photog as the shock from leaving them in a camera while on a monopod (some of us will use our m-pod as hiking poles) would destroy it.....seems now that the working "g" is around 200 and the non working is approx 2000.....and supposedly the battery dran is much less...(as mentioned above) and with the prices I see on zipzoomfly (link: http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/Search.jsp ) $119 to 209 (before rebates).....well I just might have to make the jump.

MERRY CHRISTMAS, YULE GREETINGS AND A VERY HAPPY PROSPERIOUS NEW YEAR TO ALL.

Wade D · December 23, 2005

I got my 6gb hitachi for $165 from newegg.com after rebate, great deal.

Art Scott · December 23, 2005

Wade D wrote:

I got my 6gb hitachi for $165 from newegg.com after rebate, great deal.

that is about the same as zipzoomfly...and it has free 2nd shipping....there are a lot of good places to buy media.

Velu · December 29, 2005

I had a IBM microdrive for about 1 1/2 year which gave up on me all of a sudden !?
I wouldn't buy one of those ever again.

Rgds
Velu

Microdrive questions.

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