Wow, a package deal?

digital faerie · January 4, 2006

Ok, this all started when my boyfriend who is a slope manager for one of our local ski resorts mentioned that the owner was looking for a photographer to re-do the pictures in their brochure.

*opportunity knocks on the door*

So I called him, introduced myself, and set up a meeting last Monday to discuss pricing, etc. and what I could do for him.

Turns out he wants to use the images for a lot more than just brochures. I had given him a price breakdown for <25,000 brochures, and <50,000 as well. He's looking at 80-100,000 brochures, magazine and newspaper ads across the Southeastern U.S., 5-10 billboards (local, and maybe a couple in Florida and SC), and inserts for tourist publications in the area.

WOW.

Since he had never hired a photographer before (which I knew was evident from the previous photos he had), I educated him on how the process works. He's buying the rights to use the images for a set amount of time (in this case, 1 year from date of delivery of images), and for very specific uses. He likes things simple, and is wanting me to rework a "package deal" of sorts, to throw away the whole breakdown of things (my assignment fee, hourly rate for shooting, post-production, etc. etc.) and give him 1 number.

another WOW.

Obviously he's looking for a deal. And if I were to breakdown all of this with possible total shooting time, uses, etc., we're looking at a dollar amount at least $5,000-10,000 (with the billboards being the largest chunk).

Aaargh, any thoughts on this? It would be nice to land this assignment, especially since it's my first commercial one, and I was wondering what some of you thought. Shay? Andy? others?

I have inside information with the money coming into this place. As an example, they made $30,000 on the tubing run last Saturday.....ALONE. :huh

I had already pointed out to him concerning the brochure prices, that 11 day pass lift tickets covered one scenario I gave him, while 15 tickets covered another. I made it clear to him that I'm a drop in the bucket, but with this package deal, I just don't know.

p.s. sorry if I rambled, I just wanted to get it all out, LOL.

Ann McRae · January 4, 2006

Wowand congratulations! I cannot give any advice regarding photography pricing, but need to caution you on a few assumptions you seem to be making (and I could be wrong so forgive me if I am)

I would guess this figure below is income, not profit - I imagine it costs a lot to run a ski hill - wages, electricity, insurance etc.
Same with the season passes covering the cost of hiring you - what is the actual profit margin on a season pass.

digital faerie wrote:

I have inside information with the money coming into this place. As an example, they made $30,000 on the tubing run last Saturday.....ALONE.

The really pertinent information would be what the ski hill's typical annual advertising budget is, and any stats regarding how effective the campaign will be - that would be more likely to sway me as a business owner - lots of advertising campaigns do bupkiss for the business. FWIW..

ann

Mike Lane · January 4, 2006

First off, that's freaking cool. You seized an opportunity, that's what you should be doing. Now don't drop the ball. First get Pricing Photography, 3rd edition. Then realize that you sell images not the ability to sell images. Don't drop your price because you're a first-timer or because you want to land a deal. The ski place has a need that your photography will satisfy and they should be expected to justly compensate you. Also, don't let them dictate the terms. Will this shooting require travel? Will it require time? Will you need extra equipment? What do you need to keep doing this for a living - future equipment, profits for food and shelter, etc? You aren't gouging him if you ask for a reasonable price, you are making this worth your while.

Best of luck! Remember, your photography is worth paying a fair price for!

digital faerie · January 4, 2006

Ann McRae wrote:

Wowand congratulations! I cannot give any advice regarding photography pricing, but need to caution you on a few assumptions you seem to be making (and I could be wrong so forgive me if I am)

I would guess this figure below is income, not profit - I imagine it costs a lot to run a ski hill - wages, electricity, insurance etc.
Same with the season passes covering the cost of hiring you - what is the actual profit margin on a season pass.

no, you're right, this is a good point, however, I used that as an example because they do SO MUCH up there.

The really pertinent information would be what the ski hill's typical annual advertising budget is, and any stats regarding how effective the campaign will be - that would be more likely to sway me as a business owner - lots of advertising campaigns do bupkiss for the business. FWIW..

and here's the kicker: the ONLY advertising they've done before was a billboard at the bottom of the road. That's it. This is something we've discussed because the resort has a bad reputation of sorts, and they've really worked hard for the past few years to try and change that. I brought it up during our meeting that people were starting to say good things again, but that they needed strong images to really prove otherwise to people, especially to those that never attend this particular resort.

how would you go about getting stats on the potential effectiveness of all this? suggestions? Thanks for your input so far!

digital faerie · January 4, 2006

Mike Lane wrote:

First off, that's freaking cool. You seized an opportunity, that's what you should be doing. Now don't drop the ball. First get Pricing Photography, 3rd edition.

got it.

Then realize that you sell images not the ability to sell images. Don't drop your price because you're a first-timer or because you want to land a deal. The ski place has a need that your photography will satisfy and they should be expected to justly compensate you. Also, don't let them dictate the terms. Will this shooting require travel? Will it require time? Will you need extra equipment? What do you need to keep doing this for a living - future equipment, profits for food and shelter, etc? You aren't gouging him if you ask for a reasonable price, you are making this worth your while.

Best of luck! Remember, your photography is worth paying a fair price for!

yes, I know all that, really I do. I just need to do a breakdown as if that's what I would do, and then give him that as a comparison with the "package price", etc.

I might run that by you guys when I get it done later today.

btw, There's no travel or extra equipment (well, it's about 15 minutes away from my house), etc.

Mike Lane · January 4, 2006

Okay cool. I envy you getting to go out on the slopes and shoot some fun in the snow type pics. Have you got around to thinking about what kinds of shots you want to do yet? Don't forget that snow meters middle gray

I really think the pricing photography book will help you figure out a fee to charge this resort and the terms that you should consider. You sound like you've got things handled.

digital faerie · January 4, 2006

Mike Lane wrote:

Okay cool. I envy you getting to go out on the slopes and shoot some fun in the snow type pics. Have you got around to thinking about what kinds of shots you want to do yet? Don't forget that snow meters middle gray

I really think the pricing photography book will help you figure out a fee to charge this resort and the terms that you should consider. You sound like you've got things handled.

I know exactly what type of shots he's going to want based on his critique of shots some kid took a few weeks ago. As he went through shot after shot, I began to take over the critique just to prove to him that I could see and understand his needs to portray a family-friendly, fun-tastic atmosphere that this resort is trying to promote.

One thing to keep remembering is "get closer", and "tighter on the subject". NO busy lines, try to get shots that include nicely groomed snow, family shots, and kids with instructors, and avoid those backgrounds that are just "dead wood"--unless they have beautiful snow on trees or something. That pretty much covers it.

I'll run my breakdown and "package deal" by you guys later to see what you think. The tough thing is there's market value according to that book, and then there's market value locally speaking. I'm trying to discern the middle ground, I guess.

Thanks again, Mike!

Mitchell · January 4, 2006

Congrats on a great opportunity!

There really is much more to this project than the photography. You ask some great questions regarding the effectiveness of each advertising modality. Does he have a PR firm or graphic designer guiding this project. If so, you will need to coordinate your efforts with this person and get them what they want for their advertising campaign.

If they don't have someone to oversee this project, are you the person they are turning to? Do you have any experience making a quality brochure or billboard design which will be effective and bring in new customers? If not, all of these various ideas may be a waste of money. This is not something to just throw money at without an advertising plan and budget.

I'm glad Ann chimed in about the money you feel this owner is making. It is typical for people to focus only on the receipts he may have on a busy weekend day. The owner pays salaries, taxes, benefits, and worst of all, insurance for his business. I also doubt his ski business is open more than a few months a year down in Carolina! All of this should be thought of before you see the $$$ in this potential venture.

Best of luck!

digital faerie · January 4, 2006

Mitchell wrote:

Congrats on a great opportunity!

There really is much more to this project than the photography. You ask some great questions regarding the effectiveness of each advertising modality. Does he have a PR firm or graphic designer guiding this project. If so, you will need to coordinate your efforts with this person and get them what they want for their advertising campaign.

no pr firm or anything like that. We live in a town that doubles in population when the students are in town,

. His sister does all of his layouts and such and she lives in Florida (me and the resort are in NC). She does a great job for sure, she just hasn't had any good pictures to work with, hehe. If I land the job, I already have plans on contacting her. I also have a feeling that since she works with a graphic design company, she may very well have some experience (or can talk to someone who does) concerning costs of procuring a photographer and what kind of prices they've seen. More than likely, she could very well become an advocate for my prices since they will probably be lower than what her company deals with.

If they don't have someone to oversee this project, are you the person they are turning to? Do you have any experience making a quality brochure or billboard design which will be effective and bring in new customers? If not, all of these various ideas may be a waste of money. This is not something to just throw money at without an advertising plan and budget.

I'm glad Ann chimed in about the money you feel this owner is making. It is typical for people to focus only on the receipts he may have on a busy weekend day. The owner pays salaries, taxes, benefits, and worst of all, insurance for his business. I also doubt his ski business is open more than a few months a year down in Carolina! All of this should be thought of before you see the $$$ in this potential venture.

Best of luck!

as I said before, I'm not assuming anything, I was merely pointing out the money that comes in and out of this place. Here's the thing, this is the first year they've really tried to advertise in a very long time. Word of mouth and reputation was getting them where they needed to go. But over the past decade, they have suffered greatly at the whole mentality of not putting money back into their business to keep it running smoothly, so for the last 3 years, their reputation in particular has suffered greatly. What I'm telling you now comes from my conversation with him and from other people that work there. So in this case, a picture really is going to be worth a thousand words.

They're open from November to March, sometimes April depending on what the weather does.

Thank you for your input Mitchell, good questions as usual. Now I need to go and break this down for comparison and see what I come up with. Anyone else, please feel free to chime in.

4labs · January 4, 2006

I am not chiming in until you post more piccies:D I know nothing about this stuff but I wanted to wish ya luck! Happy New Year too.

digital faerie · January 4, 2006

4labs wrote:

I am not chiming in until you post more piccies:D I know nothing about this stuff but I wanted to wish ya luck! Happy New Year too.

4labs!

well, at least I have been busy, lol. I miss being on here with the challenges and photos, of course, if I land this assignment, I'll be posting plenty of piccies for you guys to tear apart, lol. I'm looking forward to it actually.

Shay Stephens · January 10, 2006

I am just back from vacation :-)

If the customer wants a package deal, then by all means provide one. There is no rule that says the contract has to be itemized. The contract is simply the paper work on what is agreed to by both parties. So if you are happy and they are happy, then, well, happy-happy-joy-joy :-)

If they are not happy, then negotiate by reducing goods or services, swapping things around, whatever still makes you happy and them.

digital faerie wrote:

Ok, this all started when my boyfriend who is a slope manager for one of our local ski resorts mentioned that the owner was looking for a photographer to re-do the pictures in their brochure.

*opportunity knocks on the door*

So I called him, introduced myself, and set up a meeting last Monday to discuss pricing, etc. and what I could do for him.

Turns out he wants to use the images for a lot more than just brochures. I had given him a price breakdown for <25,000 brochures, and <50,000 as well. He's looking at 80-100,000 brochures, magazine and newspaper ads across the Southeastern U.S., 5-10 billboards (local, and maybe a couple in Florida and SC), and inserts for tourist publications in the area.

WOW.

Since he had never hired a photographer before (which I knew was evident from the previous photos he had), I educated him on how the process works. He's buying the rights to use the images for a set amount of time (in this case, 1 year from date of delivery of images), and for very specific uses. He likes things simple, and is wanting me to rework a "package deal" of sorts, to throw away the whole breakdown of things (my assignment fee, hourly rate for shooting, post-production, etc. etc.) and give him 1 number.

another WOW.

Obviously he's looking for a deal. And if I were to breakdown all of this with possible total shooting time, uses, etc., we're looking at a dollar amount at least $5,000-10,000 (with the billboards being the largest chunk).

Aaargh, any thoughts on this? It would be nice to land this assignment, especially since it's my first commercial one, and I was wondering what some of you thought. Shay? Andy? others?

I have inside information with the money coming into this place. As an example, they made $30,000 on the tubing run last Saturday.....ALONE. <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/eek7.gif" border="0" alt="" >

I had already pointed out to him concerning the brochure prices, that 11 day pass lift tickets covered one scenario I gave him, while 15 tickets covered another. I made it clear to him that I'm a drop in the bucket, but with this package deal, I just don't know.

p.s. sorry if I rambled, I just wanted to get it all out, <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/Laughing.gif" border="0" alt="" >.

USAIR · January 12, 2006

digital faerie wrote:

4labs!

well, at least I have been busy, lol. I miss being on here with the challenges and photos, of course, if I land this assignment, I'll be posting plenty of piccies for you guys to tear apart, lol. I'm looking forward to it actually.

Can't wait either to see what you come up with
The ski resort is lucky to have you as their photog

Fred

Art Scott · January 12, 2006

digital faerie wrote:

Ok, this all started when my boyfriend who is a slope manager for one of our local ski resorts mentioned that the owner was looking for a photographer to re-do the pictures in their brochure.

*opportunity knocks on the door*

So I called him, introduced myself, and set up a meeting last Monday to discuss pricing, etc. and what I could do for him.

Turns out he wants to use the images for a lot more than just brochures. I had given him a price breakdown for <25,000 brochures, and <50,000 as well. He's looking at 80-100,000 brochures, magazine and newspaper ads across the Southeastern U.S., 5-10 billboards (local, and maybe a couple in Florida and SC), and inserts for tourist publications in the area.

WOW.

Since he had never hired a photographer before (which I knew was evident from the previous photos he had), I educated him on how the process works. He's buying the rights to use the images for a set amount of time (in this case, 1 year from date of delivery of images), and for very specific uses. He likes things simple, and is wanting me to rework a "package deal" of sorts, to throw away the whole breakdown of things (my assignment fee, hourly rate for shooting, post-production, etc. etc.) and give him 1 number.

another WOW.

Obviously he's looking for a deal. And if I were to breakdown all of this with possible total shooting time, uses, etc., we're looking at a dollar amount at least $5,000-10,000 (with the billboards being the largest chunk).

Aaargh, any thoughts on this? It would be nice to land this assignment, especially since it's my first commercial one, and I was wondering what some of you thought. Shay? Andy? others?

I have inside information with the money coming into this place. As an example, they made $30,000 on the tubing run last Saturday.....ALONE. <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/eek7.gif" border="0" alt="" >

I had already pointed out to him concerning the brochure prices, that 11 day pass lift tickets covered one scenario I gave him, while 15 tickets covered another. I made it clear to him that I'm a drop in the bucket, but with this package deal, I just don't know.

p.s. sorry if I rambled, I just wanted to get it all out, <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/Laughing.gif" border="0" alt="" >.

If I were to be looking at this I would not care for what purpose (brochure or billboards..that is the ad agency's prob) but would primarily work on the amount of actual photos he truly wants.....does he want to have a rotating file of photos to constantly choose from..etc, etc....
How many hours ($5-10,000 SOUNDS A TAD LOW) do think it will take to get photos done (make a list of everything you need to complete the job), how many hours photoshopping (would it be better to have an assistant), CD or DVD files, will you need any new glass [do some experimenting prior to giving last proposal)...what format (probably Tiff and Cmyk especially for the big stuff), will you need a scaling program (to get stuff to billboard size)..this is a start...as for $/ hours..DO NOT SHORT CHANGE YOURSELF.....this is a huge undertaking for ANY photog so be sure to MAKE MONEY......make sure that you get all digital copies (cd / dvd) returned after the ad campaign or use a format that has an expiration time onit (flip album pro).....PROTECT YOUR WORK and make sure YOU CAN OFFER THE SAME PICS (FINE ART PHOTOS) FOR SALE ANYTIME....AND YOU GET FIRST STAB AT NEXT YEARS CAMPAIGN FOR MORE MONEY.....but do not work for free...Make a decent profit or it could burn you out.....

GOOD LUCK......OH YEAH <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/thumb.gif" border="0" alt="" >

Dee · January 12, 2006

Depending
on exactly how much control you want, the designer and pre-press house will probably work hand in hand to convert your RGB images to CMYK, so I wouldn't worry about that.

Depending on which press is running the job, the CMYK specs will change since they are produced for the paper and the press running the job.

Also the CMYK specs may change for the billboard, for example. You definitely want to keep a "master" image somewhere very safe of every photo they use.

I would suspect, that you will need to supply the client with a CD/DVD of your RGB images and the various designers in charge of the other collateral will convert your image to the size, dpi, and color space they need.

If you can, try to negotiate a photography byline in the brochure at least. And if your images are being used in a website, a link to your site would be good. Be sure that your copyright is somewhere on the brochure and website if at all possible.

Also, be sure to embed your copyright information in your file before you hand it off to the client.

wxwax · January 12, 2006

I have a question based on what you say he wants. It's nothing to do with the pricing.

Will you be shooting customers who are using the facility, in order to get your "happy family" images? If so, and the images will be used for commercial gain, you might want to check into the rights issues for using their likenesses. Do their lift tickets in some way give the resort permission?

bham · January 12, 2006

Good point wxwax. Yes if the lift tickets don't give you permission, you may need to have them budget some free lift tickets for a family willing to sign a waiver or cost add in the cost of compensating models for the images.

digital faerie · January 13, 2006

wxwax wrote:

I have a question based on what you say he wants. It's nothing to do with the pricing.

Will you be shooting customers who are using the facility, in order to get your "happy family" images? If so, and the images will be used for commercial gain, you might want to check into the rights issues for using their likenesses. Do their lift tickets in some way give the resort permission?

oh yeah, this was a major point in my discussion with him during our meeting and one of my first questions since there are MINORS all over the brochure. He thought he had verbage on the lift ticket....he doesn't. The only photo release they have is the form parents have to fill out for the children to participate in their instruction program---that's it!

I told him he was taking a major risk by using people's likenesses in commercial exploitation, and he was leaving himself wide open for a lawsuit. And that I would not snap a picture without having a Hawksnest-specific model release on-hand for people to sign, which I could easily reference the photo #'s on the form itself for my own reference.

Like I said before, he had never hired a photographer, and was quite surprised to learn of the legal risks he was taking. Thanks to our discussion, though, he immediately grabbed a lift ticket and put a note on it to add the necessary legal verbage for future use.

digital faerie · January 13, 2006

USAIR wrote:

Can't wait either to see what you come up with
The ski resort is lucky to have you as their photog

Fred

I'm still waiting to hear back. I came to a happy medium between a dollar amount he can be happy with, and an amount of work I can be happy with.

Limitations included # of photos and for 1 year only, as well as website exposure for myself (either watermarked photos with a link, or a separate gallery on their website under my credit), as well as a clearly-spelled out reuse fee for the pictures should he decide to continue using them in his advertising campaign.

Seeing as how we're coming up on MLK weekend, they're going to be insanely busy right now, so I'm not expecting to hear back anytime soon. And he has to get approval from his father I suspect, the big honcho on the mountain.

digital faerie · January 13, 2006

Update
aaargh, just got an e-mail today. He has not gone through a stack of mail so has not seen my proposal. He asked in the e-mail:

"Do you have a price for just taking a day of pictures and I own what you have taken? I spoke to my sister in South Florida and all her clients do their photos by just paying for the photographer's time."

he's basically asking for exclusive rights here is he not? this just changed the ballgame. and the price dramatically, which knowing him, he's not going to go for. This has just changed everything.

wxwax · January 13, 2006

Ownership isn't exclusive. You can own and he can own (for uses specified in the contract.) Shouldn't be a deal breaker.

Is the 1-year thing your sticking point?

digital faerie · January 14, 2006

wxwax wrote:

Ownership isn't exclusive. You can own and he can own (for uses specified in the contract.) Shouldn't be a deal breaker.

Is the 1-year thing your sticking point?

I believe usage for one year after the price I gave him is more than fair for the usage he wants......and after being so specific with him about it, it just seems to me he wants to own the images free and clear forever, to do with however he wishes. :uhoh I've asked him to clarify though.

mercphoto · January 14, 2006

digital faerie wrote:

I believe usage for one year after the price I gave him is more than fair for the usage he wants......and after being so specific with him about it, it just seems to me he wants to own the images free and clear forever, to do with however he wishes. :uhoh I've asked him to clarify though.

I have to admit that I myself am puzzled by the pricing structure of professional photography, though I am learning. What this guy wants is for you to provide a service - photograph this, that, and the other - and he wants to pay you for that. What he does not understand is why it should cost him more for you to take the very same photo just because he happens to do something different with it. In his mind it does not make sense. To his mind its like buying a CD for one price to listen in his home, but paying an extra cost to also play it in his car.

Somehow you need to explain why the photography is priced the way it is. From my meager understanding it is value-priced, not cost-priced. As the use of an image has more value to him it will cost him more to use it in that valuable way. Maybe also explain that if uses it in a particular high-value way why it should cost him more -- what extra work does that knowledge of use cause for you to deliver an image for that use?

My explanation is surely as poor as my understanding of pricing photography. But in a nutshell your client is wanting simplicity (can you blame him?). I want to pay X for a photograph and then I simply want to use it. If all else fails give him such use, but of course, price it high.

There is fundamentally nothing wrong with giving him images for any use he wants for any length of time if you can both agree to a price. You seem hung-up on not giving him unfettered use without considering a price that would make you both happy with that. Can I ask why you are fundamentally opposed to unlimited use?

digital faerie · January 14, 2006

mercphoto wrote:

I have to admit that I myself am puzzled by the pricing structure of professional photography, though I am learning. What this guy wants is for you to provide a service - photograph this, that, and the other - and he wants to pay you for that. What he does not understand is why it should cost him more for you to take the very same photo just because he happens to do something different with it. In his mind it does not make sense. To his mind its like buying a CD for one price to listen in his home, but paying an extra cost to also play it in his car.

Somehow you need to explain why the photography is priced the way it is. From my meager understanding it is value-priced, not cost-priced. As the use of an image has more value to him it will cost him more to use it in that valuable way. Maybe also explain that if uses it in a particular high-value way why it should cost him more -- what extra work does that knowledge of use cause for you to deliver an image for that use?

My explanation is surely as poor as my understanding of pricing photography. But in a nutshell your client is wanting simplicity (can you blame him?). I want to pay X for a photograph and then I simply want to use it. If all else fails give him such use, but of course, price it high.

There is fundamentally nothing wrong with giving him images for any use he wants for any length of time if you can both agree to a price. You seem hung-up on not giving him unfettered use without considering a price that would make you both happy with that. Can I ask why you are fundamentally opposed to unlimited use?

the biggest reason I am opposed to giving him unlimited use for an unlimited number of time is the potential income lost to me in the future. He's already gotten a GREAT deal for the package, and now he wants to scrap the 1-year permissable usage clause for basically nothing.

basically, there's a certain market value for an image being used for a billboard, and another value for the image being used in a magazine layout. A national magazine ad will be more expensive than a local billboard. I have explained this to him.

the reason I'm frustrated is because I know he wants to get everything as cheap as possible. In the end, I have to be able to sleep at night regardless of whether he accepts my proposal or refuses it. I also have a hard-time believing that his sister's company just pays photogs for their time and they get unlimited usage for the photos? pleeeze.

Because if that truly is the case, then his sister's company isn't dealing with very smart business-oriented photogs in my opinion.

I guess it comes down to one point. If he sees the figure I propose for his package deal and thinks it is too high, then of course, he's not going to go for an even higher priced unlimited usage for an unlimited amount of time kind of price either. Right now, I just have to wait and see.

thanks for responding!

Art Scott · January 14, 2006

Don't do it...if his sister is getting her photos this way she is definitely using photogs that are uneducated in business and it doesnot take a MA in business to see he is trying to steal from you.

I hope you made it clear you will retain ownership and will use for you personal use also....the Model releases....only give him copies...not the originals......keep those for your protection.

There are tons of them on the internet to download and use.

Good luck.

wxwax · January 14, 2006

It's all about the price.

If he wants unlimited rights to use the images, that's fine. But it's more than you originally proposed, and he should pay more.

mercphoto · January 14, 2006

digital faerie wrote:

the biggest reason I am opposed to giving him unlimited use for an unlimited number of time is the potential income lost to me in the future. He's already gotten a GREAT deal for the package, and now he wants to scrap the 1-year permissable usage clause for basically nothing

I can understand that. But you must realize that he has no concern over your potential income. He is concerned with his business, not yours.

basically, there's a certain market value for an image being used for a billboard, and another value for the image being used in a magazine layout. A national magazine ad will be more expensive than a local billboard. I have explained this to him.

The martket value is whatever the market can agree to. He's not agreeing to what you are considering market value, thus the market has not agreed upon the use and fees of these particular images to this particular client. What you do not seem to grasp is that even though "the market" seems to have a general value for these photos used for particular types of use HE DOES NOT. And he is not going to pay more than he feels something is worth. To him you are asking him to pay one price to listen to that CD in his home only, and an additional cost to listen to that CD in his car. He is balking at this.

the reason I'm frustrated is because I know he wants to get everything as cheap as possible.

That frustrates you? Seriously? You're joking, correct? So I assume you pay full retail for your camera gear (and always buy local, of course), pay retail for your clothing, your food, you don't negotiate with the car dealer, haggle the price on your home, hire a full-service broker instead of a discount broker...

I had the potential here in Austin to get a client who also wanted dirt cheap photos. The guys are real a**holes and want everything on the cheap. But big freakin' deal. I don't want to sell photos that cheap, they don't want to pay what I ask for, so they simply don't get my photos. Where is the cause for frustration in this?

A good friend and co-worker of mine is also a real estate agent in a three-person team. They got photos of themselves for their business cards, fliers and advertising and promotional needs. They got these photos from an established local professional photographer, not some new guy or some guy who doesn't know how to make money at photography. And my buddies paid one fee for those photos. They use them for any purpose for any length of time. They don't pay extra to use them in a marketing brochure, for example.

mercphoto · January 15, 2006

Having a second look at my reply has convinced myself that I did not come across as intended. And no, I haven't been drinking tonight either! Would be a convenient excuse however.

I guess I'm trying to figure out the exact source of the frustration. If the frustration is the client doesn't want to pay for the photography according to historical norms, the problem with that is that times change. It used to be customary to pay a monthly fee plus a per-check fee for a checking account at a bank, for example. Now very few people find this acceptable. If the source of the frustration is the client wants the same deal his sister in Florida does then that is his problem, if for no other reason that he is also not in Florida.

One thing to find out is what is the quality of those cheap photos? Can you see them and point out why yours would be better, and therefore, worth more money to them?

Or worse, are they wanting to buy a Chevy, and you are trying to sell them a Cadillac? If that's the case they will never drive off the lot with your car.

If the source of the frustration is that the cost the client is willing to pay makes you work for pennies on the hour in post-processing, travel time, on-site time, that is something to explain to the client. They either wish to pay or they won't. And the client might not even believe it takes that much time to create a final finished photograph in the first place.

Whatever you do however, don't take anything the client is doing as a personal attack on yourself. Its all business, nothing more.

digital faerie · January 15, 2006

mercphoto wrote:

Having a second look at my reply has convinced myself that I did not come across as intended. And no, I haven't been drinking tonight either! Would be a convenient excuse however.

glad it wasn't just me then.

I guess I'm trying to figure out the exact source of the frustration. If the frustration is the client doesn't want to pay for the photography according to historical norms, the problem with that is that times change. It used to be customary to pay a monthly fee plus a per-check fee for a checking account at a bank, for example. Now very few people find this acceptable. If the source of the frustration is the client wants the same deal his sister in Florida does then that is his problem, if for no other reason that he is also not in Florida.

One thing to find out is what is the quality of those cheap photos? Can you see them and point out why yours would be better, and therefore, worth more money to them?

Or worse, are they wanting to buy a Chevy, and you are trying to sell them a Cadillac? If that's the case they will never drive off the lot with your car.

If the source of the frustration is that the cost the client is willing to pay makes you work for pennies on the hour in post-processing, travel time, on-site time, that is something to explain to the client. They either wish to pay or they won't. And the client might not even believe it takes that much time to create a final finished photograph in the first place.

Whatever you do however, don't take anything the client is doing as a personal attack on yourself. Its all business, nothing more.

I'm not taking anything personal and I don't think I've said that either.

1. he's never hired a photographer
2. he's clueless when it comes to this stuff regarding the whole gamut of an advertising campaign.
3. yes, I've looked at the other photos and no they aren't "wow" or "great" or even all that interesting. We both sat there for half an hour looking at some of the photos he has been using over the years critiquing and laughing at most of them, so I know he can appreciate the difference between a good photograph and an outstanding one.

4. they've suffered from having a bad reputation over the past few years which stems from poor grooming of the slopes (now they have new equipment), improper lift equipment (they're finally going to buy a new one for next season), and not a lot of equipment in their snowboard park (they now have lots of new stuff to break your bones on,

).

I've told him what people have said when it comes to the resort and they need to wow people. A picture's worth a thousand words, and in this case, could be worth thousands of dollars in increased revenue from increased patronage. People want to see groomed snow and a family atmosphere. Most people don't even know they have a great program for kids.

Having said that, this is still in process, and I have to feel good about what I've offered him, and will continue to sleep through the night if he says no. I'm hoping we can meet again to discuss it further face to face instead of e-mails. So far, he seems to be a bit of a distracted type. I plan on going up there Monday or Tuesday to get some shots of my boyfriend and his friends snowboarding. Maybe that will seal the deal. I don't know.

mercphoto · January 15, 2006

digital faerie wrote:

I'm not taking anything personal and I don't think I've said that either.

I think I've been misreading your rants then.

Hmmm... back to the scotch for Bill!

JimM · January 15, 2006

DF- Can I ask how much experience you have in shooting these types of photos? How many have been used for advertising?

My thought is, if advertising photography is your business and you have been doing it for a while and have an expansive portfolio to prove it.... by all means stick to your guns.

If it is not, work a deal and have him pay you for your time. This will build your portfolio and put some money in your pocket. It might also generate some referrals.

You need to know that there is always going to be a photographer that is willing to work for less for the experience or to build their portfolio. This could even be someone like a very talented professional wedding photographer that wants to get further in the comercial/advertising photography business.

I know I am just starting out charging for my work, so I would strike a deal (and have been). I want to build my portfolio and my business. Provide a good service and more business is sure to come!

Wow, a package deal?

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