Pana DSLR - The DMC1 + Leica Vario Elmarit 14-50mm

harjtt · February 26, 2006

If you guys and girls haven't heard Panasonic intro'd their new 4/3 DSLR today. I've held off for a couple of years from replacing my FZ10 (I'm still learning) and was just waiting to see how Pana/Leica replace the old LC1 before commiting to a new cam (the Sony R1 does appeal but I just don;t like its ergonomics):

Here's a pic of the cam.

Will I be buying this cam - you bet I will! Hopefully, It'll be a camera that I can grow into and use my FZ10 as a backup. No idea of the price but hopefully, its not that much more than the Oly E330 which is priced at £700-800.

Links if your interested:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06022609panasonicdmcl1.asp#specs

http://www.dcresource.com/news/newsitem.php?id=3274

And a video over at imaging resource:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/EVENTS/PMAS06/PMAS06VIDEO.HTML

Cheers

HarjTT

:thumb:D:clap

mynakedsoda · February 26, 2006

I have to say that this is the most interesting (to me) announcement I've seen yet. I assume that Panasonic will have a whole lineup of lenses they'll develop or they'll farm out developement to someone else? Of course the Oly lenses should work since it's the "open standard" 4/3 mount but I'd love to see some fast primes at reasonalbe prices myself. For the first time I believe this might be a real possibility.

mynakedsoda · February 26, 2006

Just noticed but look at the switch marked Mega OIS. I wasn't going to say anything about that "Leica" lens because I'm generally unimpressed by Leica these days. Just about any Coke bottle bottom seems to have "Leica" on it. They screwed up when they started licensing out the name IMO. It doesn't mean what it used to. The Mega OIS thing seems interesting though. The first reviews will tell whether we have another lens that deserves to be called a Leica or not.

mynakedsoda · February 26, 2006

More interesting (system wise) than the Panasonic is this...
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06022611sigma43rds.asp
I was just wondering about a high speed prime, go over to DPReview to look at announcements and now see the 30mm 1.4 will be available. Looks like Sigma will give alot of folks what Oly hasn't yet.

Add the 150mm 2.8 Macro lens and it seems that the 4/3 system is finally starting to make some sense.

Ric Grupe · February 26, 2006

Yes, this does look interesting. Seems more intuitive for quick logical control. I'll bet that lens is a honey too!

Something says it's going to be pricey.

Particularly if you wait for the Leica version.

Bob Bell · February 26, 2006

Its a natural progression for them. They had the Lumix P&S line with leica lenses. I am glad that someone is putting leica in another format.

swintonphoto · February 26, 2006

Bob Bell wrote:

Its a natural progression for them. They had the Lumix P&S line with leica lenses. I am glad that someone is putting leica in another format.

Amen to that!

Bob&Glennie · February 26, 2006

mynakedsoda wrote:

More interesting (system wise) than the Panasonic is this...
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06022611sigma43rds.asp
I was just wondering about a high speed prime, go over to DPReview to look at announcements and now see the 30mm 1.4 will be available. Looks like Sigma will give alot of folks what Oly hasn't yet.

Add the 150mm 2.8 Macro lens and it seems that the 4/3 system is finally starting to make some sense.

I recently bought a Sigma 55-200 for my Oly 4/3 system. So far it's every bit as good to my eye as the Zuiko offerings.
That 50-500 looks interesting and a 150 macro! Those end up being the traditional equivilent of 100-1000mm and 300mm macro on the 4/3 system.
Does anybody have any idea when these Sigma's will be available in Canada???

Bob

Matthew Saville · February 27, 2006

harjtt wrote:

...No idea of the price but hopefully, its not that much more than the Oly E330 which is priced at £700-800.

Cheers

HarjTT

D

I'm sorry my friend, but the L1 will be probably up around $2000. Justifiably so if image quality is absolutely breathtaking. We can expect the Leica lens to delier on it's end, but the sensor is still in question. Let's hope Panasonic pulls out all the stops, delivers a fantastic sensor in a fantastic camera, and prices it under $2000.

And personally, I hope that Olympus releases their E-2 or E-3 ASAP, cause now I'm really eager to see where they go with their newfound Sigma offerings!

I am already VERY jealous of Oly's dust buster and their "weather proofed" bodies, but I never looked twice because the sensor just wasn't up to my tasks... But now with the Sigma 150mm doing double duty as a 1:1 macro (and mind you, 1:1 on a 2x crop sensor would appear 2:1 if enlarged onto a 35mm sensor) ...AND a super-fast 300mm f/2.8! (FOV not DOF) ...Except without the enormous 6+ lbs of weight that a 35mm / FF shooter needs to hit 300mm f/2.8, mind you. WOW!

If Olympus could come out with an E-1 replacement that sports a fantastic 8-12 megapixel sensor with up-to-par ISO 100, I would jump aboard without hesitation. The fact that I could also buy that crazy-expensive Leica OIS zoom or that oh-so-sexy panasonic body someday when "I have arrived" is irresistible, too. (and Zeiss + Nikon = lenses I have no interest in; silly f/1.4 MF primes that I have no use for...)

It's a shame that the larger companies (Nikon and Canon) are never going to embrace the "gimmick" technology like the SSW filter, (or Foveon) nor will we ever see a "retro" style, "simpler is better" kind of body from a 3rd party, I fear.

I'll probably have to stick with Nikon & Canon because their sensors may always be above and beyond the competition, and there will probably be a few small issues that I just can't let go of like viewfinder size or ergonomic preferences, but I still am very eager to see what happens in the Olympus camp (and the Sigma camp!) in the coming year...

-Matt-

marlof · February 27, 2006

Matthew Saville wrote:

I'm sorry my friend, but the L1 will be probably up around $2000.

So far all I've seen about this price point is rumor. And if it's true, it'd be for the L1 plus lens. I don't think the Pana body will be that expensive (it's a reshuffled E-330, with the analog shutter ring on top and an extra control on the back, but sans the fold out preview screen). What the price point of the Pana/Leica lens will be I don't know.

mynakedsoda wrote:

I'm generally unimpressed by Leica these days. Just about any Coke bottle bottom seems to have "Leica" on it.

I don't exactly agree on the Leica lenses: sure, some of the P&S have Leica branded lenses where you can doubt the quality. But all reviewers seem to agree that for instance the lens on the LX-1 and the LC-1 are better than many others in their lineup. Let's hope that this one lives up to it's name. If it is weather sealed, I might even replace my not too shabby Digital Zuiko 14-54 with it.

I just don't get why they didn't go with a foldout screen on the L1. It limits the usefulness of the Live Preview, and the E-330 might have the edge there. Not the same classic looks as the Pana sibling though, and sure, that counts.

nzmacro · February 27, 2006

Its different and its interesting. Certainly will be following this one and the format appeals in more ways than one. Looking good so far and it doesn't start with a "C" or an "N"

:

Danny.

mynakedsoda · February 27, 2006

Matthew Saville wrote:

I'm sorry my friend, but the L1 will be probably up around $2000. Justifiably so if image quality is absolutely breathtaking. We can expect the Leica lens to delier on it's end, but the sensor is still in question. Let's hope Panasonic pulls out all the stops, delivers a fantastic sensor in a fantastic camera, and prices it under $2000.

If the kit price of it is even as high as $2000 then I predict it will be on the market a very short time. With the body only price of the entry level Pentax being less than $500 now then it just wouldn't make sense. I know that Panasonic doesn't (hopefully) intend this to compete against entry level bodies but it isn't unreasonable to assume it won't be at the same performance level as the mid to high end.

Matthew Saville wrote:

And personally, I hope that Olympus releases their E-2 or E-3 ASAP, cause now I'm really eager to see where they go with their newfound Sigma offerings!

I am already VERY jealous of Oly's dust buster and their "weather proofed" bodies, but I never looked twice because the sensor just wasn't up to my tasks... But now with the Sigma 150mm doing double duty as a 1:1 macro (and mind you, 1:1 on a 2x crop sensor would appear 2:1 if enlarged onto a 35mm sensor) ...AND a super-fast 300mm f/2.8! (FOV not DOF) ...Except without the enormous 6+ lbs of weight that a 35mm / FF shooter needs to hit 300mm f/2.8, mind you. WOW!

1. Doesn't Canon and Nikon have "weather proofed" bodies also?
2. Can you explain the appear 2:1 part? I'm lost on that one.
3. Being a high quality 300mm 2.8 at a economical price point I can agree with.

Matthew Saville wrote:

If Olympus could come out with an E-1 replacement that sports a fantastic 8-12 megapixel sensor with up-to-par ISO 100, I would jump aboard without hesitation. The fact that I could also buy that crazy-expensive Leica OIS zoom or that oh-so-sexy panasonic body someday when "I have arrived" is irresistible, too. (and Zeiss + Nikon = lenses I have no interest in; silly f/1.4 MF primes that I have no use for...)

Funny how your assuming better performance than Oly is able to achieve. I actually assume the exact opposite or just as good if using the exact same sensor.

Your comments on the Zeiss primes, I wonder why it is that you have no use for a 1.4 MF prime. Do you feel the same way about the Nikon AF 1.4 primes? Is it just that you can't (or don't want) to use MF?

Matthew Saville wrote:

It's a shame that the larger companies (Nikon and Canon) are never going to embrace the "gimmick" technology like the SSW filter, (or Foveon) nor will we ever see a "retro" style, "simpler is better" kind of body from a 3rd party, I fear.

I'll probably have to stick with Nikon & Canon because their sensors may always be above and beyond the competition, and there will probably be a few small issues that I just can't let go of like viewfinder size or ergonomic preferences, but I still am very eager to see what happens in the Olympus camp (and the Sigma camp!) in the coming year...
-Matt-

So you think SSW is a gimmick? Keep in mind I agree. Funny how millions of users of DSLR's without SSW manage to get on with life.

Canon and Nikon will always have better performing sensors. Hopefully things will come to the point eventually that the limits of performance are so hight that even Oly or Panasonic can have sensors that are good enough.

As far as VF size, just because a body has a crop sensor doesn't necessarily mean it must have a poor VF.

mynakedsoda · February 27, 2006

marlof wrote:

I don't exactly agree on the Leica lenses: sure, some of the P&S have Leica branded lenses where you can doubt the quality. But all reviewers seem to agree that for instance the lens on the LX-1 and the LC-1 are better than many others in their lineup. Let's hope that this one lives up to it's name. If it is weather sealed, I might even replace my not too shabby Digital Zuiko 14-54 with it.

I just don't get why they didn't go with a foldout screen on the L1. It limits the usefulness of the Live Preview, and the E-330 might have the edge there. Not the same classic looks as the Pana sibling though, and sure, that counts.

I wonder if there is a reason that Leica's rangefinder lenses cost thousands of dollars while you could get an entire LC1 so cheap? If this were a Leica camera then I'd expect more from the lens. I really hope that some reviewer proves this not to be the case but given recent history I'm expecting as good performance as you'd see from a comparable Oly lens with OIS as a bonus and hopefully a sane price point.

Believe it or not I really don't care if it's weather sealed or not. I was shooting some yeterday with my ancient Nikon 135mm 2.8 AIS in a light rain and it along with my ancient (in digital) D100 did fine once again. I also took apart one of Nikon's cheapest AF primes Saturday (pulling the mount and metering circuitry for another lens I am building) and was amazed at how that even though it isn't advertised as weather sealed, it doesn't seem anything short of complete submersion would have an effect on it's mechanical operation or optics other than the outside of the front element.

The biggest thing (to me) about the Leica lens is the apeture ring on it.

marlof · February 27, 2006

mynakedsoda wrote:

I wonder if there is a reason that Leica's rangefinder lenses cost thousands of dollars while you could get an entire LC1 so cheap?

There's a difference between Leica Solms, and Leica Japanasonic, I agree on that. But read the reviews on the LX-1 and the LC-1, and you'll see that Leica Japanasonic ain't too bad compared to other lenses in its class. All reviews I've seen are raving about those lenses. That's all I wanted to say, that compared to others in the same price class (although the LC-1 was a bit lonely in its class) the Leica lenses on the Panasonic bodies didn't do too bad. Not that they rivalled the M-range. That would be plain silly to suppose.

kini62 · February 27, 2006

marlof wrote:

So far all I've seen about this price point is rumor. And if it's true, it'd be for the L1 plus lens. I don't think the Pana body will be that expensive (it's a reshuffled E-330, with the analog shutter ring on top and an extra control on the back, but sans the fold out preview screen). What the price point of the Pana/Leica lens will be I don't know.

I don't exactly agree on the Leica lenses: sure, some of the P&S have Leica branded lenses where you can doubt the quality. But all reviewers seem to agree that for instance the lens on the LX-1 and the LC-1 are better than many others in their lineup. Let's hope that this one lives up to it's name. If it is weather sealed, I might even replace my not too shabby Digital Zuiko 14-54 with it.

It seems to be reworked 14-54 with OIS. I bet it is one in the same. So unless you need or want the OIS you won't gain much. Just a guess

Gene

mynakedsoda · February 27, 2006

marlof wrote:

There's a difference between Leica Solms, and Leica Japanasonic, I agree on that. But read the reviews on the LX-1 and the LC-1, and you'll see that Leica Japanasonic ain't too bad compared to other lenses in its class. All reviews I've seen are raving about those lenses. That's all I wanted to say, that compared to others in the same price class (although the LC-1 was a bit lonely in its class) the Leica lenses on the Panasonic bodies didn't do too bad. Not that they rivalled the M-range. That would be plain silly to suppose.

What do you think about the possibility of it being a reworked Oly lens? If so then I'll say it's official that Leica has lost it's corporate mind. If not and it can improve on the performance of the Oly at a reasonable price point then I'd say that it was a real winner.

mynakedsoda · February 27, 2006

kini62 wrote:

It seems to be reworked 14-54 with OIS. I bet it is one in the same. So unless you need or want the OIS you won't gain much. Just a guess

Gene

Even if that's the case I'd still pay a small premium over the Oly for a real apeture ring and OIS. Small being less than $400.

marlof · February 28, 2006

mynakedsoda wrote:

What do you think about the possibility of it being a reworked Oly lens?

With an added aperture ring? Added OIS? With a different range? With a different elements setup (Oly 14-54: 15 elements in 11 groups, including 3 aspherical elements; Leica 14-50: 16 elements in 12 groups, including two aspherical lenses)? I don't think so. They might have started from the 14-54 design for all I know, but I think so much has changed that these will be two different animals. Having the 14-54 Digital Zuiko I wouldn't think it'd be a bad point to start from btw...

On the aperture ring: it only works on the Panasonic body. You'll still have to use the wheels on the Olympus bodies. Also the OIS only works in both mode 1 (full time OIS) on the Olympus bodies, whereas mode 2 (only OIS when the shutter is pressed) also works on the Panasonic body. In some reviews, people say mode 2 is the most effective, but I've read that some Panasonic FZ users said it didn't make that much of a difference.

Anyhow, to get the fullest out of this lens, you'd probably need to get the Pana to go with it. And I'm not sure if that's what I'd want, even when with a dedicated aperture ring, a dedicated shutter wheel, and an additional rotating wheel under your thumb, this might be a sweet setup.

But I've read things on DPNow.com about the Panasonic that were not only joy. I don't know if I really like the way they've implemented the Live View. So I'll wait for in field test reports before I'd make up my mind on getting an E-330 or the L-1. But I sure hope that these developments help to support the four thirds system.

Duckys54 · February 28, 2006

the back side
which is why i like it

pepperell · February 28, 2006

apeture ring and ISO dial... why aren't more dslrs coming out like this?

David_S85 · February 28, 2006

pepperell wrote:

apeture ring and ISO dial... why aren't more dslrs coming out like this?

My brain is forever hardwired to think in the way it learned SLR's years and years ago. ISO dial. Shutter Dial. Aperture ring. It makes as much sense now as it did then. I still can't get used to where these are on my 20D.

cmason · March 1, 2006

Pricing posted
Edit: ignore this: apparantly the new camera is the DMC-L1, not DMC-LC1, and they look almost identical, but are not...

Pricing is now posted on Panasonic's website: $1599

Lumix® 5 Megapixel Digital Camera with Leica DC Vario-Summicron Lens

Though what is odd that the copy talks about "3.2x zoom, and 3x digital zoom", which is just strange on a camera with a replaceable lens...perhaps they are gunning for the EVF crowd, not the dSLR crowd?

Matthew Saville · March 1, 2006

cmason wrote:

Edit: ignore this: apparantly the new camera is the DMC-L1, not DMC-LC1, and they look almost identical, but are not...
Pricing is now posted on Panasonic's website: $1599

Lumix® 5 Megapixel Digital Camera with Leica DC Vario-Summicron Lens

Though what is odd that the copy talks about "3.2x zoom, and 3x digital zoom", which is just strange on a camera with a replaceable lens...perhaps they are gunning for the EVF crowd, not the dSLR crowd?

Yeah, you'd think they'd name their cameras a little less similarly? Theres the LX1, the LC1, and now the L1. Good grief...

nzmacro · March 1, 2006

Matthew Saville wrote:

Yeah, you'd think they'd name their cameras a little less similarly? Theres the LX1, the LC1, and now the L1. Good grief...

Yeah, I see what you mean. Canon D30, D60, 10D, 20D, 30D. All makes perfect sense

Must be in the "D"

Danny.

Pana DSLR - The DMC1 + Leica Vario Elmarit 14-50mm

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