First time D-SLR recommendations?

Redhed · August 26, 2006

Hello all! I am a college student majoring in Photojournalism and I'm about to take my first PhotoJ class. I've decided to finally treat myself to a wonderful D-SLR but I have no clue which one to get. I've been looking at the Canon Rebel XT mostly, but should I wait for the XTi? Should I look at any other models?

I want a good camera, but I don't want to burn a hole in my bank account. I definitely want a Canon so I can rent out Canon accessories from my school. I have experience with point-and-shoot digitals, SLR-like digitals, and film SLRs. I would be using this camera mainly for school assignments and then probably get something nicer once I graduate. It doesn't need to be top-of-the-line, but I don't want something outdated either. Any ideas?

Anyone have an old Canon D-SLR up for sale?? I've been stalking eBay lately...should I look anywhere else for used or relatively cheap new cameras?

Thanks!

claudermilk · August 26, 2006

It depends on whether the new features are important to you. I personally don't think going to 10MP is that great of an upgrade (same size sensor, so mallr pixels & more potential for noise; Canon's playing with fire there). The Rebels are considered a great start for DSLRs.

Other places to look: KEH has a lot of used equipment. Fred Miranda forums has a hyper-active Buy & Sell forum. B&H and Adorama have a used section (though much smaller than KEH).

GraphyFotoz · August 27, 2006

claudermilk wrote:

It depends on whether the new features are important to you. I personally don't think going to 10MP is that great of an upgrade (same size sensor, so mallr pixels & more potential for noise; Canon's playing with fire there). The Rebels are considered a great start for DSLRs.

Other places to look: KEH has a lot of used equipment. Fred Miranda forums has a hyper-active Buy & Sell forum. B&H and Adorama have a used section (though much smaller than KEH).

Most of my equipment came from FM's Forsale Forum. NEVER A PROBLEM!

I'd say watch for a Canon 20D or a 10D with low actuations for a good price. Plenty of 10D's around FS cuz people are opting up for a 30D.
My starter camera has been my 10D and I'm plenty happy with it.
I got it this time last year for $550 sh inc with 2800 actuations on it.

Lil cheaper than a XT and better built. It's all in what ya want and what ya got to spend.

Good luck with your search Red!

Redhed · August 27, 2006

What exactly is the difference between the 20D and the Rebel XT? I did a side-by-side comparison on dpreview and didn't see much difference!

jdryan3 · August 27, 2006

Redhed wrote:

What exactly is the difference between the 20D and the Rebel XT? I did a side-by-side comparison on dpreview and didn't see much difference!

The Rebel line is plastic, while the others are magnesium ( I believe the 10D is). I had the original 300D (6.3mp) Rebel and loved it to learn on. Very similar to the Rebel film, but digital. Creative zones, P, A, T B modes. The differences to look at are the buffer (how many pix can be held while writing to the flash card), fps or frames per second (the 30D has a larger fps, and is popular with action & sports photogs).

I upgraded to the 5D and it does not have a built in flash. No biggie for me, but if you need it, verify the ones you are looking at have it. Finally, with XTi coming out, you may find some great deals on the XT. I agree taht the 10mp is nice, but not that big of a jump from the 8 on the XT. Put your money in better lenses - they will last MUCH longer than camera bodies.

Not that you asked

but I would get the XT body and the Canon 28-135 IS USM lens. Check out Fred Miranda for reviews. Another excellent lens is the 50mm f/1.8 - only $75. Good Luck!

ziggy53 · August 27, 2006

Redhed wrote:

What exactly is the difference between the 20D and the Rebel XT? I did a side-by-side comparison on dpreview and didn't see much difference!

Redhed,

The XT is an entry level dSLR, with a less durable chassis and less durable shutter. The 20D/30D models also shoot up to 5 Frames-Per-Second in continuous mode versus the XT at 3 FPS. The 20D/30D goes to ISO 3200 and the XT goes to ISO 1600.

The XT has a single rotary control for shutter/aperture, selectable with a button. I think the 20D/30D uses a slightly different method that others find preferable.

Those are major points I can think of. Hopefully others will comment.

Both cameras are very capable. I have the XT and I'm very happy with the image quality as well as general operation.

ziggy53

Scott_Quier · August 28, 2006

Redhed wrote:

What exactly is the difference between the 20D and the Rebel XT? I did a side-by-side comparison on dpreview and didn't see much difference!

Another, and to my mind MAJOR, difference that was almost touched on is the SPEED of the buffer. It will dump the photos to the memory card MUCH faster than the Rebel and, I think, the Rebel XT.

I shoot exclusively in RAW format and the difference is very noticable. RAW is probably not going to the be format of choice for PJ, but it's something to consider if there is any chance you will be doing something other than just PJ work.

claudermilk · August 28, 2006

Look harder. There are a lot of differences in the specs. What is more subtle has been mentioned here: speed, the magnesium chassis vs plastic, finally what hasn't been mentioned is the controls--totally different. Take a good look at the product shots of the backs & tops of the cameras. This difference is one big thing keeping me waffling on the wifey/backup cam between a Rebel & 10D.

Oh, one other thing is size & weight. The Rebel is smaller & lighter--not necessarily a good thing IMHO.

Redhed · August 28, 2006

Hey all...thanks for the info! I think I'm going to stick to the Rebel line simply because it's cheaper and I don't plan to use the camera enough to justify spending more $$. I've been stalking eBay lately...most of the XT's come with a "kit" lens...18-55mm. Should I go for that or is it smarter to buy the body and a different (50mm?) lens? Remember, this is for amateur occasional use, mostly photojournalism stuff.

Also...everyone says to check out fred miranda, but the forum registration has been down for days. I have some time before I need to buy the camera, so I'll keep trying!

claudermilk · August 29, 2006

Keep at it with FM; it's a much more reliable place for used than fleabay. Also keep an eye on KEH's stock.

Redhed · August 29, 2006

Well here's a turn of events...I just found out that I have a somewhat large amount of money in my name from my grandmother that I can use toward a camera. So now I'm thinking up on the higher end! My teacher recommended a 30D...any ideas? (I don't want to spend a ton, but I can go a few hundred higher now)

GraphyFotoz · August 29, 2006

Redhed wrote:

Well here's a turn of events...I just found out that I have a somewhat large amount of money in my name from my grandmother that I can use toward a camera. So now I'm thinking up on the higher end! My teacher recommended a 30D...any ideas? (I don't want to spend a ton, but I can go a few hundred higher now)

Hey now that's where I'd go!

Stay away from kit glass.....it's always junk!!
You want a great basic replacement get a Canon f1.8 50mm.

erich6 · August 30, 2006

Redhed wrote:

Hey all...thanks for the info! I think I'm going to stick to the Rebel line simply because it's cheaper and I don't plan to use the camera enough to justify spending more $$. I've been stalking eBay lately...most of the XT's come with a "kit" lens...18-55mm. Should I go for that or is it smarter to buy the body and a different (50mm?) lens? Remember, this is for amateur occasional use, mostly photojournalism stuff.

Also...everyone says to check out fred miranda, but the forum registration has been down for days. I have some time before I need to buy the camera, so I'll keep trying!

The kit lens is perfectly fine for your purposes. It provides pretty good image quality. The only drawback is that the build quality is not as sturdy as some of the more expensive lenses but you just need it to keep you going through school! (It's also a pretty good focal length range).

The additional benefit of the 20D/30D over the XT is that the 20D/30D has a 9-zone autofocus as opposed to the XT's 7-zone focus. The 20D/30D also has slightly better noise performance.

The XTi has the 20D's 9-zone autofocus and a larger LCD. The 9-zone autofocus will give you a bit more creative control for selective focus (and it should be more accurate). Even though it has more pixels the noise is expected to be about the same as the XT. I would wait for it if you don't need it right away for your class.

Erich

Scott_Quier · August 30, 2006

erich6 wrote:

The kit lens is perfectly fine for your purposes. It provides pretty good image quality. The only drawback is that the build quality is not as sturdy as some of the more expensive lenses but you just need it to keep you going through school! (It's also a pretty good focal length range).

Erich

Erich is right about the kit glass, in terms of it being a very useful focal length range.

It is not top drawer (or even close) and many people consider it a throw-away. Be aware, if you go this route (I don't recommend it, but...) that this lens suffers quite sever light falloff in the corners at one end or the other of zoom range - can't remember which end it was when I tested my brother's lens.

I can strongly recommend the Tamron 28-75 f/2.8. I have actually shot with two different copies of this lens (mine and my brothers) and both have proven to be superb.

subzero · August 30, 2006

Hi Redhed and all,

I bought my Canon EOS 350d in July this year and have been a happy user since. However, if you think of buying an EOS too, I would say you'd better forget about the kit lens and buy yourself a Tamron 28-75 mm mentioned by Scott_Quier or - if you want a wider angle - Tamron 17-50 mm f/2.8 - the difference between the kit lens and the Tamrons is huge. You may be interested in looking at this test (make sure you click the link at the bottom of that message):
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=19736637&q=tamron+kit&qf=m

Cheers,
subzero

ziggy53 · August 30, 2006

Redhed wrote:

Well here's a turn of events...I just found out that I have a somewhat large amount of money in my name from my grandmother that I can use toward a camera. So now I'm thinking up on the higher end! My teacher recommended a 30D...any ideas? (I don't want to spend a ton, but I can go a few hundred higher now)

I would stay with the dRebel XT as the camera of choice, and choose better glass for the extra money. The images from the dRebel are very similar to the images from the 30D when comparing the same lenses. The differences are mainly durability and size.

You will notice the improvement in image quality more with better quality lenses than you ever will the difference in camera bodies.

I am extremely pleased with the Sigma 18-50mm, f2.8.

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=14651
http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=147535&postcount=32
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=29694

Many images here:

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=32855

Note that this is the same range zoom as the "kit" lens, and that is because that range is very useful for interior and scenic work.

If you use the PSAUG06 code at B and H, the dRebel XT is $635USD.
The Sigma 18-50mm, f2.8 is $360 at Sigma4Less.

You will probably also need a flash. The best value, IMHO, is the Sigma EF-500 DG Super E-TTL flash ~ $205 (Sigma4Less).

You might still pick up the Canon 50mm, f1.8 ~ $75 (imported, B&H) for low-light work and even some portraiture.

That should cover many of your short work needs. For longer work, either bring big money, or accept some compromise in quality. I still use a fairly cheap (used) Tamron 75-300, although I wish I had gotten the Tamron 70-300mm f4-5.6 LD instead.

ziggy53

mwgrice · August 30, 2006

ziggy53 wrote:

I would stay with the dRebel XT as the camera of choice, and choose better glass for the extra money. The images from the dRebel are very similar to the images from the 30D when comparing the same lenses. The differences are mainly durability and size.

You will notice the improvement in image quality more with better quality lenses than you ever will the difference in camera bodies.

ziggy53

What do you need to look for to make sure that the lenses you buy will work with other bodies in the Canon line? If you upgrade later to a camera with a full size sensor (e.g., a 5D or whatever its equivalent is in 5 years), will they still work? (Assuming Canon doesn't add some new technology in the meantime that ruins compatibility.)

claudermilk · August 30, 2006

You just need to look out for the EF-S lenses. Those only work on the 1.6x crop bodies (Rebels, 20D, 30D, IIRC 10D, D60). If your get the regular EF lenses you're fine. Some 3rd party lenses have limitations as well (example, from my reading the Tokina 12-24 will physically fit but will vignette under 17mm). The kit lens is an EF-S, BTW.

ziggy53 · August 30, 2006

mwgrice wrote:

What do you need to look for to make sure that the lenses you buy will work with other bodies in the Canon line? If you upgrade later to a camera with a full size sensor (e.g., a 5D or whatever its equivalent is in 5 years), will they still work? (Assuming Canon doesn't add some new technology in the meantime that ruins compatibility.)

It surely looks like both Canon and Nikon are firmly entrenched and committed to the 1.6/1.5 crop form-factor. Five years from now, there will still be a tremendous number of users with crop cameras and a ready market for used lenses for the crop cameras. I shouldn't worry about the problem that Canon caused switching from the FD bodies to the EOS. That will probably occur again in around 10-15 years or so.

I do predict that someday, there will be no electrical contact between camera and lens (you heard it here first). There will be optical coupling for communications, and focused induction for power. Electrical contacts are not perfectly reliable, so companies will find ways around and beyond that technology.

Continue to think of camera and lens as tools and you will have the right concept. Cameras and lenses are not good investments, even though some turned out that way.

What would happen to Leica film camera values if film production ceased? Not only can that happen, it will happen.

So if you want a FF camera for its properties, then buy a FF camera and FF lenses. Otherwise, buy a crop camera and lenses according to their properties on that camera body, unless you really have plans to purchase FF shortly.

ziggy53

Justiceiro · August 30, 2006

I got a chance to compare my 20D with a friends 30D this last weekend during a wedding/Garden party (we weren't the photogs).

Here is my $0.02 cents.

If you are doing PJ;
avoid the 10d or the Digital rebel. The big disadvantage is startup time. The 20d and the XT start up in 0.2 seconds, from cold to actually shooting. This is essentially "instant." If you try to do PJ with a 10d, you will lose shots while waiting for the camera to turn on.

Also, the XT is not nearly as durable as the 20D/30D. PJ can get rough, and it sounds like this is going to be a working camera, so drop alittle more for the better controls and the magnesium chassis.

The 30D is, in my opinion, a waste of money. The write time to the card is slightly faster, and the buffer is a bit larger, but unless you are shooting RAW sports photos I don't think that it really matters. I have never lost a shot with my 20D because I was waiting for the camera's buffer to catch up. The larger LED is simply for chimping. These things are not worth the extrra $300. If I was buying now, I would buy the 20D again- although the fact that its $400 cheaper now would be nice.:cry

I saw a EXG 20d available on KEH this morning for $900 and change. That's crazy cheap.

The $300 you save should be spent on a nice lens. That's almost half of the cost of a 17-40 L, which you should probably get.

I think ziggy said it (and if so, he's right) the glass is what makes the photo, more than the body. the difference between 8mp and 10mp is nothing compared to the quality of the glass. So buy good glass.

And remeber to write your grandmother a thank you note!

Redhed · August 30, 2006

Okay, so I'm seeing a trend of people recommending to stick with the XT and just use the extra money to get a better lens. I guess that makes sense since the lens is really what makes the photo.

So...anymore recommendations on lenses and where I can buy them for reasonable prices? Remember, this is for school work, so I don't need anything TOO fancy just yet!

Justiceiro · August 30, 2006

Redhead, I really don't recommend the XT. At this point the difference in price between a 20D and an XT is only a few hundred dollars.

Check out this link.

This is not an absolute recomendation, however. Let me put it this way, I would rather shoot an XT with L glass than a 20D with a kit lens.

However, choosing between a 20D with good Sigma lenses, and an XT with L glass is tougher.

Simga may be a better value than the canon L glass (some will scream and howl that it's not, but many of them have the advantage of very deep pockets).

Don't take any of this too seriously. If you get an XT with a good lens, you will be happy. But if you get a 20d with a good lens, you will be happier.

cmason · August 30, 2006

I am not sure I would go that far...I prefer my XT over the 20D.

The bottomline is this: once you understand what features are important, and which are not to you, then you need to take both cameras IN YOUR HANDS.

The most significant difference in these two is size and layout. You need to go hold them, take some shots, look thru the viewfinder, and see which you would rather use to take photos.

Personally, I like the size and weight of the XT over the 20D. There are many things I value in the 20D over the XT, but I love the compactness of the XT. Now, I am not 6'3", 230 lbs either, so there is that.....

ziggy53 · August 30, 2006

Redhed wrote:

Okay, so I'm seeing a trend of people recommending to stick with the XT and just use the extra money to get a better lens. I guess that makes sense since the lens is really what makes the photo.

So...anymore recommendations on lenses and where I can buy them for reasonable prices? Remember, this is for school work, so I don't need anything TOO fancy just yet!

Redhed,

To be clear, I believe that lighting is "the" most important factor about quality photography. Do not underestimate the power of lighting control. Sometimes a flash can make the difference between "getting the shot" and getting disappointed.

I was the night and weekend photographer for the local paper years ago, and electronic flash, and its proper use, can make a photograph possible, in the worst cases, and it can make a photograph better, in many other cases.

ziggy53

GraphyFotoz · August 30, 2006

Justiceiro wrote:

Redhead, I really don't recommend the XT. At this point the difference in price between a 20D and an XT is only a few hundred dollars.

Check out this link.

This is not an absolute recomendation, however. Let me put it this way, I would rather shoot an XT with L glass than a 20D with a kit lens.

However, choosing between a 20D with good Sigma lenses, and an XT with L glass is tougher.

Simga may be a better value than the canon L glass (some will scream and howl that it's not, but many of them have the advantage of very deep pockets).

Don't take any of this too seriously. If you get an XT with a good lens, you will be happy. But if you get a 20d with a good lens, you will be happier.

BRAVO!!!
You hit the nail on the head there Just!!
I use Sigma's and I'm completely happy with em.
Everyone keeps trying to push me twards L glass also but I just plain can't afford it!
Nothing against anyone here but there are some of us who have a limited budget.
I'm sure canon L's are super but at $1000 and up....many of us just don't have that kinda chump change!

pathfinder · August 30, 2006

Graphy,:):

Lighting, natural or created, is what makes great pictures.

Lenses are much less important. This statement comes from the owner of multiple L lenses, so I can say this with emphasis. Learn to use the tools you have. Develop a better 'eye!!

Better pictures will follow!!:):

No, I won't give up my optics

, but now one knows better than me that great glass is no guarantee of great photos. A better eye and better skills will help create better photos.

Justiceiro · August 30, 2006

pathfinder wrote:

This statement comes from the owner of multiple L lenses, so I can say this with emphasis.

Braggart!:D

Steve Cavigliano · August 30, 2006

A day late and a dollar short

But I agree with Ziggy and PF. It's all about the light. With great light, you can use a pinhole camera and get awesome results. Conversely, in poor light even an $8000 camera and a $4000 lens may not be able to cut the mustard.

I believe my pictures went to the next level (that's the level that's one up from the bottom....lol) once I started to literally "see the light". I now look at the quality and amount of light and how it reflects/plays off my subject. Versus, just composing and firing away at a subject that looks pretty or interesting. I believe I receive validation of this philosophy each day when viewing pics. Most of the more memorable pics I view are memorable because of the lighting captured. Not necessarily the subject captured

Steve

pathfinder · August 30, 2006

Justiceiro wrote:

Braggart!:D

You will notice I list nothing in my Sig!!

I still shoot with a G5 from time to time.:):

Light, not lenses is what counts.

Jeffro · August 30, 2006

pathfinder wrote:

You will notice I list nothing in my Sig!! I still shoot with a G5 from time to time.:):

Light, not lenses is what counts.

maybe so, but you still dream of a 400mm f2.8........

Swartzy · August 30, 2006

I agree with many of the posts here
It really is about light, developing your eye and mastering your camera for every shot. One of the reasons I continue to shoot with an A620 is that even for a small lens, it does a terrific job. Using this camera forces me (because of it's limitations) to get creative and master the machine. I've taken probably 10,000 pictures with the A620 and at least another 10,000 with my old A40 (2 Mpx). I experiment with manual, AP, Priority and every mode other than the "green".

Now is the time for a DSLR as I have new things I wish to accomplish that a larger lens will afford. I'll personally go with the new XTi when it hits the shelves and start with a good 50 mm 1.4 or 1.8. As a student myself (though a tad bit older....ha!) I would like something that would serve me well as my skills improve and something that will grow with me. There are lenses and then there are lenses but I've found out experientially what these seasoned photographers have mentioned. It's all about the light, the eye and mastering the camera in hand.

Good luck in school and finding the camera that fits your needs. Thanks Grandma, you've made the day!

First time D-SLR recommendations?

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