Can the “buy this photo” be removed on a gallery?

jdouglass@jfti.com · October 5, 2006

I put up a few galleries of photos from a drag race I went to over the weekend. I never intended to sell them and I don’t make ant money if they are sold. So I was shocked to see the comment I just got concerning my photos.http://johndoug.smugmug.com/gallery/1952409
I just got this comment today.
I am the Director of Communications for IHRA-Live Nation Motorsports. Your posting of these galleries from the President's Cup Nationals is in violation of our licensing agreement with BME Photography. You must remove these "for sale" galleries immediately. Your refusal to do so will result in my turning over this matter to Live Nation's legal department and they will be in contact with you. This is a courtesy warning from me. The next time our legal staff in Aurora, Ill. will be getting involved. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me at 419-660-4213.

Thank you for your attention,
Michael Perry, IHRA Director of Communications
mperry@ihra.com

Has anyone else had a similar threat from anyone? And what did you do? Am I responsible or is smugmug? How can they tell me what I can and can’t sell?

Andy · October 5, 2006

jdouglass@jfti.com wrote:

I put up a few galleries of photos from a drag race I went to over the weekend. I never intended to sell them

Yep - go to customize gallery and turn printing to "no"

Andy · October 5, 2006

jdouglass@jfti.com wrote:

Has anyone else had a similar threat from anyone? And what did you do? Am I responsible or is smugmug? How can they tell me what I can and can’t sell?

You are responsible, and yes we get such notices from time to time. It's up to you to have the right to sell and display what's on your site. If they have a legitimate claim, they can ask you to not sell, and even remove the photos. It's good you are working it out with them.

jdouglass@jfti.com · October 5, 2006

I removerd the "Buy This Photo" So all should be good now. Thanks.

dogwood · October 5, 2006

and...

Andy wrote:

You are responsible, and yes we get such notices from time to time. It's up to you to have the right to sell and display what's on your site. If they have a legitimate claim, they can ask you to not sell, and even remove the photos. It's good you are working it out with them.

Let me add, their request/warning seems very polite. It's always nice when someone gives you an easy out if you accidentally step on their toes. You might even write them back explaining what happened and assuring them it was an innocent, unintentional error just to clear the air.

ballentphoto · October 5, 2006

jdouglass@jfti.com wrote:

I removerd the "Buy This Photo" So all should be good now. Thanks.

I wonder if they are ok with you giving out the original image for free (you have save original on your site) hehehe Were you a spectator or were you there under some press pass? Not that I am a lawyer but unless there was something on the ticket (assuming that you paid to get in) I do not understand how they can tell you, that you cannot sell an image that you took. And how did they find you anyway? You could cut them into some of the action too say 5% and sell the images.

I mean were they removing people's cameras as they were entering?

Guess the safe thing was to stop the selling of the images, but I do not think that they would win that law suit... but you would probably be out many thousands of $$$ fighting it

Again I am NOT a lawyer, maybe some one who is could give us a little more info

jdouglass@jfti.com · October 5, 2006

ballentphoto wrote:

I wonder if they are ok with you giving out the original image for free (you have save original on your site) hehehe Were you a spectator or were you there under some press pass? Not that I am a lawyer but unless there was something on the ticket (assuming that you paid to get in) I do not understand how they can tell you, that you cannot sell an image that you took. And how did they find you anyway? You could cut them into some of the action too say 5% and sell the images. I mean were they removing people's cameras as they were entering? Guess the safe thing was to stop the selling of the images, but I do not think that they would win that law suit... but you would probably be out many thousands of $$$ fighting it Again I am NOT a lawyer, maybe some one who is could give us a little more info

I was a spectator, and I took all of my photos from the grand stand where hundreds of others were also taking photos and some with pro gear. I used a D-50 and cheap lenses. Nothing was printed on the back of the ticket, and nothing on the IHRA web site or the tracks site. Not sure how they found out. I will call the guy tomorrow and ask what's up and how he thinks he can enforce this.

sirsloop · October 5, 2006

I think its BS... you PAID to go to the event and cameras are allowed. You have every right to take those photos and sell them for whatever you want. They are YOUR photos. If the IHRA does not want rouge amateur photos, then ban cameras at the events. Its like going to Disney world and being told by the Disney legal department 6 weeks later that you cannot post a photo of mickey mouse online.

I'll remind all of my drag racing buddies to not attend any IHRA sanctioned events at Old Bridge Raceway park next season. I'll skip those events as well. I hope M. Perry sees this - Someone is getting carried away with their job.

jdouglass@jfti.com · October 5, 2006

sirsloop wrote:

I think its BS... you PAID to go to the event and cameras are allowed. You have every right to take those photos and sell them for whatever you want. They are YOUR photos. If the IHRA does not want rouge amateur photos, then ban cameras at the events. Its like going to Disney world and being told by the Disney legal department 6 weeks later that you cannot post a photo of mickey mouse online.

I'll remind all of my drag racing buddies to not attend any IHRA sanctioned events at Old Bridge Raceway park next season. I'll skip those events as well. I hope M. Perry sees this - Someone is getting carried away with their job.

Ths is all I found on IHRA.com

Photographers
IHRA has an official photographer to provide and sell photos to the racers. IHRA issues photo passes for race and media coverage only. Any photographer selling photographs at or of an IHRA event will have their credentials permanently revoked

sirsloop · October 5, 2006

exactly what credentials do they plan on revoking?

dogwood · October 6, 2006

jdouglass@jfti.com wrote:

I was a spectator, and I took all of my photos from the grand stand where hundreds of others were also taking photos and some with pro gear. I used a D-50 and cheap lenses. Nothing was printed on the back of the ticket, and nothing on the IHRA web site or the tracks site. Not sure how they found out. I will call the guy tomorrow and ask what's up and how he thinks he can enforce this.

I'm not a lawyer-- just a photographer. I'm not sure if there are recognizable faces in any of your images, but basically, if there are and you're selling them for commercial purposes (ie not editorial), you need a signed release from everyone who is recognizable in the photo. The reason for this is basically the right to privacy. Believe it or not, images of private property may also require a release for commercial (ie selling for a profit) use.

Before you raise a stink, you might want to check out "Business and Legal Forms for Photographers" by Tad Crawford. Or join your local ASMP chapter. Both are excellent sources of legal info regarding photos and how you can legally sell them.

sirsloop · October 6, 2006

Explain how celebrities get their photo taken 1000 times a day without a hassle. A lot of the drivers that race NHRA are celebrities to us. I got GREAT shots of Warren Johnson a few months back. I was thrilled!! - better than hanging out on the Jets sidelines with Joe Namath and Adam Sandler! Legal or not, I think its really lousy for the IHRA to go after an obvious fan just for taking a few photos. I don't think he has a Pro account... prints were "for sale" at cost prices.

Being a drag racer myself, I think pretty highly of our group. I've always had great time at NHRA events, and all of the track crews have been super at events where I was driving. Just ticks me off to see some dude behind a keyboard giving the sport a bad name. Its real bad PR.

I'm no lawyer either. IMHO, if the venue openly allows photography then its open season to take photos. Obviously you can't bring in a booth and start advertising, but that doesnt mean you have to give up your right to shoot photos on that property. This IHRA dude's job is to actively search for amateur photographers that have IHRA footage, and smother it. The less free footage out there, the more money they can make on their stuff. They should just ban cameras at the events if they are going to handle it this way. Instead they will end up losing attendance because they pissed off a bunch of loyal fans that are freely promoting their events.

dogwood · October 6, 2006

sirsloop wrote:

Explain how celebrities get their photo taken 1000 times a day without a hassle.

"The right of publicity is the right which a celebrity creates in his or her name, image, and voice. To use the celebrity's image for commercial gain violates this right of publicity." pg. 91, Business and Legal Forms for Photographers.

Like I said, I'm just a photographer, not a lawyer. I tend to consult legal references and attorneys when I have legal questions, not an internet forum. I can't recommend ASMP or "Business and Legal Forms for Photographers" enough. The fact is, there ARE times when the use of a celebrity image is going to land you in court. It all depends on what you do with the image.

If you're going to use an image commercially, be smart. Get a signed release. All the debate in the world won't help you one bit if someone (celebrity or otherwise) decides they don't want you using their image commercially and you don't have a release.

Dna · October 6, 2006

dogwood wrote:

"The right of publicity is the right which a celebrity creates in his or her name, image, and voice. To use the celebrity's image for commercial gain violates this right of publicity." pg. 91, Business and Legal Forms for Photographers.

I believe that this means that you cannot use the photo to advertise something, you can sell the photo for profit.
If you take their photo when they have a reasonable expectation of privacy, then they can sue you.

Dna

(pro photographer, armchair lawyer ..

)

dogwood · October 6, 2006

Dna wrote:

I believe that this means that you cannot use the photo to advertise something, you can sell the photo for profit.
If you take their photo when they have a reasonable expectation of privacy, then they can sue you.

Dna

(pro photographer, armchair lawyer .. )

Hence the commercial use wording. It can be a little fuzzy, though, in terms of selling the photo for profit and you're right, it would end up depending on how the photo was used. For example, if you sold it to People magazine, that would be considered editorial use. If you sold it to someone who just put it on their fridge to look at, again probably no big deal. But if they put it on the side of a Maxwell House coffee tin to sell coffee-- well then it could be a big deal!

Back to the OP-- I think the organizers just want to ensure photos taken are for personal use (ie "Check out this photo of this dragster, kids!" and not "Hey Wheaties, want to buy this dragster photo?")

Anyways, event organizers can get away with the craziest things-- wasn't there a stadium during the world cup this year that banned the wearing of leggings with a beer company logo on them because the beer company wasn't the official world cup beer? Something like that-- and the stadium actually made people remove the leggings before they entered the stadium!

Here's a great resource for all us armchair lawyers (except of course when we get pulled over for speeding, then we all turn into full-blown lawyers!):

http://www.photoattorney.com/

sirsloop · October 6, 2006

I have no problem abiding by any rules at the event or venue. Its private property, and you are their guest. Their rules. Same stuff happens at clubs, bars, and malls. People are not allowed to wear hats, bandanas, ect because its gang signs sometimes.

jdouglass@jfti.com · October 6, 2006

sirsloop wrote:

I have no problem abiding by any rules at the event or venue. Its private property, and you are their guest. Their rules. Same stuff happens at clubs, bars, and malls. People are not allowed to wear hats, bandanas, ect because its gang signs sometimes.

Their Rules were
not on the ticket
not posted at the gate
not on the IHRA web site
not on the tracks web site

dogwood · October 6, 2006

jdouglass@jfti.com wrote:

Their Rules were
not on the ticket
not posted at the gate
not on the IHRA web site
not on the tracks web site

Doesn't matter. Go to a shopping mall and start shooting photos. I'll bet you no where does it say you can't shoot photos, but it's private property and they can make you stop if they want. The first amendment generally doesn't apply to private property-- just public property. Keep in mind, these same rules mean if someone comes onto your own property and starts shooting photos or making a speech, you can stop them. But at the same time, if your friend comes onto your property and wants to shoot a portrait of you, you can let them. Just pointing out that it goes both ways.

rich56k · October 6, 2006

Back to the original subject.....

jdouglass@jfti.com wrote:

Their Rules were
not on the ticket
not posted at the gate
not on the IHRA web site
not on the tracks web site

John,
I agree with both Andy & Pete......
I have been shooting Drag Racing (mostly motorcycles) out on the West Coast (All of Ca, some Az) and my experience is you'll get a lot further approaching any/all venues well in advance and inquire as to their particular procedure/requirements
regarding photographers.. the larger org's such as NHRA (and also IHRA now that i've checked thier site) don't offer much opportunity to the aspiring folks, they've either already contracted out photo services (IHRA)
or only allow editorial use (NO sales - period: NHRA) and you better be from a major pub to boot...(or try NFL, Nascar,ect..)
Its just the way it is....however if you play your cards right opp's still exist,
most smaller events will grant media access with signing of liability releases - and the right attitude....(honey will get you MUCH further than vinegar) - As Pete mentioned...its their event, they make the rules .....
Also, heres the Media Page from IHRA website -
click on "media" from list on their home page, or this link....
http://ihra.com/media.html

Hope this helps....
rich
http://www.HooliganUnderground.com
http://rich56k.smugmug.com

rich56k · October 6, 2006

jdouglass@jfti.com wrote:

I was a spectator, and I took all of my photos from the grand stand where hundreds of others were also taking photos and some with pro gear. I used a D-50 and cheap lenses. Nothing was printed on the back of the ticket, and nothing on the IHRA web site or the tracks site. Not sure how they found out. I will call the guy tomorrow and ask what's up and how he thinks he can enforce this.

John,

This could be how they found out....
( you made the Top 10!!)
rich
http://www.HooliganUnderground.com

Can the “buy this photo” be removed on a gallery?

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